Discussion
markh said:
While the seach function is down, has anyone replaced their ecu for an aftermarket unit Emerald,Motec,DTA etc, If so are you pleased with the results.
Thanks Mark
I've been running Motec for a few years now on my 4.3 Wedge. Very happy with it - its probably paid for itself with the decrease in fuel consumption alone, without altering my driving style. My car was running a flapper AFM (prehistoric, I know) which just didn't have enough flexibility to deal with the fuelling requirements of the bigger engine. The system also controls the ignition, and does away with the physical restiction of the AFM entirely. It has also meant that when I went down the bigger throttle body, BV and upped compression route (and maybe in future more mods to the induction) its a simple matter of going along to the rolling road and hooking up the lap top. Having said all of that, I think Motec is quite expensive compared to other systems, probably aimed at the race market where costs are less of an issue than performance. I got a good deal from the garage who installed it for me as they helped to develop it in the first place, being RV8 engine specialists. Unfortunately, they no longer have a rolling road. Probably the most important thing is to find a specialist who is both familiar with the system chosen, and the RV8, and who has access to a rolling road.
There are one or two cars out there with other systems on. Austec are currently doing a full Omex 700 install on a 500 Griff. However you would be hard pushed to match the fuelling sophistication of the standard 14CUX.
It is much more cost effective to add a mapped ignition system to what's there.
The Motec is an excellent system, and some of my off-road clients use this. The only thing against it really is the price tag!
Personally my favourite is the Omex 700, which offers outstanding functionality for a very reasonable price. Another good option is the MBE.
However buying the system is only a part of the cost - if you need it installed and mapped properly then you can double the price tag. If you want to know more then please ask.
I don't want to be negative, but the Emerald is at the very bottom of the pecking order in my opinion. It was originally designed for four cylinder motors on throttle bodies, with wasted spark ignition. It does this job entirely adequately.
The Emerald is also designed to be easy to program for beginners. However this means that all the complicated bits have been left off - sadly this includes most of the features that make it drive nicely and cope with atmospheric variations.
A couple of months ago I spent some time trying to get one to drive nicely on a 4.6RV8 (with a plenum), but I just couldn't make it work to the required standard. In the end we binned it and put on a 14CUX - which was vastly superior. The customer was delighted, and it is now going for a supercharger with an Omex 150 for ignition.
It is much more cost effective to add a mapped ignition system to what's there.
The Motec is an excellent system, and some of my off-road clients use this. The only thing against it really is the price tag!
Personally my favourite is the Omex 700, which offers outstanding functionality for a very reasonable price. Another good option is the MBE.
However buying the system is only a part of the cost - if you need it installed and mapped properly then you can double the price tag. If you want to know more then please ask.
I don't want to be negative, but the Emerald is at the very bottom of the pecking order in my opinion. It was originally designed for four cylinder motors on throttle bodies, with wasted spark ignition. It does this job entirely adequately.
The Emerald is also designed to be easy to program for beginners. However this means that all the complicated bits have been left off - sadly this includes most of the features that make it drive nicely and cope with atmospheric variations.
A couple of months ago I spent some time trying to get one to drive nicely on a 4.6RV8 (with a plenum), but I just couldn't make it work to the required standard. In the end we binned it and put on a 14CUX - which was vastly superior. The customer was delighted, and it is now going for a supercharger with an Omex 150 for ignition.
im about to have an omex 700 fitted in a couple of weeks.i considered all the options,and if your going to modify more than once,then this is the most cost effective route you can take.the omex 700 will cost £1450 inc vat fitted and mapped,this is with crank triggered mapped ignition.i can then sell my 14cux ecu and the airflow meter to offset the cost if i wish.this would bring the price down to at least £1100 max.i can then go to any decent rolling road in the country and have my car mapped by any number of tuners and at a variety of prices.i do plan to have a go myself also.for me theres no contest,your then out of the restrictions and costs of 14cux mapping(only about 3 people in the country can do it),which if you add up the costs of several re-maps due to adding mods each time can be frightening.as ive said already though,if your only going to modify once,definately,then the costs arent probably worth it.incidently,it isnt that big a job to return to the 14cux in the future,if you want to keep your omex 700 when you want to move on to another car.its also worth mentioning that you can modify your car without having to re-map every time.im currently running a h404 cam,fully ported inlet manifold and 45mm trumpets and still the std ecu.obviously you dont get the best from the mods,but you save a lot of money towards your next mods and final map if you see what i mean.e-mail me for further details on any of above if you wish.
You've uncovered one of the major pitfalls of the lucas system there (good though it might be).. only mark (and 2 others? who are they then?) can remap it, so if you're into constantly changing your car spec you're in for big bills if you want to get the most out of each change.
Don't know why you couldn't get the emerald to work though Mark ( [cynic] protecting your lucas market? [/cynic]
) .. i don't have any trouble and you can get it bought, fitted, and mapped for less than the cost of a lucas remap and omex controller fit/map... plus you then gain by saving money every time you change hardware on the car
.. as pointed out , it's easy to work with and there'll be a trusted emerald friendly rolling road within a short distance of wherever you are. It does even have the injector compensation for battery voltage you were bothered about before Mark and with user-configurable sites it's now even more effective at small throttle openings (maybe it's one downfall previously for absolute smallest throttle openings).
