I want to learn to weld!
Discussion
I've just bought a new 1973 MGB GT restoration project primarily to use to learn some new skills.
I'm confident with the spanners on these old cars and will tackle most jobs myself, however I've always had to farm-out bodyworks and spraying. Now spraying is an art that is very difficult to DIY, especially with modern paints so I'm happy to let the experts do that, however I know welding is very much in the realm of the DIY enthusiast.....
I'm happy to practice, practice, practice on old bits of metal before blowing holes in the MG but I'm keen to get some opinions on what equipment a 'hobby' welder should have. Wire or rods? gas or no-gas? what power etc?
I'm confident with the spanners on these old cars and will tackle most jobs myself, however I've always had to farm-out bodyworks and spraying. Now spraying is an art that is very difficult to DIY, especially with modern paints so I'm happy to let the experts do that, however I know welding is very much in the realm of the DIY enthusiast.....
I'm happy to practice, practice, practice on old bits of metal before blowing holes in the MG but I'm keen to get some opinions on what equipment a 'hobby' welder should have. Wire or rods? gas or no-gas? what power etc?
This going to be contrary to all advice that follows, but;
I bought one of the first Clarke Gasless (flux cored wire) migs in the early 90's and it has served me very well ever since.
The main advantage is that you can weld anywhere with no worries about the shield gas blowing away. This is a huge issue if you are a DIY'er and have to weld outdoors or in less than perfect conditions. The wire is expensive but you obviously don't need to mess about with gas bottles.
Obviously a proper high(er) end system with gas will be better but won't be a portable or adaptable.
As for learning, an auto dimming helmet is more than worth the outlay and having a good reliable means of cutting sheet steel is also a must. Fabrication skills are also important, learning the CAD method (cardboard aided design) is a must. Have a look at the Project Binky videos on u-tube for lots of ideas.
The actual act of welding is indeed all about practice, the sound of the weld, wire speed, power and how fast you 'draw' along are all done and learned with practice.
Above all, have fun and try and avoid as far as possible welding whilst laying down under the car, that spatter can get into all sorts of places! For example, never tuck your trousers into your wellies and go anyway near a welder!
I bought one of the first Clarke Gasless (flux cored wire) migs in the early 90's and it has served me very well ever since.
The main advantage is that you can weld anywhere with no worries about the shield gas blowing away. This is a huge issue if you are a DIY'er and have to weld outdoors or in less than perfect conditions. The wire is expensive but you obviously don't need to mess about with gas bottles.
Obviously a proper high(er) end system with gas will be better but won't be a portable or adaptable.
As for learning, an auto dimming helmet is more than worth the outlay and having a good reliable means of cutting sheet steel is also a must. Fabrication skills are also important, learning the CAD method (cardboard aided design) is a must. Have a look at the Project Binky videos on u-tube for lots of ideas.
The actual act of welding is indeed all about practice, the sound of the weld, wire speed, power and how fast you 'draw' along are all done and learned with practice.
Above all, have fun and try and avoid as far as possible welding whilst laying down under the car, that spatter can get into all sorts of places! For example, never tuck your trousers into your wellies and go anyway near a welder!
ttiest grinders ever on project binky (challenge xtreme etc). and they really know what they're doing. why is that? just curious. I've had some 20 odd quid grinder that has served me well for ten years+ also.Large sheets of strategically placed cardboard ( the thick big box stuff) will sort out most shielding from the wind issues.
My own mig is a gas/no gas - or that may be was, as I converted it to a eurotorch last year & regret not having done so sooner - & whilst I can see the odd time when that would be handy, for 99.9% of its working life it's on the drive in front of the garage/on the concrete pad at the side of the garage so gas bottle portability isn't an issue.
My own mig is a gas/no gas - or that may be was, as I converted it to a eurotorch last year & regret not having done so sooner - & whilst I can see the odd time when that would be handy, for 99.9% of its working life it's on the drive in front of the garage/on the concrete pad at the side of the garage so gas bottle portability isn't an issue.
paintman said:
My own mig is a gas/no gas - or that may be was, as I converted it to a eurotorch last year & regret not having done so sooner - & whilst I can see the odd time when that would be handy, for 99.9% of its working life it's on the drive in front of the garage/on the concrete pad at the side of the garage so gas bottle portability isn't an issue.
I also started with a gasless MIG and whilst it did everything I needed it to, switching to non-fluxed wire with gas was a revelation. Less spatter, no white flux residue to clean off and neater, more even welds.The high capacity disposable bottles last a decent length of time with typical DIY use and the wire is much cheaper.
GreenV8S said:
I've never used a spot welder, but they look as if they might be a useful thing to have if you plan to do a lot of body repair work.
For DIY'ing you can buy (or used to be able to) a spot welding nozzle for the MIG. It holds the torch just the right distance away. With practice though you can do away with it and do spots freehand. You do have to drill a series of holes though if you use the MIG which you wouldn't need to do with a proper spot welder.colin_p said:
You do have to drill a series of holes though if you use the MIG which you wouldn't need to do with a proper spot welder.
