Your opinions please...
Discussion
I have about 15 years experience in IT (mostly contracting), the last 4 years have been in my only permanent position with my current firm. This company is huge and very well known. I took the role because it opened some doors in the future, wasn't available for contract (perm only) and I've been given good grades and reviews during my time there.
I work for a lazy, incompetent 36 year old manager who smiles to your face (when he has to) but generally avoids anything to do with me. The type that tries to catch you out on stuff when you don't have anything to worry about (his guilty conscience maybe?).
He's been my manager for almost 2 years now; I've had about 4 meetings with him (in total about 2 hours of his attention) in all that time and he doesn't care one bit about anyone else or what they do so long as his boss doesn't give him grief. He demoralises his staff, goes to the pub & bookies during working hours, promotes and surrounds himself with his 3 mates, bunks off work frequently, etc. Numerous junior staff have complained to me about him since the start of this year and are all saying the same things I have experienced. It got to the point where I raised these concerns with my managers boss as people are now starting to leave. I too have been going to interviews recently; I'm also looking to leave but nothing solid emerged yet.
4 weeks ago my bosses boss (the one I spoke to - mr senior manager) called me into a room and explained that the department is having a reshuffle - I'm not part of his plans or team going forward (i.e. please clear off). He has suggested I speak to some other manager about another role available, which turned out to be nothing like my existing role - I politely rejected it saying it has nothing to do with my career path.
Last week I spoke mr senior manager and politely explained that I understand he wants to reshuffle his team and I'm not looking to cause trouble or anything - would redundancy be possible (since I'm already looking...I have nothing to lose). He agreed to speak to our HR department.
Yesterday through our company chat messenger mr senior manager types..."the short answer is voluntary redundancy is not supported. we will catch up on Thursday."
It's been about a month now since being told I'm not wanted and there doesn't seem to be any suitable jobs (I'm left in limbo).
Personally I don't want to stick around working for this company any more and they probably know this (it's only a matter of time until I get a new role - maybe in a month or two I guess) - I've been left in this no mans land situation. They don't want me, barely talk to me, have no jobs for me but at the same time don't want to let me go / pay me to leave (I can't imagine 4 years service will be very costly to them). Instead they are going down the route of trying to put me in a job I just don't want - whatever that may end up being.
A small group I get on with know what has been going on have said they are crazy - things will just stop working once I leave since I'm the only person that developed and support some systems \ apps. They are also looking to leave.
How would you progress from here?
I work for a lazy, incompetent 36 year old manager who smiles to your face (when he has to) but generally avoids anything to do with me. The type that tries to catch you out on stuff when you don't have anything to worry about (his guilty conscience maybe?).
He's been my manager for almost 2 years now; I've had about 4 meetings with him (in total about 2 hours of his attention) in all that time and he doesn't care one bit about anyone else or what they do so long as his boss doesn't give him grief. He demoralises his staff, goes to the pub & bookies during working hours, promotes and surrounds himself with his 3 mates, bunks off work frequently, etc. Numerous junior staff have complained to me about him since the start of this year and are all saying the same things I have experienced. It got to the point where I raised these concerns with my managers boss as people are now starting to leave. I too have been going to interviews recently; I'm also looking to leave but nothing solid emerged yet.
4 weeks ago my bosses boss (the one I spoke to - mr senior manager) called me into a room and explained that the department is having a reshuffle - I'm not part of his plans or team going forward (i.e. please clear off). He has suggested I speak to some other manager about another role available, which turned out to be nothing like my existing role - I politely rejected it saying it has nothing to do with my career path.
Last week I spoke mr senior manager and politely explained that I understand he wants to reshuffle his team and I'm not looking to cause trouble or anything - would redundancy be possible (since I'm already looking...I have nothing to lose). He agreed to speak to our HR department.
Yesterday through our company chat messenger mr senior manager types..."the short answer is voluntary redundancy is not supported. we will catch up on Thursday."
It's been about a month now since being told I'm not wanted and there doesn't seem to be any suitable jobs (I'm left in limbo).
