Discussion
Well, I drove 250 miles to get the manifold on Saturday, all in preparation for the big start up on Sunday, but it didn't happen....
Spent a couple of hours during the afternoon putting all the exhaust sections back together - what a mare of a job! Eventually got everything on and sort of straight, but the centre section leaves about 4.5 inches ground clearance - won't be frequenting Tesco's car park then!
So, all the wiring was on, and previously on Friday night we had got the engine to turn on the starter, so we figured we just needed to do more of the same and put the end of the fuel pipe in a fuel container and just wait for it to be drawn forward. Turned the key, and the engine did turn, just very very slowly. More charge, we thought, so tried bringing the Astra in and jump starting it, and it promptly melted the jump leads! Went and bought a heavy duty set, and this time tried Chris's BMW - larger battery = more power, so we thought. It did help a little, but still the engine turns about 8-10 times, then just loses power. Leave it for 10 minutes, and it gains enough power to do the same. It took 2 painful hours of this to get the fuel to reach the fuel pump.
After trying to turn it, the starter was getting hot, but not excessively so, so we think it must just be because the engine has been rebuilt, tolerances are tight, and friction doesn't allow the engine to turn freely enough. Another two hours, by which time it's fairly late, and the neighbours and little one need to be considered noise wise, and we're starting to make a little progress in that we had four positive fires. Obviously fuel was getting through, and it sparked four times, enough to hurry the engine along a little, but that was it.
So, the question is, is this the right way to go about this? Does all this sound normal so far? Is there a way to get the engine to turn faster? I just want to get it running now!!
Any help/suggestions very welcome!!
Tony
www.tvr-3000m.co.uk
Spent a couple of hours during the afternoon putting all the exhaust sections back together - what a mare of a job! Eventually got everything on and sort of straight, but the centre section leaves about 4.5 inches ground clearance - won't be frequenting Tesco's car park then!
So, all the wiring was on, and previously on Friday night we had got the engine to turn on the starter, so we figured we just needed to do more of the same and put the end of the fuel pipe in a fuel container and just wait for it to be drawn forward. Turned the key, and the engine did turn, just very very slowly. More charge, we thought, so tried bringing the Astra in and jump starting it, and it promptly melted the jump leads! Went and bought a heavy duty set, and this time tried Chris's BMW - larger battery = more power, so we thought. It did help a little, but still the engine turns about 8-10 times, then just loses power. Leave it for 10 minutes, and it gains enough power to do the same. It took 2 painful hours of this to get the fuel to reach the fuel pump.
After trying to turn it, the starter was getting hot, but not excessively so, so we think it must just be because the engine has been rebuilt, tolerances are tight, and friction doesn't allow the engine to turn freely enough. Another two hours, by which time it's fairly late, and the neighbours and little one need to be considered noise wise, and we're starting to make a little progress in that we had four positive fires. Obviously fuel was getting through, and it sparked four times, enough to hurry the engine along a little, but that was it.
So, the question is, is this the right way to go about this? Does all this sound normal so far? Is there a way to get the engine to turn faster? I just want to get it running now!!
Any help/suggestions very welcome!!
Tony
www.tvr-3000m.co.uk
I hestitate to ask, as I don't wish to appear flippant, but does this newly rebuilt engine have oil in it (or the correct amount anyway....).
When I had my V8 rebuilt a few years ago, it didn't come with any oil in it.
Also I used an old distributor shaft spun with a drill to pre-lube the engine before I started it.
I suppose the other thing to do is remove the plugs and see if it turns easliy enough by hand, and then investigate from there.
When I had my V8 rebuilt a few years ago, it didn't come with any oil in it.
Also I used an old distributor shaft spun with a drill to pre-lube the engine before I started it.
I suppose the other thing to do is remove the plugs and see if it turns easliy enough by hand, and then investigate from there.
quote:
I hestitate to ask, as I don't wish to appear flippant, but does this newly rebuilt engine have oil in it (or the correct amount anyway....).
When I had my V8 rebuilt a few years ago, it didn't come with any oil in it.
Also I used an old distributor shaft spun with a drill to pre-lube the engine before I started it.
I suppose the other thing to do is remove the plugs and see if it turns easliy enough by hand, and then investigate from there.
Yep, although it was dry when we picked it up, we've put in 5 litres of running-in oil which is what the haynes says it takes. Could try the idea of spinning it up to prelube it all, although the oil is getting thrown about a bit, as seen on the dipstick after trying to turn it over.
It will turn by hand - 20 minutes under the car, with big socket on the crank (God have I got arm muscles today!!) It's weird, it turns freely for a quarter of a turn or thereabouts, then stiffens up a little, and follows the same pattern all the way around. Just feels like friction though, but not sure if this is expected or not. Any ideas?
Tony
quote:
Not sure if this will help, but I seem to recall a similar problem caused by a faulty engine earth lead. It might be worth checking that this is connected properly. Hope that helps.
Matt
Vixen S3
Ahh, engine earth lead - is this different from the normal battery earth lead then? We've got the positive from the battery going to the starter motor, and the negative going to a point on the NSF of the chassis, but nothing on the engine itself as such. Should we have???
