Caterham whats a good first time model?
Discussion
Hi there
I simply love Caterhams, mainly because you can slide them around so easily and you feel so connected.
I've been reading up on different versions but still have some questions.
1. I believe the best chassis/handling/fun is the S3/De-Dion is that correct?
2. S5 is the SV for bigger built people, but what is a CSR?
3. R cars have an LSD, does it make much difference?
4. R cars lightened flywheel, again make much difference?
5. Is there much difference between say a 310 and a 360 (310 been 1.6 sigma 150HP & 360 been 2.0 180HP)?
6. If I pick a car and says its missing sequential shift lights, carpet, can I add it in or buy from Caterham and fit myself?
My main use shall be:
1. Weekend fun car
2. Finding big car parks, few cones and well drifting around and just hooning about.
3. Trackdays at places like Curborough, Oulton Park and Donnington.
My main aims are that is does not feel gutless, but at the same time its not over powerful making it difficult to enjoy on the road, most of all I want a car that is very confident inspiring and easy to control and slide on the limit. Driven the CDX Drift Caterhams at Bookatrack events and they are huge fun but it is all first gear stuff, I think those are 135HP Sigma in Street configuration but am not 100% sure.
If they all handle as well as each other due to no major revisions then I'd be up for saving money by buying a car a few years old.
Otherwise I had considered getting a 310 but in a custom spec, so not an R or S pack but my own options as I would want most of the R kit, wheels, suspension, LSD, flywheel, shift indicator etc. But I do not want the bucket seats and as such I'd like leather seats from street model, carpet, windscreen. Not bothered about stuff like weather pack, heater etc. as will only be driven in dry unless caught out, in which case I get wet, I will survive.
My other cars are E46 M3 running CSL gear and around 1300kg with 370HP and an F-Type SVR. So I am used to having a good chunk of power but in the Caterham I want the best possible balance to power without feeling underpower but also don't want it to be an absolute handful. As such I considered 135HP as a minimum and 200HP as the upper limit and probably settle on something in the middle.
People seem to rave about the 310 with its Sigma 155HP engine, so is that engine in an S3 chassis the sweet spot? Is the 2.0l sometimes a bit too much on the road?
I see 1990-2000 cars for 10-20k with S3 and De-Dion mentioned, think they might be none Ford engines though and then of course newer S3 and de-dion with Ford engines but are also a lot more expensive. Do the older cars handle and drive just as a nice?
Lastly I want it to pull away and change gear as close to a normal road car as possible, don't like idea of silly racing clutches or gears hard to engage if that impacts choice at all or if the lighter flywheel cars are harder to manage?
So many questions and my apologies.
Like I say I recently did the CDX Bookatrack drift day. I've also driven Caterhams at Palmersport but found them a bit horrible, but guess they were a bit battered. I am back at Bookatrack on May 7th open day to road test drive 360R and 360R SV, I shall try and see if they can let me a have a 310R or 310S for comparison too. Then back at Bookatrack again May 20th for the advanced drifting course. So I am trying to get plenty of seat time to improve my car control though on the drift day I thoroughly enjoyed it and found them easy to control, of course in such large open spaces sometimes the loon inside you takes over and you just decided to spin them as its so much fun.
I simply love Caterhams, mainly because you can slide them around so easily and you feel so connected.
I've been reading up on different versions but still have some questions.
1. I believe the best chassis/handling/fun is the S3/De-Dion is that correct?
2. S5 is the SV for bigger built people, but what is a CSR?
3. R cars have an LSD, does it make much difference?
4. R cars lightened flywheel, again make much difference?
5. Is there much difference between say a 310 and a 360 (310 been 1.6 sigma 150HP & 360 been 2.0 180HP)?
6. If I pick a car and says its missing sequential shift lights, carpet, can I add it in or buy from Caterham and fit myself?