Sod drilling the holes, that is hard work. Use a panel joggler with an integrated hole punch. Much faster and you'll likely need a joggler anyway if restoring rusty cars.Mr2Mike said:
colin_p said:
You do have to drill a series of holes though if you use the MIG which you wouldn't need to do with a proper spot welder.
Sod drilling the holes, that is hard work. Use a panel joggler with an integrated hole punch. Much faster and you'll likely need a joggler anyway if restoring rusty cars.I do have one of the stand-off shrouds but if you're going to punch one panel & plug weld the two together it's quicker to do it freehand. You must clamp the panels firmly together as near the weld site as possible.
It is possible to weld without punching but again, practice to get used to full penetration welding and be sure to clamp the panels firmly together - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Pa7zIq3VkE
Would be simple enough to make a clamp of the type pictured, perhaps an early project to do after making a welder trolley c/w bottle holder?
Neither is going to be as small/neat as a true spot weld.
ETA. Another vote for an auto-darkening helmet. An essential purchase.
I'd also suggest a tripod lamp of this type as well as good illumination is a must. https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/chl500td-halogen-f...
You can lie them down on the floor - I do - but don't bash them about or you'll likely pop the bulb.
Edited by paintman on Tuesday 24th April 09:35
Don't know if they are still for sale, but my first MiG had no cooling fan, but a thermal cut out that would stop it after a few minutes and take hours to cool down. Sound slike you're willing to spend some money, so do, on well-known maker's kit, WITH a fan!
Consider a course in welding at your local College of Knowledge. I've been on two - the first, years ago, was useless - lazy teachers who were poor welders - but more recently with wizard welders who were also keen to pass their skills on. I even got my City&Guilds Level 1 in gas welding!
Just google "welding courses". You should get to use good kit with instructors who will guide you in appreciating all the details that colin mentioned above, the wire speed, the power, the sound of the weld and the way you hold and move your torch.
John
Consider a course in welding at your local College of Knowledge. I've been on two - the first, years ago, was useless - lazy teachers who were poor welders - but more recently with wizard welders who were also keen to pass their skills on. I even got my City&Guilds Level 1 in gas welding!
Just google "welding courses". You should get to use good kit with instructors who will guide you in appreciating all the details that colin mentioned above, the wire speed, the power, the sound of the weld and the way you hold and move your torch.
John
paintman said:
ETA. Another vote for an auto-darkening helmet. An essential purchase.
I used the crappy hand held thing that came with my welder for years, and when I finally upgraded to an auto darkening helmet I wished I had bought one long ago. They aren't even very expensive these days, so a worthwhile investment.paintman said:
Mr2Mike said:
colin_p said:
You do have to drill a series of holes though if you use the MIG which you wouldn't need to do with a proper spot welder.
Sod drilling the holes, that is hard work. Use a panel joggler with an integrated hole punch. Much faster and you'll likely need a joggler anyway if restoring rusty cars.I do have one of the stand-off shrouds but if you're going to punch one panel & plug weld the two together it's quicker to do it freehand. You must clamp the panels firmly together as near the weld site as possible.
It is possible to weld without punching but again, practice to get used to full penetration welding and be sure to clamp the panels firmly together - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Pa7zIq3VkE
Would be simple enough to make a clamp of the type pictured, perhaps an early project to do after making a welder trolley c/w bottle holder?
Neither is going to be as small/neat as a true spot weld.
ETA. Another vote for an auto-darkening helmet. An essential purchase.
I'd also suggest a tripod lamp of this type as well as good illumination is a must. https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/chl500td-halogen-f...
You can lie them down on the floor - I do - but don't bash them about or you'll likely pop the bulb.
Edited by paintman on Tuesday 24th April 09:35
However I've often thought that a proper set of spots on a joggled joint would be better as you are not grinding nearly all of the weld away afterwards. On a factory seam though spots are the way forward.
Another essential in my mind is to use u-pol (or similar) weld through primer, it takes a bit of the doubt away as to how long things will last "this time"!
I've always done like for like.
If the joint is spot welded I'll plug weld.
For anything involving cutting out lumps of rusty metal & letting in a new one it's a full seam weld.
I've done a fair few of our vehicles over the years & never had an MoT issue. I'm not sure whether there's more steel in the body of my RRC that I've put in than it left the factory with in 1986.......
You may find this of interest:
https://www.mot-testing.service.gov.uk/documents/m...
"10. Acceptable methods of repair
It is essential that repairs to corroded or damaged areas are properly carried out and appear to be as strong as the original structure.
This requires that suitable materials of appropriate gauge or thickness are used and any plating or welding extends to a sound part of a load bearing member.
Where a load bearing panel was originally spot welded, it is acceptable for a replacement panel or patch repair to be spot welded along that flange, provided the original panel or section has been removed.
In all other circumstances, patch repairs must be continuously seam welded.
Stitch or plug welding is an acceptable alternative to spot welding."
Goes on to cover a lot more, incl diagrams.
If the joint is spot welded I'll plug weld.
For anything involving cutting out lumps of rusty metal & letting in a new one it's a full seam weld.
I've done a fair few of our vehicles over the years & never had an MoT issue. I'm not sure whether there's more steel in the body of my RRC that I've put in than it left the factory with in 1986.......
