Automotive Design - When was the "sweet spot"
Discussion
Wasn't sure whether to park this here or in GG but here goes.
I'm 65 next week, bought my first car at the age of 19 - a 1966 MG Midget.
Over the last 46 years I've owned a lot of different and interesting cars, lusted after many more!
So when was the sweet spot or best era I wonder:
1950s most cars were pre war based, slow, sometimes unreliable, didn't do great distances but easy repaired often with a hammer by a blacksmith! You bought a part and fitted it with basic set of tools. Style wise very much separate chassis, separate wings etc
1960s cars became mass produced, built down to a price, some still based upon 1950s technology, sometimes more reliable but rusted away after 3 or 4 years due to cheap steel and poor design. Speeds, performance, road holding improved though. "Two and three box design" with monocoque bodies and one or two adventurous shapes. Repairs still straight forward, an increase in Motor Factors and Accessory shops for parts.
1970s and still rusting away merrily but reliability and performance continuing to improve. The standard 3 box design becoming more prevalent. Cars still built down to a price. Repairs still possible "at the side of the road."
1980s and as technology continues to improve, cars get basic electronic set ups, more reliability until the electronics fail, styling becomes more "modern". Cars get more gadgets, electric windows, electric seats etc and more weight to carry around so need the extra performance
1990s and cars get bigger, many look almost identical because they are designed in a wind tunnel. Technology improves again, more gadgets,,sometimes better electrics and better rust proofing. Basic car performance now far better than the average sports car of the 60's and 70's
And into the 2000s and beyond. Cars looking more and more the same, 2 box hatchback style for the most part, either small "town cars" or "performance Estates". Becoming more "white goods" everyone feels a right to own at least one, knows nothing about them and their workings; just put it into a garage as they have the diagnostics. You no longer buy a wheel bearing, you buy a whole hub at ten times the price.
So what is your sweet spot, era and model. Not a definitive list below, not all my favourites, just examples and some models over run the turn of the decade.
1950s The simple styling of the sit up and beg "Pop" E93A. TR2 & 3, Lotus 6,
1960s The Mark 1 Sprite, Anglia, mIni, Cortina Mk 1 & 2 etc TR4, MGB, TVR Vixen and Grantura,Elan etc
1970s Three box Mk 3& 4 Cortina, VX4/90 XJ6 etc Stag, BMW 2002
1980s Cavalier, XR2 XR3 etc, BMW E30, TVR Wedge
1990s Peugeot 205 Audi Quattro, Impreza etc BMW E36 Z3, New Elan, TVR Chimaera
2000s Celica, Jazz, 208, MX5, Aygo, BMW E46 and E92 Z4, TVR Tuscan
I'm 65 next week, bought my first car at the age of 19 - a 1966 MG Midget.
Over the last 46 years I've owned a lot of different and interesting cars, lusted after many more!
So when was the sweet spot or best era I wonder:
1950s most cars were pre war based, slow, sometimes unreliable, didn't do great distances but easy repaired often with a hammer by a blacksmith! You bought a part and fitted it with basic set of tools. Style wise very much separate chassis, separate wings etc
1960s cars became mass produced, built down to a price, some still based upon 1950s technology, sometimes more reliable but rusted away after 3 or 4 years due to cheap steel and poor design. Speeds, performance, road holding improved though. "Two and three box design" with monocoque bodies and one or two adventurous shapes. Repairs still straight forward, an increase in Motor Factors and Accessory shops for parts.
1970s and still rusting away merrily but reliability and performance continuing to improve. The standard 3 box design becoming more prevalent. Cars still built down to a price. Repairs still possible "at the side of the road."
1980s and as technology continues to improve, cars get basic electronic set ups, more reliability until the electronics fail, styling becomes more "modern". Cars get more gadgets, electric windows, electric seats etc and more weight to carry around so need the extra performance
1990s and cars get bigger, many look almost identical because they are designed in a wind tunnel. Technology improves again, more gadgets,,sometimes better electrics and better rust proofing. Basic car performance now far better than the average sports car of the 60's and 70's
And into the 2000s and beyond. Cars looking more and more the same, 2 box hatchback style for the most part, either small "town cars" or "performance Estates". Becoming more "white goods" everyone feels a right to own at least one, knows nothing about them and their workings; just put it into a garage as they have the diagnostics. You no longer buy a wheel bearing, you buy a whole hub at ten times the price.
So what is your sweet spot, era and model. Not a definitive list below, not all my favourites, just examples and some models over run the turn of the decade.