My main use shall be:
1. Weekend fun car
2. Finding big car parks, few cones and well drifting around and just hooning about.
3. Trackdays at places like Curborough, Oulton Park and Donnington.
My main aims are that is does not feel gutless, but at the same time its not over powerful making it difficult to enjoy on the road, most of all I want a car that is very confident inspiring and easy to control and slide on the limit. Driven the CDX Drift Caterhams at Bookatrack events and they are huge fun but it is all first gear stuff, I think those are 135HP Sigma in Street configuration but am not 100% sure.
If they all handle as well as each other due to no major revisions then I'd be up for saving money by buying a car a few years old.
Otherwise I had considered getting a 310 but in a custom spec, so not an R or S pack but my own options as I would want most of the R kit, wheels, suspension, LSD, flywheel, shift indicator etc. But I do not want the bucket seats and as such I'd like leather seats from street model, carpet, windscreen. Not bothered about stuff like weather pack, heater etc. as will only be driven in dry unless caught out, in which case I get wet, I will survive.
My other cars are E46 M3 running CSL gear and around 1300kg with 370HP and an F-Type SVR. So I am used to having a good chunk of power but in the Caterham I want the best possible balance to power without feeling underpower but also don't want it to be an absolute handful. As such I considered 135HP as a minimum and 200HP as the upper limit and probably settle on something in the middle.
People seem to rave about the 310 with its Sigma 155HP engine, so is that engine in an S3 chassis the sweet spot? Is the 2.0l sometimes a bit too much on the road?
I see 1990-2000 cars for 10-20k with S3 and De-Dion mentioned, think they might be none Ford engines though and then of course newer S3 and de-dion with Ford engines but are also a lot more expensive. Do the older cars handle and drive just as a nice?
Lastly I want it to pull away and change gear as close to a normal road car as possible, don't like idea of silly racing clutches or gears hard to engage if that impacts choice at all or if the lighter flywheel cars are harder to manage?
So many questions and my apologies.
Like I say I recently did the CDX Bookatrack drift day. I've also driven Caterhams at Palmersport but found them a bit horrible, but guess they were a bit battered. I am back at Bookatrack on May 7th open day to road test drive 360R and 360R SV, I shall try and see if they can let me a have a 310R or 310S for comparison too. Then back at Bookatrack again May 20th for the advanced drifting course. So I am trying to get plenty of seat time to improve my car control though on the drift day I thoroughly enjoyed it and found them easy to control, of course in such large open spaces sometimes the loon inside you takes over and you just decided to spin them as its so much fun.
I don't think you can go far wrong..
A CSR is a special and realtively rare caterham with a cosworth engine and independent rear suspension. Pretty much everything else is de-dion, unless its old enough to be a live axle.
SV (series 5?) is a wider body. More room, but a bit lardier. Be aware if you have big feet you might have issues with pedal room in an S3.
IMHO more than any car I've ever driven it needs an LSD. Largely because so light and de-dion. I didn't believe that, bought one without and fitted one within about a month.
Pretty much anything you can add to the car easily. Get the big bits right - gearbox etc.
ETA: Some might say that the non-ford engines are better
Mine's an 06 k series - pre-ford the rover K is the main engine, then if you go back far enough, vauxhalls and other fords.
Downside to some of the larger engines is apparently weight - I have no personal experience.
S3 chassis comes in imperial and metric flavours. Essentially the same, although the metric is apparently stiffer. All cars will do the same thing, IME the setup / suspension settings will make more difference to the car than the differences between cars.
A CSR is a special and realtively rare caterham with a cosworth engine and independent rear suspension. Pretty much everything else is de-dion, unless its old enough to be a live axle.
SV (series 5?) is a wider body. More room, but a bit lardier. Be aware if you have big feet you might have issues with pedal room in an S3.
IMHO more than any car I've ever driven it needs an LSD. Largely because so light and de-dion. I didn't believe that, bought one without and fitted one within about a month.
Pretty much anything you can add to the car easily. Get the big bits right - gearbox etc.