Personally I don't want to stick around working for this company any more and they probably know this (it's only a matter of time until I get a new role - maybe in a month or two I guess) - I've been left in this no mans land situation. They don't want me, barely talk to me, have no jobs for me but at the same time don't want to let me go / pay me to leave (I can't imagine 4 years service will be very costly to them). Instead they are going down the route of trying to put me in a job I just don't want - whatever that may end up being.
A small group I get on with know what has been going on have said they are crazy - things will just stop working once I leave since I'm the only person that developed and support some systems \ apps. They are also looking to leave.
How would you progress from here?
Edited by Anubis on Wednesday 16th May 11:49
Thanks Mr Spock. 
This is what I am also thinking - I'm being backed into a corner through no fault of my own and being told to go away. I've never encountered this in my career before and would have thought such a large professional company like the one I work for would behave like this...
This is what I am also thinking - I'm being backed into a corner through no fault of my own and being told to go away. I've never encountered this in my career before and would have thought such a large professional company like the one I work for would behave like this...
What's the best that could happen? Presumably a redundancy payout, which as you say won't be worth a lot after 4 years (1 week per year I think). Would you want to stay if they found you a better role?
Personally I'd start job hunting and just leave when I found something decent, but stick a the current non-job to pay the bills in the meantime.
Personally I'd start job hunting and just leave when I found something decent, but stick a the current non-job to pay the bills in the meantime.
Had a meeting with Mr senior manager today at 4:30pm. Lasted all of 10 minutes and went like this:
Him: As you know redundancy is not an option. The firm are no longer doing this...thoughts?
Me: er...erm...so I was told about 3-4 weeks ago that I'm no longer needed by you and there doesn't seem to be any suitable roles. I'd suggest we get someone from HR in a meeting with both of us.
Him: There might be another manager in the US who might need you. I can't remember his name or what the job involves but it can't hurt to have a chat can it?
Me: so you don't know what team it's for or what the job requirements are?
Him: no. But it sounds like you could be useful to him after chatting a while back
Me: look, I'm happy to have a chat but to be honest I've been told to stop working as I'm no longer needed. Then I'm told I cannot be offered redundancy. So what am I supposed to do in the meantime?
Him: well...carry on with what you were already working on.
Me: But like I've already explained, it won't be completed - even if I move teams. Even if I did somehow complete the project in the next month or so (very unlikely) there isn't anyone to support it as I'm the only one working on it. You told me to stop working on this when you said I wasn't any part of your future plans.
Him: well, just because your moving teams doesn't mean things stop. You can carry on supporting the project whilst in the new team - if we have to push the dates out a bit so you can get it across the line that's not a major problem. How much longer will it take to complete it? I don't know what exactly it is you were doing.
Me: er...erm...I was developing a new system for one of your teams you have now handed over to stop them using emails and spreadsheets. You declined the meetings prior when I was told to show you the progress. I then asked if I could continue working on it and it would make sense to move over to the new manager with that team but was told no, this was out of the question.
Him: well...I think if you have a chat with this guy in the US he might have something. In the meantime keep working on that app, I'll arrange a meeting with HR and we will go from there.
Him: As you know redundancy is not an option. The firm are no longer doing this...thoughts?
Me: er...erm...so I was told about 3-4 weeks ago that I'm no longer needed by you and there doesn't seem to be any suitable roles. I'd suggest we get someone from HR in a meeting with both of us.
Him: There might be another manager in the US who might need you. I can't remember his name or what the job involves but it can't hurt to have a chat can it?
Me: so you don't know what team it's for or what the job requirements are?
Him: no. But it sounds like you could be useful to him after chatting a while back
Me: look, I'm happy to have a chat but to be honest I've been told to stop working as I'm no longer needed. Then I'm told I cannot be offered redundancy. So what am I supposed to do in the meantime?
Him: well...carry on with what you were already working on.