1950s The simple styling of the sit up and beg "Pop" E93A. TR2 & 3, Lotus 6,
1960s The Mark 1 Sprite, Anglia, mIni, Cortina Mk 1 & 2 etc TR4, MGB, TVR Vixen and Grantura,Elan etc
1970s Three box Mk 3& 4 Cortina, VX4/90 XJ6 etc Stag, BMW 2002
1980s Cavalier, XR2 XR3 etc, BMW E30, TVR Wedge
1990s Peugeot 205 Audi Quattro, Impreza etc BMW E36 Z3, New Elan, TVR Chimaera
2000s Celica, Jazz, 208, MX5, Aygo, BMW E46 and E92 Z4, TVR Tuscan
I'm a slight bit younger and so pre-80's is only by impression rather than driving/owning experience. By decade, mine are:
50's - DS
60's - E-Type / Elan
70's - Ro80 / Interceptor / Capri / 3.0CSL / Daytona / Merc Beirut taxi / 911 / Triumph 2500
80's - XR4i / 205 GTi / Golf GTi / Quattro
90's - Corrado / Griffith / RX-7 / Focus
I guess that means for me the 70's was probably the most varied by design and the 80's / 90's were more focussed on specific qualities. After that performance (in all respects) overtook character.
50's - DS
60's - E-Type / Elan
70's - Ro80 / Interceptor / Capri / 3.0CSL / Daytona / Merc Beirut taxi / 911 / Triumph 2500
80's - XR4i / 205 GTi / Golf GTi / Quattro
90's - Corrado / Griffith / RX-7 / Focus
I guess that means for me the 70's was probably the most varied by design and the 80's / 90's were more focussed on specific qualities. After that performance (in all respects) overtook character.
You put Audi Quattro in the 1990s - it was launched in 1980. I mention this not from pedantry, but because I was considering your very question the other day, when I saw a Daytona on the M4, and I was in my Quattro. Seeing the Ferrari, while driving the Quat, got me thinking about progress in cars. Because after having to use the Quattro for a fortnight while 2017-spec A4 was being fixed made me seriously question where the progress has been. In every measurable way the A4 is obviously better - faster, better MPG, aircon, ICE etc etc But after a few long journeys the Quattro had blown away the cobwebs and was/is just as confortable, just as stable, more nimble, lighter, easier to see out of, sounds sublime and is full of character. So for me the engineering sweet spot is the mid-80s.
Edited by Yertis on Saturday 21st April 23:29
Yertis said:
You put Audi Quattro in the 1990s - it was launched in 1980. I mention this not from pedantry, but because I was considering your very question the other day, when I saw a Daytona on the M4, and I was in my Quattro. Seeing the Ferrari, while driving the Quat, got me thinking about progress in cars. Because after having to use the Quattro for a fortnight while 2017-spec A4 made me seriously question where the progress has been. In every measurable way the A4 is obviously better - faster, better MPG, aircon, ICE etc etc But after a few long journeys the Quattro had blown away the cobwebs and was/is just as confortable, just as stable, more nimble, lighter, easier to see out of, sounds sublime and is full of character. So for me the engineering sweet spot is the mid-80s.
When I typed it I thought 1980 then thought no couldn't be that long ago.That's a very good example. The most recent stuff is bloated, extra sound deadening, extra (unnecessary) gadgets, extra sensors for everything. Just makes the car heavier and less nimble.
I have little interest in the average modern car, unaffordable Astons etc excepted although occasionally when I think it would be nice just jump in and go with the radio playing but I can do that in my easily fixable Volvo 940 (1997). The Caterham is a Ford Crossflow (1990) and even the TVR Chimaera (shortly to be sold I think due to my age, need for a (nice) family car and moving home) is fixable at home even if certain areas of the engine bay need very small multi jointed hands).
TVR Moneypit said:
Good idea for a topic Skyedriver 
For me, it isn't just a question of when, but also where. And I'd say that the 'when' was the 1950's and the 'where' was Detroit. Just look at the huge range of manufacturers churning out cars in 1950's America, then look at the huge variation in automotive designs. This was a time and a place when anything was possible, when the future, the near future, was beyond your most wildest dreams, and the country was awash with money and prosperity and optimism. Add all of that together and you end up with a country designing truly beautiful things, even for carrying out the most mundane of tasks, (radios, fridges, etc).