It might not be current euro-emissions compliant, but who needs that one a second-hand upgraded car and the emerald is a very good value kit with in-built traction control, user configurable outputs / shift indicator etc etc all on the latest software release. For the price it's an absolute bargain.
Best thing as always is to ask around and go with the system you feel you're happiest with for the present and future
Don't know why you couldn't get the emerald to work though Mark ( [cynic] protecting your lucas market? [/cynic]
) .. i don't have any trouble and you can get it bought, fitted, and mapped for less than the cost of a lucas remap and omex controller fit/map... plus you then gain by saving money every time you change hardware on the car .. as pointed out , it's easy to work with and there'll be a trusted emerald friendly rolling road within a short distance of wherever you are. It does even have the injector compensation for battery voltage you were bothered about before Mark and with user-configurable sites it's now even more effective at small throttle openings (maybe it's one downfall previously for absolute smallest throttle openings).
It might not be current euro-emissions compliant, but who needs that one a second-hand upgraded car and the emerald is a very good value kit with in-built traction control, user configurable outputs / shift indicator etc etc all on the latest software release. For the price it's an absolute bargain.
Best thing as always is to ask around and go with the system you feel you're happiest with for the present and future
Mark Adams said:
I don't want to be negative, but the Emerald is at the very bottom of the pecking order in my opinion. It was originally designed for four cylinder motors on throttle bodies, with wasted spark ignition. It does this job entirely adequately.
It seems to me like the Lucas was designed for a twin cylinder motor. No ignition and only 2 drivers for injectors, please explain how can this be inferior to a system that at least supports 4 injector cycles and ignition - albeit a wasted / batched system (which is surely an advantage over banked).
Dave
joospeed said:sorry jools,i dont know who the other two are who can map the 14cux,but one of the companys that advertise in sprint use one of these alternative chaps.i know this much as i rang for a quote for some mods,before finally arriving at v8d
You've uncovered one of the major pitfalls of the lucas system there (good though it might be).. only mark (and 2 others? who are they then?) can remap it, so if you're into constantly changing your car spec you're in for big bills if you want to get the most out of each change.
.ive also been informed that there are three in total including Mark,by a very reputable proffesional source,hence i quoted the three.as weve both already said though,i dont personally think its worth considering continually shelling out and adding ignition to the 14cux,when the alternatives like the omex 700 and emarald systems offer so much more flexibility and better value.I would agree.
in fact one of the key areas I'll be investigating with the new tuning business is better value alternatives than currently offered by the big names in TVR tuning. It's not healthy for the consumer to have such limited choice.
I'm keen to use local talent to form my RV8 tuning range in the future and get out of the TVR engine modify "loop" that all seems too cosy for my liking - but then i've always liked going out on a limb to prove whether stuff works or not. If something doesn't work you'll hear about it, and i won't sell it. If it does work I'll be pleased to sell it
I have one of the country's best engine builders not 20 miles from me, and one of the best head modifiers only 10 miles away from me.
in fact one of the key areas I'll be investigating with the new tuning business is better value alternatives than currently offered by the big names in TVR tuning. It's not healthy for the consumer to have such limited choice.
I'm keen to use local talent to form my RV8 tuning range in the future and get out of the TVR engine modify "loop" that all seems too cosy for my liking - but then i've always liked going out on a limb to prove whether stuff works or not. If something doesn't work you'll hear about it, and i won't sell it. If it does work I'll be pleased to sell it
I have one of the country's best engine builders not 20 miles from me, and one of the best head modifiers only 10 miles away from me.
joospeed said:good for you jools,top man
in fact one of the key areas I'll be investigating with the new tuning business is better value alternatives than currently offered by the big names in TVR tuning. It's not healthy for the consumer to have such limited choice.
.its so good to hear such honest business ethics.i wince sometimes,when i see how people have spent so much of there hard earned on modding there car and get so much less out of it than they could have got,often for much less outlay.people buying bigger injectors at £600 a set when they could have uprated the fuel pressure for example,re-mapping and rolling road costs for every slightest little mod when they could have waited until it was more cost effective,buying bits that make little difference because other mods havent been done that are necesary.the trouble is,the more it costs,the more 'elitist' it becomes,and many fall into this cleaver marketing trap,thinking that the more you pay means youll automatically get more.this is where i cant reccomend those chaps at v8 developments enough,theyll tell you honestly how best to spend your hard earned and will talk you out of wasting your money on something that wont work or you dont need.owners of our cars need more people like them and you joolsWhat potentially could have been an interesting thread once again is being spoilt by sniping/ underhand comments, i'm not happy to read suggestions that the "larger" TVR tuning specialists are in any way dishonest, also note that it's never their customers who make negative comments.
Nothing wrong with reporting on your own thoughts on modifications but keep it technical and respectful of others.
If we can keep it technical i guarantee it will make interesting reading, as i have no doubt Mark Adams etc would be willing to join in and explain for example the benefits of £600 injectors over turning up the fuel pressure.
Kind regards to all Tim
Nothing wrong with reporting on your own thoughts on modifications but keep it technical and respectful of others.
