Market for older bikes/cars disappearing?
Discussion
Good morning everyone; this topic has come out of a conversation I had over the weekend with one of my cousins. He owns 14 or so vintage bikes. They range from the 30's to late 50's.
He's very proud of them, enjoys riding them, has had some of them for a very long time, has a workshop with a lathe and other tooling to make parts for them/look after them. They're kept inside and cossetted etc etc. He's not just invested money in the bikes but all the things you need to look after them properly.
So it was a bit of surprise when he said he'd decided to sell them all. Why? Because he feels that the people that covet and want to buy and own these bikes are growing too old to ride them. He's concerned that the market he's in, the demand is literally dying.
Got me thinking - does anyone else think that?
My immediate thought was, 'he's wrong, there's fantastic demand for these bikes' and yet, having mulled it over, I'm wondering - is he right? So I thought I'd ask PH what they think? Interested to hear everyone's thoughts.
He's very proud of them, enjoys riding them, has had some of them for a very long time, has a workshop with a lathe and other tooling to make parts for them/look after them. They're kept inside and cossetted etc etc. He's not just invested money in the bikes but all the things you need to look after them properly.
So it was a bit of surprise when he said he'd decided to sell them all. Why? Because he feels that the people that covet and want to buy and own these bikes are growing too old to ride them. He's concerned that the market he's in, the demand is literally dying.
Got me thinking - does anyone else think that?
My immediate thought was, 'he's wrong, there's fantastic demand for these bikes' and yet, having mulled it over, I'm wondering - is he right? So I thought I'd ask PH what they think? Interested to hear everyone's thoughts.
I think it's partly a natural generational difference in interest (people like things they remember from their youth or the usual "dad had one of those" factor). Partly an interest needs to be backed up by the money and space/facilities to indulge in it.
I'm in my mid thirties, and the range of my vehicular interest pretty much goes back a century.
I'm in my mid thirties, and the range of my vehicular interest pretty much goes back a century.
Having enjoyed a range of vintage pre 1930’s cars over the past fifteen or twenty years I have to say that the interest in the vehicles is certainly dropping off. Discounting the vehicles from the very top end that is.
Each year less vintage cars appear at the steam rallies and shows, now it’s just a small handful of the faithful. The interest appears to be from the 1950s to 1980’s classic car.
Motorcycles appears to be same pattern in my experience.
Each year less vintage cars appear at the steam rallies and shows, now it’s just a small handful of the faithful. The interest appears to be from the 1950s to 1980’s classic car.
Motorcycles appears to be same pattern in my experience.
I agree, the popularity of "proper" vintage bikes and cars seems to be waning. The generation before me seem to be the ones who own and look after them, I was born in 1970 and as such my taste tends to be towards cars and bikes of the mid 60's through to the early 80's.
Saying that, I have a real soft spot for vintage bikes and prefer them to vintage cars. I've always coveted a pre war Indian Scout.
Has he considered instead of selling them, perhaps hiring them out to TV companies and suchlike for period dramas?.
Saying that, I have a real soft spot for vintage bikes and prefer them to vintage cars. I've always coveted a pre war Indian Scout.
Has he considered instead of selling them, perhaps hiring them out to TV companies and suchlike for period dramas?.
Exactly. I'm 32, not exactly a baby.
I have never had a bike, but I have always fancied a bike licence and an old bike as a fixer upper, Sunday project.
Guess what, to me, the 'old' bikes I'm interested in a 70s and 80's Japanese things.
I bet your mate still see's these as modern, but they are older than me. There will always be a demand for old stuff, its just the definition of old changes. Look at the prices of cars from the 90's (driven by people like me who can now buy the cars of their dreams from their childhood).
Times change, it has always been this way and always will.
I have never had a bike, but I have always fancied a bike licence and an old bike as a fixer upper, Sunday project.
Guess what, to me, the 'old' bikes I'm interested in a 70s and 80's Japanese things.
I bet your mate still see's these as modern, but they are older than me. There will always be a demand for old stuff, its just the definition of old changes. Look at the prices of cars from the 90's (driven by people like me who can now buy the cars of their dreams from their childhood).
Times change, it has always been this way and always will.
snotrag said:
Exactly. I'm 32, not exactly a baby.