Interesting, never thought of the US, but 55 - 57 Chevy, Impala (was that 50's or 60's), the C1 Corvette. Space age design, way ahead of recently war torn Europe. Moving into the 60's the C2 Corvette, the Mustang....For me, it isn't just a question of when, but also where. And I'd say that the 'when' was the 1950's and the 'where' was Detroit. Just look at the huge range of manufacturers churning out cars in 1950's America, then look at the huge variation in automotive designs. This was a time and a place when anything was possible, when the future, the near future, was beyond your most wildest dreams, and the country was awash with money and prosperity and optimism. Add all of that together and you end up with a country designing truly beautiful things, even for carrying out the most mundane of tasks, (radios, fridges, etc).
Speed 3 said:
I'm a slight bit younger and so pre-80's is only by impression rather than driving/owning experience. By decade, mine are:
50's - DS
60's - E-Type / Elan
70's - Ro80 / Interceptor / Capri / 3.0CSL / Daytona / Merc Beirut taxi / 911 / Triumph 2500
80's - XR4i / 205 GTi / Golf GTi / Quattro
90's - Corrado / Griffith / RX-7 / Focus
I guess that means for me the 70's was probably the most varied by design and the 80's / 90's were more focussed on specific qualities. After that performance (in all respects) overtook character.
Good spread there, hard to believe the DS was 1950's (especially after my last post about the US way ahead of war torn Europe!50's - DS
60's - E-Type / Elan
70's - Ro80 / Interceptor / Capri / 3.0CSL / Daytona / Merc Beirut taxi / 911 / Triumph 2500
80's - XR4i / 205 GTi / Golf GTi / Quattro
90's - Corrado / Griffith / RX-7 / Focus
I guess that means for me the 70's was probably the most varied by design and the 80's / 90's were more focussed on specific qualities. After that performance (in all respects) overtook character.
The excitement of seeing an Interceptor, Capri 3000GXL, Daytona, 3.0CSL, And of course the Adams designed Marcos .....
You can see exotic styling slowly being watered down in the 80's and 90's. Not necessarily comfort or performance but the design as a statement.
TVR Moneypit said:
So, "when was the sweet spot for automotive design"? For me, it isn't just a question of when, but also where. And I'd say that the 'when' was the 1950's and the 'where' was Detroit. Just look at the huge range of manufacturers churning out cars in 1950's America, then look at the huge variation in automotive designs. This was a time and a place when anything was possible, when the future, the near future, was beyond your most wildest dreams, and the country was awash with money and prosperity and optimism. Add all of that together and you end up with a country designing truly beautiful things, even for carrying out the most mundane of tasks, (radios, fridges, etc).
The most prolific period of manufacture and design in the 'States was mid 50's through to late 60's. So many manufacturers were offering one year only designs that would eventually become iconic. Even more amazing that the manufacturing volumes were so high that even now 60 years later there are still restorable cars available and better parts availability in some cases than when new. Think of '55, '56, '57 Chevy, Chrysler 300 series, early TBirds, Corvettes, Mustang, so, so much to choose from and to a degree all were blue collar cars. OK, in Europe we had some really significant designs like late 50's/early 60's Zephyrs and Cresta's, early Cortina's - we had MG's, TR's which a few could afford - even fewer could afford Jaguars and their. Larger cars like larger items of art are much easier for the designer to get a sense of proportion and balance. Few manufacturers other than the Italians have been able to achieve that. As an example put a unibody 1962 Ford Thunderbird against what was then a state of the art European car - Ford Cortina. Height of TBird 52.5" - height of Cortina 55". Size for size most larger American cars were of a similar height/size relationship - how could any European car not seem 'dumpy' and unbalanced from a design perspective?For me, the 'best' car design was clustered around the millennium. (nearly 20 years ago,where did that go?).
Electronics have made the cars faster,more powerful, safer (ABS, airbags, NCap), but the complexity that CAN systems brought to the party is still missing. So body control units are still in the (near) future, and coding headlamps is still some distance away.
Some very good cars from that era from all manufacturers.
Electronics have made the cars faster,more powerful, safer (ABS, airbags, NCap), but the complexity that CAN systems brought to the party is still missing. So body control units are still in the (near) future, and coding headlamps is still some distance away.
Some very good cars from that era from all manufacturers.
My personal favourite design period for cars is the the 1960s. Technology had (generally) progressed past the age of drum brakes, sidevalve engines and chassis frames and even the most humble cars were designed with at least some thought to suitability for motorway use. The Italian-esque style of straight, creased lines is generally hard to get wrong and ages very well. Cars are still mechanically pretty simple and 'analogue' and with enough skill they can be kept going indefinitely because it's all just steel in various shapes and gauges.