Me: But like I've already explained, it won't be completed - even if I move teams. Even if I did somehow complete the project in the next month or so (very unlikely) there isn't anyone to support it as I'm the only one working on it. You told me to stop working on this when you said I wasn't any part of your future plans.
Him: well, just because your moving teams doesn't mean things stop. You can carry on supporting the project whilst in the new team - if we have to push the dates out a bit so you can get it across the line that's not a major problem. How much longer will it take to complete it? I don't know what exactly it is you were doing.
Me: er...erm...I was developing a new system for one of your teams you have now handed over to stop them using emails and spreadsheets. You declined the meetings prior when I was told to show you the progress. I then asked if I could continue working on it and it would make sense to move over to the new manager with that team but was told no, this was out of the question.
Him: well...I think if you have a chat with this guy in the US he might have something. In the meantime keep working on that app, I'll arrange a meeting with HR and we will go from there.
Edited by Anubis on Thursday 17th May 18:33
So it's been over a month now since being told I'm not wanted - I've been stuck here looking for jobs instead of doing my actual job because I was told to stop doing it.
I'm in this hostage situation. Reached out to HR who have said they will arrange a meeting next week with myself and mr senior manager and that "to confirm though we are not supporting voluntary redundancy".
So...no actual job to do, no other job to go to and they are refusing to pay me to leave.
Time to leave and start a constructive dismissal case?
I'm in this hostage situation. Reached out to HR who have said they will arrange a meeting next week with myself and mr senior manager and that "to confirm though we are not supporting voluntary redundancy".
So...no actual job to do, no other job to go to and they are refusing to pay me to leave.
Time to leave and start a constructive dismissal case?
Needs to be pretty serious to be constructive dismissal. Sounds like they're just lazy and incompetent.
gov website said:
The reasons you leave your job must be serious, for example, they:
- don’t pay you or suddenly demote you for no reason
- force you to accept unreasonable changes to how you work - eg tell you to work night shifts when your contract is only for day work
- let other employees harass or bully you
.
.
If you do have a case for constructive dismissal, you should leave your job immediately - your employer may argue that, by staying, you accepted the conduct or treatment.
https://www.gov.uk/dismissal/unfair-and-constructi...- don’t pay you or suddenly demote you for no reason
- force you to accept unreasonable changes to how you work - eg tell you to work night shifts when your contract is only for day work
- let other employees harass or bully you
.
.
If you do have a case for constructive dismissal, you should leave your job immediately - your employer may argue that, by staying, you accepted the conduct or treatment.
This CC by any chance?
Anyway I would already be talking with a solicitor and forwarding all relevant stuff to my home email (screenshots of chats etc) so that you don't become a victim of "Oh i deleted that email/that email didnt exist" type stuff.
I would also have been furiously job hunting and outta there at the first chance I got!
Anyway I would already be talking with a solicitor and forwarding all relevant stuff to my home email (screenshots of chats etc) so that you don't become a victim of "Oh i deleted that email/that email didnt exist" type stuff.
I would also have been furiously job hunting and outta there at the first chance I got!
Anubis said:
Time to leave and start a constructive dismissal case?
Sit tight and wait for a Settlement Offer to go away.http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=4395
4x4Tyke said:
Anubis said:
Time to leave and start a constructive dismissal case?
Sit tight and wait for a Settlement Offer to go away.http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=4395
Just because you have no work tasks to do does not mean the role is redundant.
Quite honestly if you don't like the work or lack of it then look for a new job and then resign when the time is right.
Sounds horrendous,
1. Go on stress related sick leave. Have some fun until they work out what to do.
2. Sit with the HR team explain that it can’t be voluntary redundancy as the senior manager has “ told you explicitly that your particular type of work is no longer required by the company “ this is the very legal definition of redundancy.
3. I would also let HR know all about your previous manager...
1. Go on stress related sick leave. Have some fun until they work out what to do.
2. Sit with the HR team explain that it can’t be voluntary redundancy as the senior manager has “ told you explicitly that your particular type of work is no longer required by the company “ this is the very legal definition of redundancy.
3. I would also let HR know all about your previous manager...
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