I have never had a bike, but I have always fancied a bike licence and an old bike as a fixer upper, Sunday project.
Guess what, to me, the 'old' bikes I'm interested in a 70s and 80's Japanese things.
I bet your mate still see's these as modern, but they are older than me. There will always be a demand for old stuff, its just the definition of old changes. Look at the prices of cars from the 90's (driven by people like me who can now buy the cars of their dreams from their childhood).
Times change, it has always been this way and always will.
Get in now, prices of that stuff is rocketing.I have never had a bike, but I have always fancied a bike licence and an old bike as a fixer upper, Sunday project.
Guess what, to me, the 'old' bikes I'm interested in a 70s and 80's Japanese things.
I bet your mate still see's these as modern, but they are older than me. There will always be a demand for old stuff, its just the definition of old changes. Look at the prices of cars from the 90's (driven by people like me who can now buy the cars of their dreams from their childhood).
Times change, it has always been this way and always will.
If interest is waning you'd expect prices too as well, and they're not. The '50s/'60s BSAs/Nortons etc. are still saleable at strong money and continue to rise. I was born in '71 and bought a 1959 AJS 3 years ago so people do buy outside of theIr "memory range". I'm lucky in that I have always played with classic cars, so after having fast bikes for while a classic was obvious.
I think shows generally are declining for older vehicles as we've all "been there, done that" so it's being taken over by the '80s/'90s cars as they're newly classic and the owners haven't "been there, done that".
Events like the Banbury Run, Pioneer Run, IWKR, etc. continue to be fully, if not over, subscribed and most of the people who own those flat tankers can't possibly have remembered them when they were young (i.e. if you are able to remember 1914 bikes from your youth you're unlikely to still be able to do the Pioneer Run).
If he wants to sell them all off cheap before the market crashes then I'm sure there'll be a queue of buyers......
I think shows generally are declining for older vehicles as we've all "been there, done that" so it's being taken over by the '80s/'90s cars as they're newly classic and the owners haven't "been there, done that".
Events like the Banbury Run, Pioneer Run, IWKR, etc. continue to be fully, if not over, subscribed and most of the people who own those flat tankers can't possibly have remembered them when they were young (i.e. if you are able to remember 1914 bikes from your youth you're unlikely to still be able to do the Pioneer Run).
If he wants to sell them all off cheap before the market crashes then I'm sure there'll be a queue of buyers......
Edited by stang65 on Tuesday 22 May 13:47
Oi_Oi_Savaloy said:
Good morning everyone; this topic has come out of a conversation I had over the weekend with one of my cousins. He owns 14 or so vintage bikes. They range from the 30's to late 50's.
He's very proud of them, enjoys riding them, has had some of them for a very long time, has a workshop with a lathe and other tooling to make parts for them/look after them. They're kept inside and cossetted etc etc. He's not just invested money in the bikes but all the things you need to look after them properly.
So it was a bit of surprise when he said he'd decided to sell them all. Why? Because he feels that the people that covet and want to buy and own these bikes are growing too old to ride them. He's concerned that the market he's in, the demand is literally dying.
Got me thinking - does anyone else think that?
No.He's very proud of them, enjoys riding them, has had some of them for a very long time, has a workshop with a lathe and other tooling to make parts for them/look after them. They're kept inside and cossetted etc etc. He's not just invested money in the bikes but all the things you need to look after them properly.
So it was a bit of surprise when he said he'd decided to sell them all. Why? Because he feels that the people that covet and want to buy and own these bikes are growing too old to ride them. He's concerned that the market he's in, the demand is literally dying.
Got me thinking - does anyone else think that?
Largely, because they are now being bought by 'investors' with no real interest in riding them......that's why the values have shot up over the years.
10+ years ago, a LOT of 50's era Brit bikes were being bought up and exported to Japan, as they love the Brit Café Racer culture of the 50/60's UK, and now they are just being bought for investment.
I saw a young guy (30's/40's) wearing pudding basin etc and 'vintage' style riding gear this morning at rush rush our riding a 50's bathtub Speed Twin - lovely sight and sound as he rode across me while waiting at a set of lights.
