Rolling road remap or wideband AFR pros n cons

[blaze_away]

Good news, ....
Finally with a lot of brainwork testing Rovergauge Tunerpro and help from you brilliant folks I have finally fixed my overly rich running.
Main contributors were.
Bad earth on the ECU for MAF/LAMBDAS etc It was the braided shield cable that that earths to main earth bolt LHS of tunnel just below the radio.
Slow MAF with dirty sensor cleaned with maf cleaner dilute phosphoric acid.
A dodgy lambda probe
Corroded throttle pot wire

Now I have all the gear to read/write/modify and burn new eeproms for the 14cux and am running with one of stevesprints maps.

So I am now at a crossroads and wondering which way to go.

I could go to Joolz for a remap but if I then make some mods I would need to go again so should I fit a wideband lambda and do my own remapping.

What do you think folks ?

[Classic Chim]

What sort of mods Frank.

Does the CUX support wide band?

I’d be inclined to spend a day with a Joolz and as you have an interest he’s likely to pass on much useful knowledge.
He’s a top chap that’s for sure.

If you feel you can do the mapping for cold starts etc then why not have a go.
You can keep your existing maps saved so just revert back if things go out of tune.

After watching a number of tuning videos which is only touching the surface but the same things come up time and again which is AFR and Volumatic efficiency.
Get these two right with fuelling and timing and your on your way.

I buy some knock sensing cans if I was going anywhere near timing changes.

Look up ( HP High Performance academy ) on Facebook or YouTube for some really informative vids on using the tuning software which is very similar on loads of Ecu.

I’ll be able to understand Jason navigating around the Mbe software now just from those vids.
Your far more advanced a scientist so you’ll probably know already.
Ben from HP deliberately leans off or retards ignition in a set area then shows you how to read and then effect the fuel tables/ timing etc and what numbers your looking for.
It’s all quite logical it seems.

Go for it

[blaze_away]

Good points. I am thinking 20AM 72 mm and bigger trumpets.

14CUX doesnt do wideband so you run Rovergauge and wideband simultaneously then merge the data and produce a new map from that composited data.

I think you're right Joolz first then do wideband as well.

[Classic Chim]

blaze_away said:

Good points. I am thinking 20AM 72 mm and bigger trumpets.

14CUX doesnt do wideband so you run Rovergauge and wideband simultaneously then merge the data and produce a new map from that composited data.

I think you're right Joolz first then do wideband as well.

That sound very reasonable.

Money well spent as I’m sure you’ll only ever be a call away from good advice.

Obviously the problem is changing the fuel tables at higher revs as keeping the throttle say 3/4 open for any length of time will mean very high speeds.
Bouncing about in the car trying to adjust each cell up there in the danger zones,,, hmmm.
Rolling road sounds a bit safer

Thrilling stuff this mapping for sure.


Oh,,, well done by the way....

[Belle427]

Have you considered going megasquirt?
From what I’ve researched it can be diy fitted for under £1000 and loaded with a base map to get you going. Can be mapped yourself with a bit of reading up and comes with lots of support out there.
By the time you have spent money on mapping the existing system and fitting the 20 am you are not going to be a million miles away.

[blitzracing]

A few basics. The 14CUX wont support wideband, so you can only use one with a gauge on the dash to see whats going on. If you are sticking to the catalyst map, you have to remove the lambda correction as it gets in the way, so the easiest thing to do is to copy the white map into the green map, and see whats going on with the AFR gauge. I simply put a clear sheet over the RoverGauge map on my PC, and drove up the road with a passenger (my 9 year old daughter) shouting rich or lean for various load conditions, so she marked the cells R or L. I then altered the cells in tuner Pro and repeated the process until I was happy. I stuck with the green map as its far superior to the white tune, but I dont legally need a catalyst anyway. If you are sticking to the white, you need to tune the green to 14.7 in the closed loop area, before you copy the map back into the white. There is some clever data collection software that merges the AFR output from the gauge serial output with the map locations and required AFR, so all you do is drive, and it works it all out for you, but I think you still have to alter the map manually. Personally Im very happy with the manual results, the car runs really well now and im seeing 31 MPG on a run that's a real plus point as my wallet does not bleed each time I turn the key. You dont need to get over complex on this, just tweak the cells you need to, and leave all the other settings as they are. I did lift my idle to 900 rpm which is an easy fix in tuner Pro.

Edited by blitzracing on Tuesday 3rd April 13:18

[blaze_away]

Hi belle427 I have considered that and might go that way oneday but want to get the best I can out of whats there now. Thanks for the suggestion.

[blaze_away]

Blitzracing....that is very interesting and a big plus for WB install. Thanks for that.

[jazzdude]

blaze_away said:

Good news, ....
Finally with a lot of brainwork testing Rovergauge Tunerpro and help from you brilliant folks I have finally fixed my overly rich running.
Main contributors were.
Bad earth on the ECU for MAF/LAMBDAS etc It was the braided shield cable that that earths to main earth bolt LHS of tunnel just below the radio.
Slow MAF with dirty sensor cleaned with maf cleaner dilute phosphoric acid.
A dodgy lambda probe
Corroded throttle pot wire

Now I have all the gear to read/write/modify and burn new eeproms for the 14cux and am running with one of stevesprints maps.