ETA: Some might say that the non-ford engines are better
Mine's an 06 k series - pre-ford the rover K is the main engine, then if you go back far enough, vauxhalls and other fords.Downside to some of the larger engines is apparently weight - I have no personal experience.
S3 chassis comes in imperial and metric flavours. Essentially the same, although the metric is apparently stiffer. All cars will do the same thing, IME the setup / suspension settings will make more difference to the car than the differences between cars.
Edited by upsidedownmark on Wednesday 11th April 14:49
upsidedownmark said:
I don't think you can go far wrong..
A CSR is a special and realtively rare caterham with a cosworth engine and independent rear suspension. Pretty much everything else is de-dion, unless its old enough to be a live axle.
SV (series 5?) is a wider body. More room, but a bit lardier. Be aware if you have big feet you might have issues with pedal room in an S3.
IMHO more than any car I've ever driven it needs an LSD. Largely because so light and de-dion. I didn't believe that, bought one without and fitted one within about a month.
Pretty much anything you can add to the car easily. Get the big bits right - gearbox etc.
ETA: Some might say that the non-ford engines are better Mine's an 06 k series - pre-ford the rover K is the main engine, then if you go back far enough, vauxhalls and other fords.
Downside to some of the larger engines is apparently weight - I have no personal experience.
S3 chassis comes in imperial and metric flavours. Essentially the same, although the metric is apparently stiffer. All cars will do the same thing, IME the setup / suspension settings will make more difference to the car than the differences between cars.
Thank you, good to know on LSD, will make sure its got that.A CSR is a special and realtively rare caterham with a cosworth engine and independent rear suspension. Pretty much everything else is de-dion, unless its old enough to be a live axle.
SV (series 5?) is a wider body. More room, but a bit lardier. Be aware if you have big feet you might have issues with pedal room in an S3.
IMHO more than any car I've ever driven it needs an LSD. Largely because so light and de-dion. I didn't believe that, bought one without and fitted one within about a month.
Pretty much anything you can add to the car easily. Get the big bits right - gearbox etc.
ETA: Some might say that the non-ford engines are better
Mine's an 06 k series - pre-ford the rover K is the main engine, then if you go back far enough, vauxhalls and other fords.Downside to some of the larger engines is apparently weight - I have no personal experience.
S3 chassis comes in imperial and metric flavours. Essentially the same, although the metric is apparently stiffer. All cars will do the same thing, IME the setup / suspension settings will make more difference to the car than the differences between cars.
Edited by upsidedownmark on Wednesday 11th April 14:49
I see the options are 5-speed or 6-speed, both boxes OK as I see Caterham list 6-speed as a £2500 option, is it really £2500 better than the 5-speed?
Also bigger brake master cylinder on R models, does it make a difference?
I have size 9.5 & 10 slim fit shoes, on the drift day in the series 3 I was OK with the pedals, I think with normal footwear be an issue but I'd always put correct footwear on for driving Caterham.
I assume the rear anti-roll bar option is merely there to dial out understeer?
Also is this like a fake Caterham or something:
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...
9k seems so cheap, which says to me too good to be true and the interior and exterior looks a bit odd.....
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...
9k seems so cheap, which says to me too good to be true and the interior and exterior looks a bit odd.....
Gibbo205 said:
I see the options are 5-speed or 6-speed, both boxes OK as I see Caterham list 6-speed as a £2500 option, is it really £2500 better than the 5-speed?
Also bigger brake master cylinder on R models, does it make a difference?
I have size 9.5 & 10 slim fit shoes, on the drift day in the series 3 I was OK with the pedals, I think with normal footwear be an issue but I'd always put correct footwear on for driving Caterham.
I assume the rear anti-roll bar option is merely there to dial out understeer?
The gearbox is down to personal preference really. The 6 speed is good fun but it has very close ratios and is therefore very revvy. The 5 speed is a bit more comfortable on long motorway runs because of the longer 5th gear. In short.. if you like changing gear get the 6 speed, or if you prefer longer cruises and may be annoyed by the constant high revs then get the 5 speed.Also bigger brake master cylinder on R models, does it make a difference?