I can understand selling some of them while the market is still 'high' and keeping just his favourites to ride, but, IMHO, his reason for selling all of them is wide of the mark. I know lots of people that ride 40's/50's/60's era bikes that are in their 20's to 50's, and certainly not too old to ride them.
I was born in 72 so like someone above has commented - my interest lies in 70's and 80's cars (like bikes but decided not to get a licence, just prefer cars if I'm honest)
I want and think about e30 bmw's etc etc (used to have one, now don't).
I get the impression that alot of the 30's-50's stuff are almost becoming museum pieces. Interest waning from the majority - alot of us would love a bike of that vintage or a chain-driven car but we're members of a car and bike forum so that's no surprise, are interested, like to work on them, don't get down-hearted when they wont-bloody-start.....but the average man in the street? No thanks.
Since I wrote this post yesterday I've spent a bit more time thinking about this.
In my opinion, the tide is definitely turning (even for the top-end as Aeropilot says) for that age of bike - imo my cousin is right to sell now, if he's intent on selling. He's been looking at the prices and he's a bit stunned tbh. He didn't pay anything like the prices he's seeing at the moment (he didn't buy them as an investment, but always hoped he wouldn't lose money on them)
He didn't buy them for the investment return (and the amount of effort he's put into bringing some of them back - if you tally up his hours, never mind the parts, then actually, he needs the pricing the bikes are at to either break even or just get ahead of his total costs). Which is still nice as every car I've sold has made a huge loss and cost me the earth in between.....!
I want and think about e30 bmw's etc etc (used to have one, now don't).
I get the impression that alot of the 30's-50's stuff are almost becoming museum pieces. Interest waning from the majority - alot of us would love a bike of that vintage or a chain-driven car but we're members of a car and bike forum so that's no surprise, are interested, like to work on them, don't get down-hearted when they wont-bloody-start.....but the average man in the street? No thanks.
Since I wrote this post yesterday I've spent a bit more time thinking about this.
In my opinion, the tide is definitely turning (even for the top-end as Aeropilot says) for that age of bike - imo my cousin is right to sell now, if he's intent on selling. He's been looking at the prices and he's a bit stunned tbh. He didn't pay anything like the prices he's seeing at the moment (he didn't buy them as an investment, but always hoped he wouldn't lose money on them)
He didn't buy them for the investment return (and the amount of effort he's put into bringing some of them back - if you tally up his hours, never mind the parts, then actually, he needs the pricing the bikes are at to either break even or just get ahead of his total costs). Which is still nice as every car I've sold has made a huge loss and cost me the earth in between.....!
Like anything else, certain things are classics in their own right, the bike equivalent of an E-Type or Pagoda Merc if you like. They are always going to be strong, because they are cool NOW, as well as then. Think of BSA Rocket 3, Norton Commando etc. Also, some bikes are super cool now, like BSA Hornets and Triumph Competition models, giving the 'Steve McQueen' image. Sure, the commuter and grey porridge stuff is hard to price, but selling classic bikes is an art. I bought a mint 1955 Triumph 6T from a bloke who wanted 12K for it. After many goes on eBay, the price dropped , and I got it for 7.5K. I advertised it for 8.5K some time later, and never got a sniff. The first re-list, it sold on a Buy It Now for 8.5K immediately without quibble to a dealer. He sold it for 12K !!!
Like classic cars, it's a strange market, full of a lot of crap, some average, and some top drawer mint stuff. Hard to value, and like classic cars, if you have to restore it, and want to do it properly, you WILL spend more than it's worth.
Like classic cars, it's a strange market, full of a lot of crap, some average, and some top drawer mint stuff. Hard to value, and like classic cars, if you have to restore it, and want to do it properly, you WILL spend more than it's worth.
Oi_Oi_Savaloy said:
In my opinion, the tide is definitely turning (even for the top-end as Aeropilot says) for that age of bike - imo my cousin is right to sell now, if he's intent on selling. He's been looking at the prices and he's a bit stunned tbh. He didn't pay anything like the prices he's seeing at the moment (he didn't buy them as an investment, but always hoped he wouldn't lose money on them)
He didn't buy them for the investment return (and the amount of effort he's put into bringing some of them back - if you tally up his hours, never mind the parts, then actually, he needs the pricing the bikes are at to either break even or just get ahead of his total costs). Which is still nice as every car I've sold has made a huge loss and cost me the earth in between.....!