You may find this of interest:
https://www.mot-testing.service.gov.uk/documents/m...
"10. Acceptable methods of repair
It is essential that repairs to corroded or damaged areas are properly carried out and appear to be as strong as the original structure.
This requires that suitable materials of appropriate gauge or thickness are used and any plating or welding extends to a sound part of a load bearing member.
Where a load bearing panel was originally spot welded, it is acceptable for a replacement panel or patch repair to be spot welded along that flange, provided the original panel or section has been removed.
In all other circumstances, patch repairs must be continuously seam welded.
Stitch or plug welding is an acceptable alternative to spot welding."
Goes on to cover a lot more, incl diagrams.
Edited by paintman on Tuesday 24th April 19:22
In addition to the advice already given, I'll throw in something called a "cheater or magnifying lens". It's a plastic lens which you fit inside the helmet and gives you a magnified view the weld zone.
For an experienced welder I'm sure it's not necessary, but for a learner where it all seems to happen so quickly I found it very helpful when learning TIG welding. So much so that I now use them all the time. Cheap enough to try and throw away if you don't like them, about a fiver or so from Ebay sellers.
On gas/gasless, if you're doing a lot of welding then gas will be expensive on the smaller bottles and they always seem to run out in the middle of a session. Also you need to factor in where you're going to get them from; if you can drive to a local supplier that's great but if you rely on courier delivery then not only is there a time delay but you'll be paying carriage for the return bottle.
I bought a gas MIG and have a gas bottle but for mild steel I tend to just use flux cored/gasless wire. The big plus for getting a gas MIG set is that you can also weld Stainless & Aluminium if you use something like Argon instead of a CO2 mix.
For an experienced welder I'm sure it's not necessary, but for a learner where it all seems to happen so quickly I found it very helpful when learning TIG welding. So much so that I now use them all the time. Cheap enough to try and throw away if you don't like them, about a fiver or so from Ebay sellers.
On gas/gasless, if you're doing a lot of welding then gas will be expensive on the smaller bottles and they always seem to run out in the middle of a session. Also you need to factor in where you're going to get them from; if you can drive to a local supplier that's great but if you rely on courier delivery then not only is there a time delay but you'll be paying carriage for the return bottle.
I bought a gas MIG and have a gas bottle but for mild steel I tend to just use flux cored/gasless wire. The big plus for getting a gas MIG set is that you can also weld Stainless & Aluminium if you use something like Argon instead of a CO2 mix.
Just get gas. A 9 litre bottle lasted me 6/7 years with occoasional use, the disposables cost £20 each and last 5 mins. Don't forget the regulator.
http://www.adamsgas.co.uk/product/hobby-gas-rent-f...
http://www.adamsgas.co.uk/product/hobby-gas-rent-f...
Thank you for all the contributions and helpful advice.
At the moment, it looks like the preference is for a Gas / No Gas combination MIG welder, practice and learn the basics with a no-gas and then switch over to gas assisted for a cleaner weld on the car.
I've no intention or plan to weld stainless or aluminium, or anything much thicker than normal car body panels or simple brackets. I have a Machine Mart locally who have a good range of welding equipment, from their range what would be the best compromise between performance and cost for my MG bodywork needs? More kit, more power, more options, and more money, but I don't wish to be sold something beyond my needs:-
https://www.machinemart.co.uk/c/diy-mig-welders/?s...
Do I really need any thing more than the £200 MIG 145 No-Gas/Gas MIG Welder?
At the moment, it looks like the preference is for a Gas / No Gas combination MIG welder, practice and learn the basics with a no-gas and then switch over to gas assisted for a cleaner weld on the car.
I've no intention or plan to weld stainless or aluminium, or anything much thicker than normal car body panels or simple brackets. I have a Machine Mart locally who have a good range of welding equipment, from their range what would be the best compromise between performance and cost for my MG bodywork needs? More kit, more power, more options, and more money, but I don't wish to be sold something beyond my needs:-
https://www.machinemart.co.uk/c/diy-mig-welders/?s...
Do I really need any thing more than the £200 MIG 145 No-Gas/Gas MIG Welder?
Honestly I'd skip to the end and get a gas MIG.
I looked into gasless and it's useless for thin metals (which car bodies usually are), and the wire is pretty expensive.
I spent £250 on a Sealey Supermig 150, £100 including deposit on a 70L bottle of 95/5, and haven't spent anything except 3 rolls of wire since.
If budget is an issue buy a 2nd-hand set, something from a recognised brand. I find the 30A setting on mine to be perfect for welding thin stuff, you can keep the wire speed down and get a really good weld without having to speed around like a madman.
I looked into gasless and it's useless for thin metals (which car bodies usually are), and the wire is pretty expensive.
I spent £250 on a Sealey Supermig 150, £100 including deposit on a 70L bottle of 95/5, and haven't spent anything except 3 rolls of wire since.
If budget is an issue buy a 2nd-hand set, something from a recognised brand. I find the 30A setting on mine to be perfect for welding thin stuff, you can keep the wire speed down and get a really good weld without having to speed around like a madman.
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