I have size 9.5 & 10 slim fit shoes, on the drift day in the series 3 I was OK with the pedals, I think with normal footwear be an issue but I'd always put correct footwear on for driving Caterham.
I assume the rear anti-roll bar option is merely there to dial out understeer?
Uprated master cylinder gives a slightly firmer pedal with slightly reduced travel, although the difference is quite subtle. If you have the 4 pot front brakes then its worth it (maybe even necessary). Very easy upgrade to retro fit yourself on any car.
The rear anti-roll bar is worth getting because it is adjustable so you can tweak the handling balance yourself.
Sounds like you're into drifting..? As you've seen the Sigma can do it through a combination of tyres, setup and revving the nuts off it! I wonder though if the Duratec 360 might be a better fit. Although the power-to-weight may not be that different the extra torque in the mid-range might help unstick the rear tyres easier.
Gibbo205 said:
Also is this like a fake Caterham or something:
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...
9k seems so cheap, which says to me too good to be true and the interior and exterior looks a bit odd.....
Yes thats not a Caterham. In the description it says its a Mac1 Type ZR. Be careful, in the kit car market 9k can be both a huge bargain and a huge rip-off depending on what you're looking at. Not to detract from that car though, it may very well be worth 9khttps://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...
9k seems so cheap, which says to me too good to be true and the interior and exterior looks a bit odd.....
Edited by mharris on Wednesday 11th April 15:45
mharris said:
Yes thats not a Caterham. Be careful, in the kit car market 9k can be both a huge bargain and a huge rip-off depending on what you're looking at.
Really why I want a Caterham, they have proven handling, proven residuals, they cost more to get into but at the same time they seem to be depreciation proof more or less.Edited by mharris on Wednesday 11th April 15:39
As I say only drive the CDX drift Caterham which is Sigma with 140HP and it was all first gear so breaking traction in the dry was easy, suspect they fit them with cheap rear tyres though and unsure if it had an LSD or not. See what your saying about torque though as maybe in 2nd gear might be harder to unstick it though when wanting fun.
I do enjoy drifting but my skillset so far is really just 1st gear messing around, all I can manage at higher speeds is say 2nd gear power oversteer. I of course am still learning and wanting to improve.
May 7th I am in the 360R which are 2.0l see how they feel, then maybe jump in a 310 after to see if I find the lack of power/torque annoying or easier to live with.
IME if you’re using all or mainly on the road the 5 speed is fine, 6 not bad except on long cruises.
For track work, the 6 is a lot better, no gaps, a gear for most corners.
Remember the S5 has wide track front suspension as standard and is only about 25kg heavier. Much more room than the S3 and only looks big if right next to a S3!
Wide track and big front brakes are essential for track stuff. The updated brake cylinder as earlier described. I find ours a bit heavy and dead. My son, who has considerable single seater experience thinks it’s great.
180bhp is enough for track stuff. 210 is better. 220 better still. More than that you need to know what you’re doing to get much benefit.
Windscreen on the road, aeroscreen on track.
Don’t be misled by your drift sessions. No need to put cheap tyres on to get a 7 sliding, they can be set up to behave any way you like.
All IMO.
For track work, the 6 is a lot better, no gaps, a gear for most corners.
Remember the S5 has wide track front suspension as standard and is only about 25kg heavier. Much more room than the S3 and only looks big if right next to a S3!
Wide track and big front brakes are essential for track stuff. The updated brake cylinder as earlier described. I find ours a bit heavy and dead. My son, who has considerable single seater experience thinks it’s great.
180bhp is enough for track stuff. 210 is better. 220 better still. More than that you need to know what you’re doing to get much benefit.
Windscreen on the road, aeroscreen on track.