If we can keep it technical i guarantee it will make interesting reading, as i have no doubt Mark Adams etc would be willing to join in and explain for example the benefits of £600 injectors over turning up the fuel pressure.
Kind regards to all Tim
2 sheds said:
What potentially could have been an interesting thread once again is being spoilt by sniping/ underhand comments, i'm not happy to read suggestions that the "larger" TVR tuning specialists are in any way dishonest, also note that it's never their customers who make negative comments.
Nothing wrong with reporting on your own thoughts on modifications but keep it technical and respectful of others.
If we can keep it technical i guarantee it will make interesting reading, as i have no doubt Mark Adams etc would be willing to join in and explain for example the benefits of £600 injectors over turning up the fuel pressure.
Kind regards to all Tim
Mark should be along at any time, he said on the phone yesterday that he would be looking forward to contributing on this thread 
Tim,your reaction is very interesting.im sorry you feel the comments are underhand,they certainly werent directed at anyone in particular.my comments are based on fact,and i know you dont need a new set of larger injectors until you reach 320bhp as i was very professionally advised,as im still running std ones on mine.this is technical comment surely?pointing out the cost saving is the whole point of justifying the alternative mod.no one has said anyone is dishonest,and i beg to differ that there are some unhappy customers out there,some of whom ive spoken to personaly,but weather were talking of the same'larger'companies i dont know or care.jools hit the nail on the head when he mentioned the 'cosy loop' that really does exist.theres nothing wrong in highlighting the alternatives surely?i have the greatest of respect for the likes of mark,and youself for the technical knowlege and ability you have and the quality products you sell.its just a shame that many folk spend a lot of money needlessly as theyre not always made aware of the often better value(especially long term like different ecu's) alternatives.yours respectfully,mongoose.
OK guys - get ready for possibly the longest PistonHeads post ever! Please stick with it because there's something for everyone here.
Normally I sit back and watch this stuff go on - I don't usually post since I clearly have a vested interest. However I cannot hold back any longer and watch some of the kiddies stamping on other people's sand-castles.
It must also be said that I am glad this thread has come up. Rarely before have I seen so much misinformation, oversimplification, and plain ignorance touted as knowledge. I shall deal with each of the issues raised here in turn, hence the long post. Hopefully you will gain an insight into some of the complexities that you don't even know were there.
Many of you have only managed to score two out of ten at best for your homework - must try harder next time. You're just lucky the cane is banned....
Firstly I resent the clear implication that there is a cosy self-serving cartel, devoted only to extracting cash from the owners. The reason that the same names come up again and again is that there is a group of individuals who cooperate together, sharing knowledge and research for the benefit of everyone (ultimately our customers). That way we can cover more ground and move on faster - this is too big a subject area for any one person.
I take great pride in my business ethics, as do the other "big names in TVR tuning" including Jools. It is a fact that everything I provide has been dyno-developed and all products are backed with a money-back guarantee. All products and services offered have been developed over the last fifteen years, over the course of testing more than 2,500 motors over thousands of dyno hours. Also they are also carefully developed to offer good value, in modular increments.
In that 2,500, there must be one or two unhappy ones. Again if there are any then I want to hear from them, because I do care about each one. A second-hand report of someone's friend's uncle's sister's cousin wasn't happy just doesn't help.
If you think that all the existing knowledge and experience available is worthless, and may be rejected then please show me your new thinking. I am always keen to explore old and new ideas, and boat-rockers are welcome. Good luck to you and bring it on....
Now the technical bits.
Injectors and do we need to upgrade them?
Yes and I'll explain why, although it's a pity nobody bothered to ask before expressing an opinion. There are two problems with the standard injectors, which are related to both the basic design and the flow capacity.
Lucas injectors are a disc type design - that is they have a disc that sits over a metering hole in a plate. The disc is lifted off the hole by the solenoid to allow fuel to flow. The more you increase the fuel pressure, the more difficult it becomes to lift the disc off the hole. There comes a point at around 3.3 Bar where the fuel flow actually starts to drop as you increase the pressure.
Futhermore, increasing the fuel pressure actually changes the battery voltage corrections required for the injector. This requires the corresponding rework of the ECU software including cranking tables. So it is not just a simple matter of increase the pressure no worries, unless you have no understanding of the implications.
Yet another factor to be considered is that of fuel pump flow rates. Flow rates drop exponentially with increasing pressure, so again it is desirable to keep the pressure as low as possible, commensurate with good atomisation.
When I remap the 5.0 Litre cars, it is almost always necessary to increase the fuel pressure from the standard 2.5 Bar (36PSI) to 3.0 Bar (45PSI). Even with this assistance they are nearing 100% opening at full power. Injectors that are ideally sized should not really be open more than 80% duty cycle, to allow room for transient enrichment and high load operation of a cold engine.
V8 Developments and John Eales get more power and torque out of available fuel by producing exceptionally efficient heads.
Lastly there is the issue of droplet size. Since the flow from a disc-type injector is only partly atomised as it comes through the metering hole, the job is completed by a plastic diffuser under the hole. What you end up with is fairly large droplets, or sometimes just a jet of fuel.