At the same time the industry was going through a period of huge development, both in technology and demographics. Cars were still fairly new as mass-market consumer items (especially in Europe) and the world was still made up of distinct car markets with their own tastes and needs - a British car was very different from a French one, which was very different from a German one, which was very different from an American one. The settled idea of what 'the ideal car' was was in a state of flux and new ideas and developments were coming thick and fast. So as well as durable but tedious 'suet pudding' cars like Austin Cambridges, Peugeot 404s and Ford Zephyrs you had the BMC 1100/1300, the Citroen Ami, the Rover P6, the NSU Ro80 and the Oldsmobile Toranado. You could have conventional FR drivetrains, FF transverse, FF longitudinal, MF longitudinal, RR longitudinal, MR longitudinal and the first MR transverse designs. There were OHV, OHC and DOHC engines, plus the slowly rising star of diesel and rotary. Makers were experimenting with different suspension designs - wishbones, struts, hydropneumatics, swing axles, trailing arms, De Dion tubes, leaf springs (transverse and longitudinal), torsion bars and inboard brakes. There were the early 4WDs and the first SUVs like the Wagoneer and the Bronco. It was the golden age of the sports car, from cheap-and-cheerful Spridgets to hold-on-to-your-hats Big Healeys to the Jag E-type. On one side of the Atlantic you had clever little family cars like the BMC twins, the Autobianchi Primula and the Renault 16 while on the other there was the US horsepower war with ever-more-ridiculous muscle cars with OTT macho names.
It was just a much more diverse and vibrant time and if I had to pick a single decade that would be the one.
As to which decade was objectively the 'best', I'd think it was the late 80s/early 90s. Cars were mechanically reliable and durable, with enough technology to cast out the contact breaker and the carburettor but not so much as to be cripplingly fragile or complicated in old age. The cars were 'sorted' enough in terms of ride and handling for even the most dire products to be perfectly usable - it was the start of the era of the "no such thing as a truely bad car". The age-old rust problem was being put to bed by better steel, better design, better paints and the widespread use of galvanised body sections, and the 1990s was when the cliche "any car with 100,000 miles on it is on its way to the scrapyard" began to fade. There were the first true holistic efforts in secondary safety. And yet cars were still fairly simple and lightweight beasts, especially outside the uppermost realms of the market. Like the '60s the '90s were also a fairly diverse and forward-looking time with some very bold steps and some creative designs.
At the same time the industry was going through a period of huge development, both in technology and demographics. Cars were still fairly new as mass-market consumer items (especially in Europe) and the world was still made up of distinct car markets with their own tastes and needs - a British car was very different from a French one, which was very different from a German one, which was very different from an American one. The settled idea of what 'the ideal car' was was in a state of flux and new ideas and developments were coming thick and fast. So as well as durable but tedious 'suet pudding' cars like Austin Cambridges, Peugeot 404s and Ford Zephyrs you had the BMC 1100/1300, the Citroen Ami, the Rover P6, the NSU Ro80 and the Oldsmobile Toranado. You could have conventional FR drivetrains, FF transverse, FF longitudinal, MF longitudinal, RR longitudinal, MR longitudinal and the first MR transverse designs. There were OHV, OHC and DOHC engines, plus the slowly rising star of diesel and rotary. Makers were experimenting with different suspension designs - wishbones, struts, hydropneumatics, swing axles, trailing arms, De Dion tubes, leaf springs (transverse and longitudinal), torsion bars and inboard brakes. There were the early 4WDs and the first SUVs like the Wagoneer and the Bronco. It was the golden age of the sports car, from cheap-and-cheerful Spridgets to hold-on-to-your-hats Big Healeys to the Jag E-type. On one side of the Atlantic you had clever little family cars like the BMC twins, the Autobianchi Primula and the Renault 16 while on the other there was the US horsepower war with ever-more-ridiculous muscle cars with OTT macho names.
It was just a much more diverse and vibrant time and if I had to pick a single decade that would be the one.
As to which decade was objectively the 'best', I'd think it was the late 80s/early 90s. Cars were mechanically reliable and durable, with enough technology to cast out the contact breaker and the carburettor but not so much as to be cripplingly fragile or complicated in old age. The cars were 'sorted' enough in terms of ride and handling for even the most dire products to be perfectly usable - it was the start of the era of the "no such thing as a truely bad car". The age-old rust problem was being put to bed by better steel, better design, better paints and the widespread use of galvanised body sections, and the 1990s was when the cliche "any car with 100,000 miles on it is on its way to the scrapyard" began to fade. There were the first true holistic efforts in secondary safety. And yet cars were still fairly simple and lightweight beasts, especially outside the uppermost realms of the market. Like the '60s the '90s were also a fairly diverse and forward-looking time with some very bold steps and some creative designs.