Don’t be misled by your drift sessions. No need to put cheap tyres on to get a 7 sliding, they can be set up to behave any way you like.
All IMO.
Gibbo205 said:
As I say only drive the CDX drift Caterham which is Sigma with 140HP and it was all first gear so breaking traction in the dry was easy, suspect they fit them with cheap rear tyres though and unsure if it had an LSD or not. See what your saying about torque though as maybe in 2nd gear might be harder to unstick it though when wanting fun.
Yes they do have a LSD, along with a fully stiff rear ARB, removed front ARB and lots of chassis rake. I guess they pump the rear types up a bit as well.573 said:
I can't see you ever regretting buying one with more power. I've never understood people who claim a lower powered one makes a better road car, they maybe don't understand that the throttle pedal isn't binary and has settings inbetween off and fully on.
I think having, say, 150bhp enables you to use a few revs without going too fast. I enjoy driving my R400 but with 220bhp you can be breaking the limit before you’re out of 2nd. Having said that, with a 6 speed box and hardly going above 4K it’s fun.
REALIST123 said:
Wide track and big front brakes are essential for track stuff. The updated brake cylinder as earlier described. I find ours a bit heavy and dead. My son, who has considerable single seater experience thinks it’s great.
All IMO.
Also IMO.. desireable maybe, but I'd disagree with 'essential'. They race without them. Mine is narrow and standard brakes, and I've not managed to cook the brakes, even on track (in fact they're pretty epic), and while I'm sure that technically both may aid laptime, it would take a driver far more talented than most to find that difference. I'm tempted to widetrack mine, but mostly because it looks better All IMO.
573 said:
I can't see you ever regretting buying one with more power. I've never understood people who claim a lower powered one makes a better road car, they maybe don't understand that the throttle pedal isn't binary and has settings inbetween off and fully on.
Bit depends on how it delivers the power, and the weight / handling penalty of a bigger engine I'd guess. I can't deny I'd like a few more ponies from my base spec k series (taking it to silverstone was the killer, too many straights!) but equally I have a mate with a 620S, and I definitely don't want that.The difference in character of the cars is incredible - his is as subtle as being punched in the face - once you get over the massive shove in the back, it's all about getting it straight enough to deploy the punch. It 'feels' nose heavy compared to mine, and more like a 'big car', less caterham. In comparison mine may tickle in a straight line, but it's nice to play with the lateral limits, and encourages carrying speed, trying to accelarate earlier, changing gears, etc. It still gets to national limits and over very quickly / easily.. but when you can get to ban territory with a twitch of the foot in 4th, it kinda takes the fun away IMHO. Maybe the 620 isn't a good comparison being supercharged.
Equally, the chap with the 620 still wants more power on track as he gets left for dead by all the tintops on any decent straight.. go figure I guess
Lots of good advice on spec, anyway just a quick one to say a good friend and I are booked onto the BaT/CDX Advanced Drift on 20th May so I think we will be on the same session unless they run more than group at once.
Look forward to meeting you if that’s the case, it should be great fun!
Look forward to meeting you if that’s the case, it should be great fun!
I am in a similar position to the OP, I want a car that is fun going sideways slowly rather than a car that is b
d fast.
A bit of history, had a Westfield XI (not the Caterham shape) and it was superb on track. The front went where you pointed it and the rear was steered with the throttle, push a bit harder and you got four wheel drift that was easy to control. The car only had 100bhp from it's 1275 A series engine and skinny little hard tyres but it was a total blast to drive every time.
I sold that car to a chap in Finland and bought an Ultima GTR, it is so quick that it makes you dizzy but I can't enjoy it as much as the limits are so far away and I don't want to take it on a track as the tyres are about £1k per set compared to £30 each for the XI.
I am half heartedly trying to sell the Ultima as I want to recapture the slowly sideways experience. My BIL keeps suggesting that I sell my Ultima and the every day car and buy something "special" but he doesn't see the joy in a slow car, he has always been one for more power the better, hence his current toy a TTRS with something like 700bhp.