An obvious truth I learnt from someone at Ilmor Mercedes (Formula One for those who don't know) is that fuel droplets burn from the outside in. The corollary of this is that the smaller they are the quicker they burn, and the more energy you get out of them. In Formula One, they don't get long to burn the fuel and fuel economy is also important.
At Austec, we did several back-to-back tests on a healthy late 5.0 Litre Griffith. This car was perfectly healthy in all respects except for a major injector problem. It was first fitted with a set new flow-matched standard injectors (we have three flow grades for standard injectors) and fully mapped. It was then fitted with Bosch injectors and reprogrammed to suit. The car picked up 9lb/ft of torque across the board, and even sounded different.
It is a great pity that the injectors are so expensive, because it would be a no-brainer to fit them if they were cheap enough. Although the gains are clear, it is the killing price that puts people off. We are trying to source some cheaper ones, so watch this space.
Note that the 4.5 Cerbie has a bigger version of the disc injector, and responds even better to similar therapy.
Is remapping a 14CUX really cost effective?
The figure of £700+VAT odd is often bandied about as the cost of remapping a 14CUX. This is often what people do spend, but it is not all on the remapping. All prices I use here are UK Pounds Sterling, excluding VAT.
For any car that I have not seen before, the first two hours of the session will be a full diagnostic of the vehicle - probably the most thorough it has ever had. The ignition, fuel delivery, EFI sensors, EFI computer, compressions, spark plugs, camshaft, power output etc., will all be scrutinised.
Unless all these things are correct, there is no point in mapping the car. If I were a Bandit I could remap them anyway and keep quiet, safe in the knowledge that it would go better anyway. Financially I have a dis-incentive to turning cars away, but I think it is more important for them to be right.
Depending on the venue, then this is likely to cost around £120 per hour. It is not however part of the remapping process.
If all tests are clear, then the new software is loaded and fully mapped. This process usually takes only one hour, although it can go up to one-and-a-half hours. So the actual remapping cost is £350+VAT for the chip, and £120+VAT for the labour.
This leaves the total remapping cost at £470.
One you have my software, it can be re-worked again and again. In addition I keep a properly backed-up record of the car and it's software so that it can be reproduced for the owner. Note that I also do this for all my other management system customers. If an ECU should go down then a replacement could be programmed and sent out immediately, or if any changes are required then I can do this also.
If you go the 14CUX route then you are stuck with me - I appreciate this and have never exploited my privileged position in this respect.
Again if the management system is being changed, I would expect anyone to do the same level of preparation. After all it is attention to detail that separates the Master from the Novice.
In future, changes are around one to one-and-a-half hours. As long as the car remains unmodified, there will be no changes to the fuelling in the coming years thanks to the airflow meter. Therefore remapping costs are lower with the 14CUX than with any other system. Just for reference a throttle-angle system will commonly take around three hours for rework, and unless it has the sophisticated adaptation of the MBE or Omex 700 (when used with Lambda sensors) then it will require periodic recalibration as the engine ages.
If you do want to use an alternative system, then I'm happy to do that too. It just isn't cheaper.
I also know for a fact that there is nobody in the world who has set up more Rover V8s on the rolling road - it's a question of whether you want a specialist who understands the motors rather than a general-purpose tuning shop.
So why bother to add mapped ignition to a 14CUX instead of binning it for something newer?
There are still no after-market systems that can better a 14CUX for fuelling accuracy and good manners. I know this because I have tried many of them! It can also be diagnosed and maintained by any competant Land Rover garage in the world.
Adding an Omex ignition processor costs around £600 including the crank trigger, which accounts for £140 itself. Note that the crank pulley always has to be rebalanced on TVR 5.0 Litre cars after adding a trigger wheel, since it goes where the balancing skirt is removed. Another thing your general-purpose tuning shop wouldn't know.
In addition, you will spend another hour to one and-a-half hours on the dyno for mapping.
So if you go the Omex/14CUX route at the same time, the total cost is around £1250. Long-term cost of ownership is slightly lower when you take into account the quicker remap times. The beauty of this approach is that you don't have to do it all in one go. So it is the cheaper route!
If your Omex should pop off (unknown to date) whilst you are touring in Europe, you just reconnect the old ignition amplifier and off you go.
Which is my favourite after-market system?
This is a no-brainer. The Omex 700 is the first system with so many features at the price. Nothing comes close.
With regard to the Austec Omex 700 install that I am working on, this car still has a plenum. The finished car uses wasted-spark ignition, Lambda control on each bank, airflow metering, and semi-sequential injection. The final bill with install mapping will be around £2000-2500 for this complete install. This is what it takes to do it properly, so we wouldn't do it for less.
Just a note for Mikey Mongoose. If your motor is the V8D one going through at the moment, then it will actually have my cranking, temperature and ignition correction, accel/decel fuelling, coil and injector correction maps, etc., in anyway. This is because I work very closely with the fine fellows there!
Can I dodge this remapping stuff at all?
The only way to do this is to use the Lucas-GEMS system, commonly found lurking under the bonnet of the P38A Range Rover. This has wide-band oxygen sensors, knock sensors and an airflow meter. It is fully closed-loop for fuelling and ignition - each cylinder is mapped individually. Nothing else is even remotely as good - this is what I have on my own car.