Tony
If you want to spin it over to generate some oil pressure take out the spark plugs (and disconnect the king leads so you don't get any spare sparks.....) that should spin very easily as it will have no compression. If that turns happily then you don't have a major friction problem. If it's still stiff you'll need to dig deeper.
Once you're happy that friction isn't a problem it's just (!) a case of getting the right combination of fuel and spark at the right time. Double check the timing is correct, and make sure you're getting fuel through. Physics says that if you have all these at the right quantities and time it will fire.
Good luck.
Once you're happy that friction isn't a problem it's just (!) a case of getting the right combination of fuel and spark at the right time. Double check the timing is correct, and make sure you're getting fuel through. Physics says that if you have all these at the right quantities and time it will fire.
Good luck.
Yes, you should have a lead (braided type) running from say a bellhousing fixing nut to the chassis. Otherwise the engine will try and earth through any other metal to metal contact like engine mounts, throttle/clutch cables etc. If the cables feel warm or hot! this would be an indication that this happening.
Good luck!
Good luck!
Couple of things , remove the spark plugs and spin the motor on the starter to get some oil about, Tip some fuel down the carb , not too much as you will flood it, the starter can't turn the engine over fast enough to suck fuel through properly (i would suggest taking the top off the carb and filling the float chamber)i know you did get fuel through but this is'nt good for your starter motor.Even try some easy start sprayed onto the air filter to help get it to catch.
Well, I got a new earth strap yesterday, so we decided to have an impromptu session on the car last night, to see if we could actually get the thing to fire at all. The engine obviously turned over much better with the full circuit in place, but we still needed to use the BMW as a booster.
The thing is, after another two hours of turning, fuel was going to the carb, and coming back down the return line, but no firing. We checked the spark at the coil, which was fine, we checked the ignition leads against the block, which were fine and regular, and we checked the spark plugs and gaps which were also fine.
But no firing.
A neighbour of mine has a Mk1 Escort, so came down out of interest to see how things are going, and suggested we loosen the distributor and move it around while turning the engine in case the ignition timing isn't spot on, so we tried that, but still nothing. In any case, John Wade who supplied the cam advised us to go with 14 degree timing, which we have set up previously. The best we got was similar to Sundays efforts, it fired just once, on one cylinder, and that was it.
Now, my suspicion is that the engine was flooded through so much turning (very strong smell of fuel), so on Wednesday night, we're going to take each of the plugs out and clean them, and see if that makes any difference, but does anyone have any suggestions on how to make this process a little easier, or to avoid the flooding issue?
On a good note, oil pressure was building well while turning - at least something is going right!!
Aaarrgggghhh frustration!!
Thanks all,
Tony
www.tvr-3000m.co.uk
The thing is, after another two hours of turning, fuel was going to the carb, and coming back down the return line, but no firing. We checked the spark at the coil, which was fine, we checked the ignition leads against the block, which were fine and regular, and we checked the spark plugs and gaps which were also fine.
But no firing.
A neighbour of mine has a Mk1 Escort, so came down out of interest to see how things are going, and suggested we loosen the distributor and move it around while turning the engine in case the ignition timing isn't spot on, so we tried that, but still nothing. In any case, John Wade who supplied the cam advised us to go with 14 degree timing, which we have set up previously. The best we got was similar to Sundays efforts, it fired just once, on one cylinder, and that was it.
Now, my suspicion is that the engine was flooded through so much turning (very strong smell of fuel), so on Wednesday night, we're going to take each of the plugs out and clean them, and see if that makes any difference, but does anyone have any suggestions on how to make this process a little easier, or to avoid the flooding issue?
On a good note, oil pressure was building well while turning - at least something is going right!!
Aaarrgggghhh frustration!!
Thanks all,
Tony
www.tvr-3000m.co.uk
quote:
You might have the timing 180º out.
Russell
Cheers Russell, what's the best way to:
1- Check this
2- Right it - I'm assuming turn the Distributor around 180? Could it be as simple as just turning the rotor arm around? Come to think of it, I think it only goes on one way anyway....
Tony
Glad the earth lead has helped. Is the fuel fresh?? Stale fuel was the cause of my old 280 FHC not starting.
How many carbs have you got? Is it just the standard single one or a multiple set up? Worth checking that the mixture and float level(s)are ok. I would also echo the comments about the distributor (also check if the HT leads are in the right order)
When I first ran my Vixen after its rebuild (Twin webbers) it ran very badly due to duff carb setup and the timing being way out. Managed to set fire to one of the airfilters as well. Can laugh about it now though!!
If all else fails call out one of these Hometune guys. I had one out to balance the carbs and he only charged £40 for 2.5 hrs work. I think he enjoyed the challenge!
Good Luck
Matt
How many carbs have you got? Is it just the standard single one or a multiple set up? Worth checking that the mixture and float level(s)are ok. I would also echo the comments about the distributor (also check if the HT leads are in the right order)
When I first ran my Vixen after its rebuild (Twin webbers) it ran very badly due to duff carb setup and the timing being way out. Managed to set fire to one of the airfilters as well. Can laugh about it now though!!