The Caterham is so something that I would like to try, however, getting the back end out on a test drive is somewhat frowned upon so my next step is try the drift day and see if it is a good as the XI was then make a decision from there. One thing that I don't know is how much the live axle made a difference.
d fast.A bit of history, had a Westfield XI (not the Caterham shape) and it was superb on track. The front went where you pointed it and the rear was steered with the throttle, push a bit harder and you got four wheel drift that was easy to control. The car only had 100bhp from it's 1275 A series engine and skinny little hard tyres but it was a total blast to drive every time.
I sold that car to a chap in Finland and bought an Ultima GTR, it is so quick that it makes you dizzy but I can't enjoy it as much as the limits are so far away and I don't want to take it on a track as the tyres are about £1k per set compared to £30 each for the XI.
I am half heartedly trying to sell the Ultima as I want to recapture the slowly sideways experience. My BIL keeps suggesting that I sell my Ultima and the every day car and buy something "special" but he doesn't see the joy in a slow car, he has always been one for more power the better, hence his current toy a TTRS with something like 700bhp.
The Caterham is so something that I would like to try, however, getting the back end out on a test drive is somewhat frowned upon so my next step is try the drift day and see if it is a good as the XI was then make a decision from there. One thing that I don't know is how much the live axle made a difference.
REALIST123 said:
Wide track and big front brakes are essential for track stuff. The updated brake cylinder as earlier described. I find ours a bit heavy and dead. My son, who has considerable single seater experience thinks it’s great.
All IMO.
How do you know if its got wide track, or is it SV models that are wide track?All IMO.
Or can I get the lighter narrow body with a wide track?
Edited by Gibbo205 on Thursday 12th April 10:32
spyderfly said:
Lots of good advice on spec, anyway just a quick one to say a good friend and I are booked onto the BaT/CDX Advanced Drift on 20th May so I think we will be on the same session unless they run more than group at once.
Look forward to meeting you if that’s the case, it should be great fun!
Shall see you there, myself and Barry are going, so shall be 4 of us, I also enquired if 4 meant less seat time and the response I got was it shall just go on 30 minutes or so longer as they normally do groups of three.Look forward to meeting you if that’s the case, it should be great fun!
What are your plans for the day as the instructors told me you can request what to learn such as further improve drift skills for larking about, donuts, big donuts on a larger radius or 2nd gear drifts through a corner.
Or you can do circuit (not on circuit) practice to go faster, so namely perfect braking, get apex and then power oversteer but the kind that is not a drift, basically maximising corner speed.
For the 20th I want to further improve my drift and larking about ability, I feel learning to further control the car when its out of control is more beneficial.
I reckon I shall go back in July for another advanced drift but more aimed at circuit to simply go faster with the car right on the limits but not beyond with maybe a touch of power oversteer.
See you there!
Master Bean said:
What is your budget? A 360R/R300 sounds like the right choice for you. Mine only has 140hp but I can use all of it on the road. Horses for courses and all that.
Budget can be quite flexible, my plan is not to purchase until this Summer or next Summer. I could spend 15k or 30k but if 15k will do the trick, then why spend 30k, plus maybe I should progress, so maybe try something like a 125-150HP K series / sigma based model and then maybe move up to a 2.0l Duratec 180-220HP model.
Also say I got a 1.6 Sigma with 125HP, how much does it cost to bring power up to say 140-150HP, or do Caterham even offer a power upgrade service to the 152HP specification?
Right now my priorities are:
- 3 series chassis (don't think I need SV, but will make sure of this)
- LSD, Sports suspension, 13" or 15" 6 x 8 wheels
- Leather seats, carpet
- 125 - 180HP or if buying 125HP easily upgrade able to around 150ish
- Windscreen (don't need the doors or roof). Just want a screen so not everything is hitting me in the head and for trackdays I shall just unbolt it and put a helmet on.