I Have a feeling that your opinion on this depends on when you came of motoring age. I certainly get that impression from what people have posted so far.
For me, starting driving in the mid 80's, I would have to say that the best period for me in terms of design and styling has to be the 70s. The output of the Italian styling houses in particular (Guigaro, Pininfarina, Bertone etc.) was stupendous, clearly futuristic rather than practical. Nothing since comes close.
In terms of the whole car experience (taking into account the driving side etc. as well as the styling) the 80s (and into the mid 90s) just edge it. Technology and production techniques had evolved sufficiently with the advent of mass market fuel injection, turbos, AWD, abs, independent suspension, lower profile tyres etc. for cars to be sufficiently modem without the 'downsides' associated with the added weight from additional electronics, safety, nvh took precedence. From this period on, safety, standardisation, economy, aerodynamics etc began to have a greater influence on design.
My 2 cents...
For me, starting driving in the mid 80's, I would have to say that the best period for me in terms of design and styling has to be the 70s. The output of the Italian styling houses in particular (Guigaro, Pininfarina, Bertone etc.) was stupendous, clearly futuristic rather than practical. Nothing since comes close.
In terms of the whole car experience (taking into account the driving side etc. as well as the styling) the 80s (and into the mid 90s) just edge it. Technology and production techniques had evolved sufficiently with the advent of mass market fuel injection, turbos, AWD, abs, independent suspension, lower profile tyres etc. for cars to be sufficiently modem without the 'downsides' associated with the added weight from additional electronics, safety, nvh took precedence. From this period on, safety, standardisation, economy, aerodynamics etc began to have a greater influence on design.
My 2 cents...
My first car was a MGBGT. Simple, vaguely reliable, slow.
My preference is early 2000s- enough modern stuff to be reliable and sporty, EOBD for diagnostic work yet not so overburdened with legislated crap that makes for difficult maintenance & planned obsolescence.
For many years all my cars have been pretty much from this period- my current ones are 2005 & 2002, with a '98 motorbike.
My preference is early 2000s- enough modern stuff to be reliable and sporty, EOBD for diagnostic work yet not so overburdened with legislated crap that makes for difficult maintenance & planned obsolescence.
For many years all my cars have been pretty much from this period- my current ones are 2005 & 2002, with a '98 motorbike.
TVR Moneypit said:
So, "when was the sweet spot for automotive design"? For me, it isn't just a question of when, but also where. And I'd say that the 'when' was the 1950's and the 'where' was Detroit. Just look at the huge range of manufacturers churning out cars in 1950's America, then look at the huge variation in automotive designs. This was a time and a place when anything was possible, when the future, the near future, was beyond your most wildest dreams, and the country was awash with money and prosperity and optimism. Add all of that together and you end up with a country designing truly beautiful things, even for carrying out the most mundane of tasks, (radios, fridges, etc).
^This 100%.a8hex said:
50s stuff being slow?
Nah mate, the problem my 50s motor had was all this damn modern rubbish just kept getting in the way.
Whilst most European 'daily driver' vehicles couldn't exactly be described as 'fast' with the limitations of 1950's tyre and brake technology - and no one really seemed to bothered about high speeds with 60 mph being a happy figure for many. OK so the Jags and other larger engined vehicles were capable of much higher speeds - as was most of the Detroit iron - most US vehicles would have been capable of 100 mph speeds. Tyre technology wasn't that much of a limitation - brake and suspension technology probably was...... Nah mate, the problem my 50s motor had was all this damn modern rubbish just kept getting in the way.
roscobbc said:
a8hex said:
50s stuff being slow?
Nah mate, the problem my 50s motor had was all this damn modern rubbish just kept getting in the way.
Whilst most European 'daily driver' vehicles couldn't exactly be described as 'fast' with the limitations of 1950's tyre and brake technology - and no one really seemed to bothered about high speeds with 60 mph being a happy figure for many. OK so the Jags and other larger engined vehicles were capable of much higher speeds - as was most of the Detroit iron - most US vehicles would have been capable of 100 mph speeds. Tyre technology wasn't that much of a limitation - brake and suspension technology probably was...... Nah mate, the problem my 50s motor had was all this damn modern rubbish just kept getting in the way.
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