Great work

Out of interest, what info did you glean off rovergauge to come up with all those faults and then fixing them?

My car is going back on the road after a winter refresh this weekend and if you recall I was also having appalling fuel consumption.

Turns out my injectors were quite messy when I took them to be cleaned and with my timing not being right, I am hoping that my cleaned out injectors and refreshed and retimed ignition might have done the trick.

I have had conversations with Steve and Mark (Blitz) after studying the thread on here on modifying the 14cux and like you also started with burning maps onto chips and using green tune.

A very helpful Joolz also recommended to me to fit a WB but more importantly also to get the Moates system as well which I understand let's you make modifications on the fly, ie you can write modifications to the chip without pulling it out. Steve also suggested this and with tuner pro it is a setup which can be done without a rolling road, although as was said for WOT setting a RR would be safer.

Apart from the high fuel consumption, last year I really liked the way the car drove on one of Steve's maps and green tune, no shunting and very smooth.

The trouble is with this and the 14cux, financially and time wise, adding a WB and gauge, all the hardware and software for the mapping, you then will find that you also need a 123 tune dizzy to map your advance curve, and unfortunately before you know it you are in megasquirt cost and time territory. This gives you coil packs new wiring and 3D ignition and fuelling tweaking on the same map, and also more than one.

Steve and Mark have posted great info and advice on here with the 14cux which I have also followed closely, and the option you have over there to taking your car to Joolz to set up, a no brainer imo, but the question is, as a diyer, how far are you prepared to go time wise and financially before you think that maybe we might be better off scrapping the 14cux from the beginning and going with a more modern setup

[stevesprint]

blaze_away said:

Finally with a lot of brainwork testing Rovergauge Tunerpro and help from you brilliant folks I have finally fixed my overly rich running.

Frank
I’m glad you’ve finally sorted you Chimmy. Let me know how you get on with the maps as I’ve recently received a later Chimmy map and I’m considering merge the best bits from the early and later Chimmy maps with Land Rovers later code.

Classic Chim said:

Does the CUX support wide band?

No, but I’ve written a windows programs to capture & log my Innovate LC2 AFR wideband and then Merge the AFR & RoverGauge logs.

You don’t need a dash AFR gauge to run my Innovate LC2 AFR logger.


I run the AFR logger & RoverGauge logger simultaneously while driving safely, then once back home I merge the AFR & RoverGauge logs, then import into Excel and create a pivot table like this.




I then use the AFR table to correct the main fuel table which can be done with TunerPro and finally load the corrected map onto my Moates Ostrich or you could burn to a chip.

blaze_away said:

I could go to Joolz for a remap but if I then make some mods I would need to go again so should I fit a wideband lambda and do my own remapping.

I don’t actually recommend remapping the 14CUX yourself as you can see its not straight forward plus you can’t just randomly blast home from work, you need steady runs on a motorway at different speeds in different gears and also a few long acceleration runs though the whole RPM range.

Visiting Joolz would be a lot less hassle, quicker, safer and not much more expensive than buying a wide band sensor, but on the other hand if you’re like me you’ll find remapping an addictive fun challenge that's free the second time after your mods.

If you're interested give me a call one evening, you've got my number.

Edited by stevesprint on Tuesday 3rd April 22:00

[blaze_away]

Jazzdude.
The things that helped me diagnose.....

TPS corroded wire
It fell off then on inspection I could see bluish copper salts on the bare wires.

LAMBDA FAULT
In RG it would occasionally stop responding on short term trim. Seap position on the manifold and the fault followed the probe. Swapped it out and fault disappeared.

Dodgy earths
Used a multi meter to check earth from MAF to engine found resistance of 30 ish ohm.
Checked ground pins on the ecu and found similar results there too.
Started looking at the loom earths and found the braided wire broken off at the ring terminal so fixed that and made a piggyback cable direct to earth from the MAF and it dropped to zero resistance. FYI On the ECU pin 25 provides earth for MAF etc
Details here
http://www.britishv8.org/articles/rover-14cux-efi....

[blaze_away]

Stevesprint

Liking that post .....I will call you.

[jazzdude]

That's interesting re the faults, especially the throttle position wires.

I have updated my engine earths and also as I did a body lift a couple of years ago, I don't remember those earthing points by the gear stick looking particularly bad when I put them back on again.

I too suspect my AFM might not be completely up to scratch, but that is next on my list if the heavy drinking continues, especially after all the ignition parts updating I have done. Setting it up in green tune the last year was not straightforward though, as the little hex headed plug that turns the potentiometer 'sort of' connected with it making the adjustment to the voltage tricky. I admit though I was measuring off a couple of needles that I pushed into the wires, in the plug that goes into the AFM, something I was not that keen on tbh.

If your car is now running right and is not drinking fuel anymore, then taking it to Joolz would be the best for that final tweak, and unless you plan further intake mods or changing your cam to something hairier, perhaps leave it as it is.

Unless that is, you fancy a project and a bit of ongoing tinkering then making small adjustments to some of the cells on specific parts of the map might be very rewarding, although no doubt, also frustrating.

[blitzracing]

Ill be the first to admit its time consuming doing the mapping on the road- Im lucky I have some very good sweeping roads on my doorstep over open countryside that can replicate most engine loads in a few miles, but I was still messing around on and off for one whole summer until I was a happy man.