New heads Sir? New cam Sir? New exhaust system Sir? Just bolt it on and drive it around a bit. Sorted!
The last bit (Yippee!) - Sequential, semi-sequential, banked, or all together?
You might care, but the motor doesn't. It makes not one jot of difference to this type of motor. Norris Sausage in fact, whoever he is.
Semi sequential is nice since you don't have to add a cam sensor, and firing only two injectors at the same time reduces pressure pulsing in the fuel rail.
Sequential injection reduces hydrocarbons at idle, and that's it. All sequential systems that I am aware of (excluding very high end high pressure systems on F1 motors) revert to semi sequential at mid revs anyway, in order to get the fuel in in the alloted time.
>> Edited by Mark Adams on Saturday 30th April 16:50
Normally I sit back and watch this stuff go on - I don't usually post since I clearly have a vested interest. However I cannot hold back any longer and watch some of the kiddies stamping on other people's sand-castles.
It must also be said that I am glad this thread has come up. Rarely before have I seen so much misinformation, oversimplification, and plain ignorance touted as knowledge. I shall deal with each of the issues raised here in turn, hence the long post. Hopefully you will gain an insight into some of the complexities that you don't even know were there.
Many of you have only managed to score two out of ten at best for your homework - must try harder next time. You're just lucky the cane is banned....
Firstly I resent the clear implication that there is a cosy self-serving cartel, devoted only to extracting cash from the owners. The reason that the same names come up again and again is that there is a group of individuals who cooperate together, sharing knowledge and research for the benefit of everyone (ultimately our customers). That way we can cover more ground and move on faster - this is too big a subject area for any one person.
I take great pride in my business ethics, as do the other "big names in TVR tuning" including Jools. It is a fact that everything I provide has been dyno-developed and all products are backed with a money-back guarantee. All products and services offered have been developed over the last fifteen years, over the course of testing more than 2,500 motors over thousands of dyno hours. Also they are also carefully developed to offer good value, in modular increments.
In that 2,500, there must be one or two unhappy ones. Again if there are any then I want to hear from them, because I do care about each one. A second-hand report of someone's friend's uncle's sister's cousin wasn't happy just doesn't help.
If you think that all the existing knowledge and experience available is worthless, and may be rejected then please show me your new thinking. I am always keen to explore old and new ideas, and boat-rockers are welcome. Good luck to you and bring it on....
Now the technical bits.
Injectors and do we need to upgrade them?
Yes and I'll explain why, although it's a pity nobody bothered to ask before expressing an opinion. There are two problems with the standard injectors, which are related to both the basic design and the flow capacity.
Lucas injectors are a disc type design - that is they have a disc that sits over a metering hole in a plate. The disc is lifted off the hole by the solenoid to allow fuel to flow. The more you increase the fuel pressure, the more difficult it becomes to lift the disc off the hole. There comes a point at around 3.3 Bar where the fuel flow actually starts to drop as you increase the pressure.
Futhermore, increasing the fuel pressure actually changes the battery voltage corrections required for the injector. This requires the corresponding rework of the ECU software including cranking tables. So it is not just a simple matter of increase the pressure no worries, unless you have no understanding of the implications.
Yet another factor to be considered is that of fuel pump flow rates. Flow rates drop exponentially with increasing pressure, so again it is desirable to keep the pressure as low as possible, commensurate with good atomisation.
When I remap the 5.0 Litre cars, it is almost always necessary to increase the fuel pressure from the standard 2.5 Bar (36PSI) to 3.0 Bar (45PSI). Even with this assistance they are nearing 100% opening at full power. Injectors that are ideally sized should not really be open more than 80% duty cycle, to allow room for transient enrichment and high load operation of a cold engine.
V8 Developments and John Eales get more power and torque out of available fuel by producing exceptionally efficient heads.
Lastly there is the issue of droplet size. Since the flow from a disc-type injector is only partly atomised as it comes through the metering hole, the job is completed by a plastic diffuser under the hole. What you end up with is fairly large droplets, or sometimes just a jet of fuel.
An obvious truth I learnt from someone at Ilmor Mercedes (Formula One for those who don't know) is that fuel droplets burn from the outside in. The corollary of this is that the smaller they are the quicker they burn, and the more energy you get out of them. In Formula One, they don't get long to burn the fuel and fuel economy is also important.
At Austec, we did several back-to-back tests on a healthy late 5.0 Litre Griffith. This car was perfectly healthy in all respects except for a major injector problem. It was first fitted with a set new flow-matched standard injectors (we have three flow grades for standard injectors) and fully mapped. It was then fitted with Bosch injectors and reprogrammed to suit. The car picked up 9lb/ft of torque across the board, and even sounded different.
It is a great pity that the injectors are so expensive, because it would be a no-brainer to fit them if they were cheap enough. Although the gains are clear, it is the killing price that puts people off. We are trying to source some cheaper ones, so watch this space.
Note that the 4.5 Cerbie has a bigger version of the disc injector, and responds even better to similar therapy.
Is remapping a 14CUX really cost effective?