So based on a new Caterham I kind of want a mix of the S and R pack, as I do want the LSD, Momo wheel etc. but don't want the plastic seats, would rather the leather seats with harnesses and some carpet, though carpet not an issue I can get carpet installed by local van company who specialise in custom van interiors.
I just want the best handling and most predictable handling with sensible power, enough to break traction, but not so much that it becomes more difficult to drive. I know the throttle is not an on off switch, but I am sure you can all relate to me when I say when you jump in a slow underpowered car you drive the wheels of it and really maximise your corner speeds, then when drive an overpowered car your well more careful as its far easier to get yourself in trouble or mess it up.
Plus its my first Caterham, I'd say my skill behind the wheel is average, I have much to learn so a 250HP plus Caterham though insane would probably be unwise, but at the same time 80-100HP would be simply annoying to me. I suspect 160HP would be sweet spot.
MKnight702 said:
I am in a similar position to the OP, I want a car that is fun going sideways slowly rather than a car that is bd fast.
A bit of history, had a Westfield XI (not the Caterham shape) and it was superb on track. The front went where you pointed it and the rear was steered with the throttle, push a bit harder and you got four wheel drift that was easy to control. The car only had 100bhp from it's 1275 A series engine and skinny little hard tyres but it was a total blast to drive every time.
I sold that car to a chap in Finland and bought an Ultima GTR, it is so quick that it makes you dizzy but I can't enjoy it as much as the limits are so far away and I don't want to take it on a track as the tyres are about £1k per set compared to £30 each for the XI.
I am half heartedly trying to sell the Ultima as I want to recapture the slowly sideways experience. My BIL keeps suggesting that I sell my Ultima and the every day car and buy something "special" but he doesn't see the joy in a slow car, he has always been one for more power the better, hence his current toy a TTRS with something like 700bhp.
The Caterham is so something that I would like to try, however, getting the back end out on a test drive is somewhat frowned upon so my next step is try the drift day and see if it is a good as the XI was then make a decision from there. One thing that I don't know is how much the live axle made a difference.
What I like about Westfields is there seem to be a few with sequentials and not huge money, but at the same time I suspect a sequential might be an absolute pain in the ass to use on the road, particular for pulling away.d fast.A bit of history, had a Westfield XI (not the Caterham shape) and it was superb on track. The front went where you pointed it and the rear was steered with the throttle, push a bit harder and you got four wheel drift that was easy to control. The car only had 100bhp from it's 1275 A series engine and skinny little hard tyres but it was a total blast to drive every time.
I sold that car to a chap in Finland and bought an Ultima GTR, it is so quick that it makes you dizzy but I can't enjoy it as much as the limits are so far away and I don't want to take it on a track as the tyres are about £1k per set compared to £30 each for the XI.
I am half heartedly trying to sell the Ultima as I want to recapture the slowly sideways experience. My BIL keeps suggesting that I sell my Ultima and the every day car and buy something "special" but he doesn't see the joy in a slow car, he has always been one for more power the better, hence his current toy a TTRS with something like 700bhp.
The Caterham is so something that I would like to try, however, getting the back end out on a test drive is somewhat frowned upon so my next step is try the drift day and see if it is a good as the XI was then make a decision from there. One thing that I don't know is how much the live axle made a difference.
Also the Westfield seems a bigger unknown as to what your getting and they really seem to vary hugely, but at the same time seem a relative bargain by comparison, lots of sub 10k stuff, still they are so unknown if it goes wrong its probably a mindfield trying to put it right.
Caterham advantage is set specifications so if it brakes, Caterham can fix and several specialist.
upsidedownmark said:
Bit depends on how it delivers the power, and the weight / handling penalty of a bigger engine I'd guess. I can't deny I'd like a few more ponies from my base spec k series (taking it to silverstone was the killer, too many straights!) but equally I have a mate with a 620S, and I definitely don't want that.