If all else fails call out one of these Hometune guys. I had one out to balance the carbs and he only charged £40 for 2.5 hrs work. I think he enjoyed the challenge!
Good Luck
Matt
Any luck yet?
You can get the distributor in about the right place by ensuring that #1 cylinder is on TDC on the compression stroke. Use the timing mark to find TDC, and check that both rocker arms for #1 cylinder are free to move (as in your other post). This way (with both valves closed and the timing mark lined up) #1 should be ready to fire.
Now just make sure the rotor arm is pointing to the #1 plug lead (some moving of the dizzy may be required).
This should enable the engine to fire and run, although the timing will need to be set with a strobe.
Hope you got it going!
You can get the distributor in about the right place by ensuring that #1 cylinder is on TDC on the compression stroke. Use the timing mark to find TDC, and check that both rocker arms for #1 cylinder are free to move (as in your other post). This way (with both valves closed and the timing mark lined up) #1 should be ready to fire.
Now just make sure the rotor arm is pointing to the #1 plug lead (some moving of the dizzy may be required).
This should enable the engine to fire and run, although the timing will need to be set with a strobe.
Hope you got it going!
Going to give it another go tonight, didn't get a chance last night, you'll all be the first to know tomorrow morning if it goes or not!!
Been thinking about what the problems could be, and on the flooding theme, the carb could set up be wrong, ie throwing too much fuel in. I've seen a set up guide for the 38DGAS at www.redlineweber.com/html/Tech/38_dgas_tunning.htm, which i'll go through - any opinions on doing this before trying to start it up again?
As for the ignition timing, this has been going over and over in my mind, and i'm 99% sure the distributor was put back in correctly, with the rotor arm pointing at the lead connection for the number one cylinder, while the timing mark was exactly on 14 degrees, as per the haynes and John Wade. The vaccuum advance is as it looks in the haynes too, so I don't think it would be 180 out. I'll confirm this tonight by taking the rocker cover off and making sure the rockers are loose (TDC). As for timing with a stobe, what does this process entail? Done bits before, but not to that level!
If too much fuel is getting through making the plugs damp and not allowing them to spark correctly, what about something like damp start, or is that only going to solve a water issue, not over fueling?
Something else, may have been our imagination as it was late and dark, but when we were turning the engine over on monday night, there seemed to be a fine smoke/mist appearing on both sides of the engine around the heads. The manifolds are all tight, so we'll need to try and identify the cause of this too. Everything should be torqued up....
BTW fuel is fresh - bought on sunday, so unlikely to be that. We'd like to be able to do it ourselves, without the need for Mr Hometune, just have to see how we go.
Determination is equal with frustration still, just need to make sure the latter doesn't get the better of the former!!
Thanks all, opinions and comments very welcome!!
Tony (and Chris, who reads with interest)
www.tvr-3000m.co.uk
Been thinking about what the problems could be, and on the flooding theme, the carb could set up be wrong, ie throwing too much fuel in. I've seen a set up guide for the 38DGAS at www.redlineweber.com/html/Tech/38_dgas_tunning.htm, which i'll go through - any opinions on doing this before trying to start it up again?
As for the ignition timing, this has been going over and over in my mind, and i'm 99% sure the distributor was put back in correctly, with the rotor arm pointing at the lead connection for the number one cylinder, while the timing mark was exactly on 14 degrees, as per the haynes and John Wade. The vaccuum advance is as it looks in the haynes too, so I don't think it would be 180 out. I'll confirm this tonight by taking the rocker cover off and making sure the rockers are loose (TDC). As for timing with a stobe, what does this process entail? Done bits before, but not to that level!
If too much fuel is getting through making the plugs damp and not allowing them to spark correctly, what about something like damp start, or is that only going to solve a water issue, not over fueling?
Something else, may have been our imagination as it was late and dark, but when we were turning the engine over on monday night, there seemed to be a fine smoke/mist appearing on both sides of the engine around the heads. The manifolds are all tight, so we'll need to try and identify the cause of this too. Everything should be torqued up....
BTW fuel is fresh - bought on sunday, so unlikely to be that. We'd like to be able to do it ourselves, without the need for Mr Hometune, just have to see how we go.
Determination is equal with frustration still, just need to make sure the latter doesn't get the better of the former!!
Thanks all, opinions and comments very welcome!!
Tony (and Chris, who reads with interest)
www.tvr-3000m.co.uk
I've experienced the 180º error twice once when helping a friend change his distributor and the other when I went to pick up my car from a garage after the cylinder heads were changed to unleaded and the mechanic couldn't get it started.
Assumin this is the problem there are two ways to fix it.
1) Take the distributor out at TDC turn the engine round 360º to TDC again then put the distributor back in. I think the Essex engine has a hexagonal cam for the distributor shaft so this method should work.
2) Move all the leads round 3 on the cap. This is fine as long as the leads still reach.
Russell
Assumin this is the problem there are two ways to fix it.
1) Take the distributor out at TDC turn the engine round 360º to TDC again then put the distributor back in. I think the Essex engine has a hexagonal cam for the distributor shaft so this method should work.
2) Move all the leads round 3 on the cap. This is fine as long as the leads still reach.
Russell
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