If he sells now for the prices he's stunned by then make sure he doesn't look at prices in a couple of years. He'll have seen his can in the bank increase by a tiny amount whilst his bikes will have at least kept pace with inflation. It's more likely that they'll have far outstripped inflation of course (based on the fact they must be fairly desirable models if he's stunned at prices). Unless he's got enough to sell to buy property where is he planning to get a better low-risk financial return?He didn't buy them for the investment return (and the amount of effort he's put into bringing some of them back - if you tally up his hours, never mind the parts, then actually, he needs the pricing the bikes are at to either break even or just get ahead of his total costs). Which is still nice as every car I've sold has made a huge loss and cost me the earth in between.....!
I'm not sure he's too bothered Strang. He was never in it for the total investment; he just enjoyed having them etc etc. It was all about the riding/using and restoring element. He's just happy to (hopefully) coming out ahead/level. He might make a substantial profit on one or two of them but he's pretty sanguine all in all.
He just feels that now is right for him to start selling them. Whether he's right remains to be seen.
He just feels that now is right for him to start selling them. Whether he's right remains to be seen.
aeropilot said:
Oi_Oi_Savaloy said:
Good morning everyone; this topic has come out of a conversation I had over the weekend with one of my cousins. He owns 14 or so vintage bikes. They range from the 30's to late 50's.
He's very proud of them, enjoys riding them, has had some of them for a very long time, has a workshop with a lathe and other tooling to make parts for them/look after them. They're kept inside and cossetted etc etc. He's not just invested money in the bikes but all the things you need to look after them properly.
So it was a bit of surprise when he said he'd decided to sell them all. Why? Because he feels that the people that covet and want to buy and own these bikes are growing too old to ride them. He's concerned that the market he's in, the demand is literally dying.
Got me thinking - does anyone else think that?
No.He's very proud of them, enjoys riding them, has had some of them for a very long time, has a workshop with a lathe and other tooling to make parts for them/look after them. They're kept inside and cossetted etc etc. He's not just invested money in the bikes but all the things you need to look after them properly.
So it was a bit of surprise when he said he'd decided to sell them all. Why? Because he feels that the people that covet and want to buy and own these bikes are growing too old to ride them. He's concerned that the market he's in, the demand is literally dying.
Got me thinking - does anyone else think that?
Largely, because they are now being bought by 'investors' with no real interest in riding them......that's why the values have shot up over the years.
10+ years ago, a LOT of 50's era Brit bikes were being bought up and exported to Japan, as they love the Brit Café Racer culture of the 50/60's UK, and now they are just being bought for investment.
I saw a young guy (30's/40's) wearing pudding basin etc and 'vintage' style riding gear this morning at rush rush our riding a 50's bathtub Speed Twin - lovely sight and sound as he rode across me while waiting at a set of lights.
I can understand selling some of them while the market is still 'high' and keeping just his favourites to ride, but, IMHO, his reason for selling all of them is wide of the mark. I know lots of people that ride 40's/50's/60's era bikes that are in their 20's to 50's, and certainly not too old to ride them.
Its a bit like the d
heads who ride to work on a push bike dressed for the Tour de France. OOO look at me...Mercky said:
Whilst I can understand the desire to have a thrash on a bit of vintage machinery like an old Triumph, and I love the look of them and appreciate the quality and the superb examples that they are of the days when Britain knew how to make things properly - I cannot understand why people have to dress up in period costume to ride the bloody things!
What, a leather jacket and a period-style helmet?You'd look more of a berk in a full race suit and neon helmet, surely?
Mercky said:
aeropilot said:
Oi_Oi_Savaloy said:
Good morning everyone; this topic has come out of a conversation I had over the weekend with one of my cousins. He owns 14 or so vintage bikes. They range from the 30's to late 50's.
He's very proud of them, enjoys riding them, has had some of them for a very long time, has a workshop with a lathe and other tooling to make parts for them/look after them. They're kept inside and cossetted etc etc. He's not just invested money in the bikes but all the things you need to look after them properly.