The difference in character of the cars is incredible - his is as subtle as being punched in the face - once you get over the massive shove in the back, it's all about getting it straight enough to deploy the punch. It 'feels' nose heavy compared to mine, and more like a 'big car', less caterham. In comparison mine may tickle in a straight line, but it's nice to play with the lateral limits, and encourages carrying speed, trying to accelarate earlier, changing gears, etc. It still gets to national limits and over very quickly / easily.. but when you can get to ban territory with a twitch of the foot in 4th, it kinda takes the fun away IMHO. Maybe the 620 isn't a good comparison being supercharged.
Equally, the chap with the 620 still wants more power on track as he gets left for dead by all the tintops on any decent straight.. go figure I guess
Yeah that's all very true. Character and delivery are really important things to consider, it's why I personally wanted a k series car. The difference in character of the cars is incredible - his is as subtle as being punched in the face - once you get over the massive shove in the back, it's all about getting it straight enough to deploy the punch. It 'feels' nose heavy compared to mine, and more like a 'big car', less caterham. In comparison mine may tickle in a straight line, but it's nice to play with the lateral limits, and encourages carrying speed, trying to accelarate earlier, changing gears, etc. It still gets to national limits and over very quickly / easily.. but when you can get to ban territory with a twitch of the foot in 4th, it kinda takes the fun away IMHO. Maybe the 620 isn't a good comparison being supercharged.
Equally, the chap with the 620 still wants more power on track as he gets left for dead by all the tintops on any decent straight.. go figure I guess
However I read all the 'don't get one with too much power / lower powered ones are better on the road as you can use it all' etc stuff that gets repeated ad nauseam when I was first looking so I went off and tried an R300. I was completely underwhelmed and thought it had to be broken, so I tried an R400 - same thing. I ended up in an R500 with a sequential box. I drove that and left the place so disappointed at how all of them just didn't go anywhere near as fast as I'd hoped. I've since driven a 620r and I think its problem is torque and the way it's delivered rather than its outright power that makes it an unsatisfactory proposition. Its no secret that I'm not a fan of FI though, I prefer an angry NA engine that makes you work for the performance.
So basically OP just go and drive some and make your own mind up. Your opinion is likely to be vastly different to anyone else's.
Gibbo205 said:
What I like about Westfields is there seem to be a few with sequentials and not huge money, but at the same time I suspect a sequential might be an absolute pain in the ass to use on the road, particular for pulling away.
Also the Westfield seems a bigger unknown as to what your getting and they really seem to vary hugely, but at the same time seem a relative bargain by comparison, lots of sub 10k stuff, still they are so unknown if it goes wrong its probably a mindfield trying to put it right.
Caterham advantage is set specifications so if it brakes, Caterham can fix and several specialist.
The XI is not the normal Westfield, it's a completely different beast, Low power from the 1275 motor, skinny little 13" wheels (mine had wires), hard compound Avon tyres that looked untouched after a day on the circuit where others with the track day slicks had gone through the tread, then the canvas then the steel and were on the last mm of rubber before the tyre explodes. Much slower round the track than most, however, very controllable slides and 4 wheel drift were the way forwards. As for brakes, they may as well have been non existent, but then you weren't supposed to use then as maintaining momentum was king. When EVO had one for TDCOTY it placed above many more well known track cars despite being slowest by some margin, the car did, however, do the most laps which says something about how much fun it was.Also the Westfield seems a bigger unknown as to what your getting and they really seem to vary hugely, but at the same time seem a relative bargain by comparison, lots of sub 10k stuff, still they are so unknown if it goes wrong its probably a mindfield trying to put it right.
Caterham advantage is set specifications so if it brakes, Caterham can fix and several specialist.
My worry about modern track toys is the concentration upon grip as the pinnacle of handling whereas the fun is in the gap between the car losing grip and spinning like a top. Modern sticky tyres make the car stick like glue right up until the point it doesn't, the fun gap is so small it's impossible to find it under normal conditons, on a track maybe, on a road never.
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