The figure of £700+VAT odd is often bandied about as the cost of remapping a 14CUX. This is often what people do spend, but it is not all on the remapping. All prices I use here are UK Pounds Sterling, excluding VAT.
For any car that I have not seen before, the first two hours of the session will be a full diagnostic of the vehicle - probably the most thorough it has ever had. The ignition, fuel delivery, EFI sensors, EFI computer, compressions, spark plugs, camshaft, power output etc., will all be scrutinised.
Unless all these things are correct, there is no point in mapping the car. If I were a Bandit I could remap them anyway and keep quiet, safe in the knowledge that it would go better anyway. Financially I have a dis-incentive to turning cars away, but I think it is more important for them to be right.
Depending on the venue, then this is likely to cost around £120 per hour. It is not however part of the remapping process.
If all tests are clear, then the new software is loaded and fully mapped. This process usually takes only one hour, although it can go up to one-and-a-half hours. So the actual remapping cost is £350+VAT for the chip, and £120+VAT for the labour.
This leaves the total remapping cost at £470.
One you have my software, it can be re-worked again and again. In addition I keep a properly backed-up record of the car and it's software so that it can be reproduced for the owner. Note that I also do this for all my other management system customers. If an ECU should go down then a replacement could be programmed and sent out immediately, or if any changes are required then I can do this also.
If you go the 14CUX route then you are stuck with me - I appreciate this and have never exploited my privileged position in this respect.
Again if the management system is being changed, I would expect anyone to do the same level of preparation. After all it is attention to detail that separates the Master from the Novice.
In future, changes are around one to one-and-a-half hours. As long as the car remains unmodified, there will be no changes to the fuelling in the coming years thanks to the airflow meter. Therefore remapping costs are lower with the 14CUX than with any other system. Just for reference a throttle-angle system will commonly take around three hours for rework, and unless it has the sophisticated adaptation of the MBE or Omex 700 (when used with Lambda sensors) then it will require periodic recalibration as the engine ages.
If you do want to use an alternative system, then I'm happy to do that too. It just isn't cheaper.
I also know for a fact that there is nobody in the world who has set up more Rover V8s on the rolling road - it's a question of whether you want a specialist who understands the motors rather than a general-purpose tuning shop.
So why bother to add mapped ignition to a 14CUX instead of binning it for something newer?
There are still no after-market systems that can better a 14CUX for fuelling accuracy and good manners. I know this because I have tried many of them! It can also be diagnosed and maintained by any competant Land Rover garage in the world.
Adding an Omex ignition processor costs around £600 including the crank trigger, which accounts for £140 itself. Note that the crank pulley always has to be rebalanced on TVR 5.0 Litre cars after adding a trigger wheel, since it goes where the balancing skirt is removed. Another thing your general-purpose tuning shop wouldn't know.
In addition, you will spend another hour to one and-a-half hours on the dyno for mapping.
So if you go the Omex/14CUX route at the same time, the total cost is around £1250. Long-term cost of ownership is slightly lower when you take into account the quicker remap times. The beauty of this approach is that you don't have to do it all in one go. So it is the cheaper route!
If your Omex should pop off (unknown to date) whilst you are touring in Europe, you just reconnect the old ignition amplifier and off you go.
Which is my favourite after-market system?
This is a no-brainer. The Omex 700 is the first system with so many features at the price. Nothing comes close.
With regard to the Austec Omex 700 install that I am working on, this car still has a plenum. The finished car uses wasted-spark ignition, Lambda control on each bank, airflow metering, and semi-sequential injection. The final bill with install mapping will be around £2000-2500 for this complete install. This is what it takes to do it properly, so we wouldn't do it for less.
Just a note for Mikey Mongoose. If your motor is the V8D one going through at the moment, then it will actually have my cranking, temperature and ignition correction, accel/decel fuelling, coil and injector correction maps, etc., in anyway. This is because I work very closely with the fine fellows there!
Can I dodge this remapping stuff at all?
The only way to do this is to use the Lucas-GEMS system, commonly found lurking under the bonnet of the P38A Range Rover. This has wide-band oxygen sensors, knock sensors and an airflow meter. It is fully closed-loop for fuelling and ignition - each cylinder is mapped individually. Nothing else is even remotely as good - this is what I have on my own car.
New heads Sir? New cam Sir? New exhaust system Sir? Just bolt it on and drive it around a bit. Sorted!
The last bit (Yippee!) - Sequential, semi-sequential, banked, or all together?
You might care, but the motor doesn't. It makes not one jot of difference to this type of motor. Norris Sausage in fact, whoever he is.
Semi sequential is nice since you don't have to add a cam sensor, and firing only two injectors at the same time reduces pressure pulsing in the fuel rail.
Sequential injection reduces hydrocarbons at idle, and that's it. All sequential systems that I am aware of (excluding very high end high pressure systems on F1 motors) revert to semi sequential at mid revs anyway, in order to get the fuel in in the alloted time.
>> Edited by Mark Adams on Saturday 30th April 16:50
Mark Adams said:
OK guys - get ready for possibly the longest PistonHeads post ever! Please stick with it because there's something for everyone here.