So it was a bit of surprise when he said he'd decided to sell them all. Why? Because he feels that the people that covet and want to buy and own these bikes are growing too old to ride them. He's concerned that the market he's in, the demand is literally dying.
Got me thinking - does anyone else think that?
No.He's very proud of them, enjoys riding them, has had some of them for a very long time, has a workshop with a lathe and other tooling to make parts for them/look after them. They're kept inside and cossetted etc etc. He's not just invested money in the bikes but all the things you need to look after them properly.
So it was a bit of surprise when he said he'd decided to sell them all. Why? Because he feels that the people that covet and want to buy and own these bikes are growing too old to ride them. He's concerned that the market he's in, the demand is literally dying.
Got me thinking - does anyone else think that?
Largely, because they are now being bought by 'investors' with no real interest in riding them......that's why the values have shot up over the years.
10+ years ago, a LOT of 50's era Brit bikes were being bought up and exported to Japan, as they love the Brit Café Racer culture of the 50/60's UK, and now they are just being bought for investment.
I saw a young guy (30's/40's) wearing pudding basin etc and 'vintage' style riding gear this morning at rush rush our riding a 50's bathtub Speed Twin - lovely sight and sound as he rode across me while waiting at a set of lights.
I can understand selling some of them while the market is still 'high' and keeping just his favourites to ride, but, IMHO, his reason for selling all of them is wide of the mark. I know lots of people that ride 40's/50's/60's era bikes that are in their 20's to 50's, and certainly not too old to ride them.
Same as wearing a full face, when your body in just not in the same riding position as the designers have designed it for.
Plus , other than that practicality, you look a right knob wearing modern kit
If anyone remembers the Top Gear episode when Hammond and May raced Jezza in the new Tornado steam train to Scotland.
Hammond was riding a Vincent in modern gear, he wouldn't have the cramping issues if he'd not been forced by BBC H&S to be in full Moto GP riding gear simply not designed for the riding position of a Vincent.
Been through this 'arguement' with a few new to vintage/classic bike ownership/riding back when I had my 1940's BSA and they eventually come around to wearing gear compatible with the era, and once tried, understood the for rather than against.
I'm an OAP with two old cars, one nearly 60 years old and the other a replica of a car that is 61 yrs old yet younger people adore both. But that aside, when I was at the Barratt Jackson auction 10 years ago they were saying exactly the same thing about 1950s cars such as the Chevrolet Bel Air and Model T Fords. They are now more popular than ever. it is the charm of these cars that appeals; they aren't modern euroboxes, and put a smile on your face, and in this world fun is becoming harder to find.
Edited by lowdrag on Thursday 24th May 08:45
I was born in 62, my first foray into the classic world was a late 50s car, the XK150 had all round disk brakes and a single piece windscreen so I thought it would be sufficiently modern, certainly the brakes should be well up to modern traffic conditions. In fact I was amazed at just how good they were. I don't remember seeing XKs when I was really young and only became aware of them as a teenager. A good friend was into custom cars and we went to a few car shows an I remember seeing an OEW XK at Ally Pally and being smitten.
But now I find that I'm really drawn to something less modern. Part of me wants an unmodified (or at least un-modernised) earlier XK. but another part of me keeps getting drawn to pre-war cars.
Why have a classic?
Well for me it's for the different driving experience. I've driven E-Types and find them too close to modern, but then I found that the XK with radial tyres are less interesting to drive than it was on cross plies. So I hanker for a more basic experience where more thought and input is required.
So I'm not, quite, an OAP and I find my interest turning in the direction of "older" cars. But then I find it difficult to think of cars from the 70s onwards as "classic cars" no matter how desirable they may be.
But now I find that I'm really drawn to something less modern. Part of me wants an unmodified (or at least un-modernised) earlier XK. but another part of me keeps getting drawn to pre-war cars.
Why have a classic?
Well for me it's for the different driving experience. I've driven E-Types and find them too close to modern, but then I found that the XK with radial tyres are less interesting to drive than it was on cross plies. So I hanker for a more basic experience where more thought and input is required.
So I'm not, quite, an OAP and I find my interest turning in the direction of "older" cars. But then I find it difficult to think of cars from the 70s onwards as "classic cars" no matter how desirable they may be.
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