Normally I sit back and watch this stuff go on - I don't usually post since I clearly have a vested interest. However I cannot hold back any longer and watch some of the kiddies stamping on other people's sand-castles.
It must also be said that I am glad this thread has come up. Rarely before have I seen so much misinformation, oversimplification, and plain ignorance touted as knowledge. I shall deal with each of the issues raised here in turn, hence the long post. Hopefully you will gain an insight into some of the complexities that you don't even know were there.
Many of you have only managed to score two out of ten at best for your homework - must try harder next time. You're just lucky the cane is banned....
Firstly I resent the clear implication that there is a cosy self-serving cartel, devoted only to extracting cash from the owners. The reason that the same names come up again and again is that there is a group of individuals who cooperate together, sharing knowledge and research for the benefit of everyone (ultimately our customers). That way we can cover more ground and move on faster - this is too big a subject area for any one person.
I take great pride in my business ethics, as do the other "big names in TVR tuning" including Jools. It is a fact that everything I provide has been dyno-developed and all products are backed with a money-back guarantee. All products and services offered have been developed over the last fifteen years, over the course of testing more than 2,500 motors over thousands of dyno hours. Also they are also carefully developed to offer good value, in modular increments.
In that 2,500, there must be one or two unhappy ones. Again if there are any then I want to hear from them, because I do care about each one. A second-hand report of someone's friend's uncle's sister's cousin wasn't happy just doesn't help.
If you think that all the existing knowledge and experience available is worthless, and may be rejected then please show me your new thinking. I am always keen to explore old and new ideas, and boat-rockers are welcome. Good luck to you and bring it on....
Now the technical bits.
Injectors and do we need to upgrade them?
Yes and I'll explain why, although it's a pity nobody bothered to ask before expressing an opinion. There are two problems with the standard injectors, which are related to both the basic design and the flow capacity.
Lucas injectors are a disc type design - that is they have a disc that sits over a metering hole in a plate. The disc is lifted off the hole by the solenoid to allow fuel to flow. The more you increase the fuel pressure, the more difficult it becomes to lift the disc off the hole. There comes a point at around 3.3 Bar where the fuel flow actually starts to drop as you increase the pressure.
Futhermore, increasing the fuel pressure actually changes the battery voltage corrections required for the injector. This requires the corresponding rework of the ECU software including cranking tables. So it is not just a simple matter of increase the pressure no worries, unless you have no understanding of the implications.
Yet another factor to be considered is that of fuel pump flow rates. Flow rates drop exponentially with increasing pressure, so again it is desirable to keep the pressure as low as possible, commensurate with good atomisation.
When I remap the 5.0 Litre cars, it is almost always necessary to increase the fuel pressure from the standard 2.5 Bar (36PSI) to 3.0 Bar (45PSI). Even with this assistance they are nearing 100% opening at full power. Injectors that are ideally sized should not really be open more than 80% duty cycle, to allow room for transient enrichment and high load operation of a cold engine.
V8 Developments and John Eales get more power and torque out of available fuel by producing exceptionally efficient heads.
Lastly there is the issue of droplet size. Since the flow from a disc-type injector is only partly atomised as it comes through the metering hole, the job is completed by a plastic diffuser under the hole. What you end up with is fairly large droplets, or sometimes just a jet of fuel.
An obvious truth I learnt from someone at Ilmor Mercedes (Formula One for those who don't know) is that fuel droplets burn from the outside in. The corollary of this is that the smaller they are the quicker they burn, and the more energy you get out of them. In Formula One, they don't get long to burn the fuel and fuel economy is also important.
At Austec, we did several back-to-back tests on a healthy late 5.0 Litre Griffith. This car was perfectly healthy in all respects except for a major injector problem. It was first fitted with a set new flow-matched standard injectors (we have three flow grades for standard injectors) and fully mapped. It was then fitted with Bosch injectors and reprogrammed to suit. The car picked up 9lb/ft of torque across the board, and even sounded different.
It is a great pity that the injectors are so expensive, because it would be a no-brainer to fit them if they were cheap enough. Although the gains are clear, it is the killing price that puts people off. We are trying to source some cheaper ones, so watch this space.
Note that the 4.5 Cerbie has a bigger version of the disc injector, and responds even better to similar therapy.
Is remapping a 14CUX really cost effective?
The figure of £700+VAT odd is often bandied about as the cost of remapping a 14CUX. This is often what people do spend, but it is not all on the remapping. All prices I use here are UK Pounds Sterling, excluding VAT.
For any car that I have not seen before, the first two hours of the session will be a full diagnostic of the vehicle - probably the most thorough it has ever had. The ignition, fuel delivery, EFI sensors, EFI computer, compressions, spark plugs, camshaft, power output etc., will all be scrutinised.
Unless all these things are correct, there is no point in mapping the car. If I were a Bandit I could remap them anyway and keep quiet, safe in the knowledge that it would go better anyway. Financially I have a dis-incentive to turning cars away, but I think it is more important for them to be right.
Depending on the venue, then this is likely to cost around £120 per hour. It is not however part of the remapping process.
If all tests are clear, then the new software is loaded and fully mapped. This process usually takes only one hour, although it can go up to one-and-a-half hours. So the actual remapping cost is £350+VAT for the chip, and £120+VAT for the labour.
This leaves the total remapping cost at £470.
One you have my software, it can be re-worked again and again. In addition I keep a properly backed-up record of the car and it's software so that it can be reproduced for the owner. Note that I also do this for all my other management system customers. If an ECU should go down then a replacement could be programmed and sent out immediately, or if any changes are required then I can do this also.
If you go the 14CUX route then you are stuck with me - I appreciate this and have never exploited my privileged position in this respect.
Again if the management system is being changed, I would expect anyone to do the same level of preparation. After all it is attention to detail that separates the Master from the Novice.
In future, changes are around one to one-and-a-half hours. As long as the car remains unmodified, there will be no changes to the fuelling in the coming years thanks to the airflow meter. Therefore remapping costs are lower with the 14CUX than with any other system. Just for reference a throttle-angle system will commonly take around three hours for rework, and unless it has the sophisticated adaptation of the MBE or Omex 700 (when used with Lambda sensors) then it will require periodic recalibration as the engine ages.
If you do want to use an alternative system, then I'm happy to do that too. It just isn't cheaper.
I also know for a fact that there is nobody in the world who has set up more Rover V8s on the rolling road - it's a question of whether you want a specialist who understands the motors rather than a general-purpose tuning shop.
So why bother to add mapped ignition to a 14CUX instead of binning it for something newer?
There are still no after-market systems that can better a 14CUX for fuelling accuracy and good manners. I know this because I have tried many of them! It can also be diagnosed and maintained by any competant Land Rover garage in the world.
Adding an Omex ignition processor costs around £600 including the crank trigger, which accounts for £140 itself. Note that the crank pulley always has to be rebalanced on TVR 5.0 Litre cars after adding a trigger wheel, since it goes where the balancing skirt is removed. Another thing your general-purpose tuning shop wouldn't know.
In addition, you will spend another hour to one and-a-half hours on the dyno for mapping.
So if you go the Omex/14CUX route at the same time, the total cost is around £1250. Long-term cost of ownership is slightly lower when you take into account the quicker remap times. The beauty of this approach is that you don't have to do it all in one go. So it is the cheaper route!
If your Omex should pop off (unknown to date) whilst you are touring in Europe, you just reconnect the old ignition amplifier and off you go.
Which is my favourite after-market system?
This is a no-brainer. The Omex 700 is the first system with so many features at the price. Nothing comes close.
With regard to the Austec Omex 700 install that I am working on, this car still has a plenum. The finished car uses wasted-spark ignition, Lambda control on each bank, airflow metering, and semi-sequential injection. The final bill with install mapping will be around £2000-2500 for this complete install. This is what it takes to do it properly, so we wouldn't do it for less.
Just a note for Mikey Mongoose. If your motor is the V8D one going through at the moment, then it will actually have my cranking, temperature and ignition correction, accel/decel fuelling, coil and injector correction maps, etc., in anyway. This is because I work very closely with the fine fellows there!
Can I dodge this remapping stuff at all?
The only way to do this is to use the Lucas-GEMS system, commonly found lurking under the bonnet of the P38A Range Rover. This has wide-band oxygen sensors, knock sensors and an airflow meter. It is fully closed-loop for fuelling and ignition - each cylinder is mapped individually. Nothing else is even remotely as good - this is what I have on my own car.
New heads Sir? New cam Sir? New exhaust system Sir? Just bolt it on and drive it around a bit. Sorted!
The last bit (Yippee!) - Sequential, semi-sequential, banked, or all together?
You might care, but the motor doesn't. It makes not one jot of difference to this type of motor. Norris Sausage in fact, whoever he is.
Semi sequential is nice since you don't have to add a cam sensor, and firing only two injectors at the same time reduces pressure pulsing in the fuel rail.
Sequential injection reduces hydrocarbons at idle, and that's it. All sequential systems that I am aware of (excluding very high end high pressure systems on F1 motors) revert to semi sequential at mid revs anyway, in order to get the fuel in in the alloted time.
>> Edited by Mark Adams on Saturday 30th April 16:50
mark,the way in which you have replied really sums up exactly what i was getting at. trying to justify keeping the 14cux in the way which you have done,by talking of how sophisticated it is,only serves to prove my point.yes we know that its very sophisticated at what it does,but you dont need it.we know that those £600 injectors work well,but you dont need them(up to 320bhp anyway).talking of compensation for engine wear is plain crazy really-just how quick will your engine wear significantly,and youll still be able to compensate for it.the simple facts are as ive already stated,itll cost me £1150 max inc vat to have an omex 700 system fitted and mapped professionally.my car will run very well,even though im on std. injectors,i wont need a larger airflow meter either(forgot that extra expense of sticking with the lucas),and i can now go to whom i choose to get it mapped,at competative prices.i really do appreciate that you are a very knowlegable chap when it comes to all this,and can understand that you want to protect your interests,but you are too expensive for me im afraid.and once you invest in 14cux mapping,it makes it even harder to pull out at a later date to invest in an omex or emerald etc.nice for you though.edited to say:-its not my car at v8d by the way.
>> Edited by mongoose on Saturday 30th April 20:25
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