Griff Brake Upgrade recommendations

[pum]

Hi. Sorry if this has been discussed before, but the search function is broken, and I scanned through a lot of pages without success, so I'm asking here ...

Can you worthy and experienced souls recommend brake upgrade options and costs to me for my 1994 Griff 500 please? I basically want to get rid of the fade I get on "enthusiastic" track days (from pad glaze and fluid boiling), a bit improved braking performance, and still comfortably useable on the road. I've got fade resistant pads and DOT 5.1 fluid already, and that helps alot, but would like to go a bit further. I want to stay with the standard wheels (15" front).

I'm unsure whether to go for larger disks, such as a Tarox solution (and whether they'd even fit in the 15" rims), or would a same size solution like the Black Diamond disks be enough improvement over the standard disks. Black Diamond type disks + 4-pot caliper upgrade seems a possible option - are such caliper upgrades available?

I'm considering approaching Tower View, as they seem to have some experience in this area, and are fairly near me, but they don't have much detail on their web site. Can anyone provide more info on them from experience?

many thanx in advance, Pum.

>>> Edited by pum on Friday 29th April 14:00

[gingerprince]

pum said:

Hi. Sorry if this has been discussed before, but the search function is broken, and I scanned through a lot of pages without success, so I'm asking here ... Can you worthy and experienced souls recommend brake upgrade options and costs to me for my 1994 Griff 500 please? I basically want to get rid of the fade I get on "enthusiastic" track days (from pad glaze and fluid boiling), a bit improved braking performance, and still comfortably useable on the road. I've got fade resistant pads and DOT 5.1 fluid already, and that helps alot, but would like to go a bit further. I want to stay with the standard wheels (15" front). I'm unsure whether to go for larger disks, such as a Tarox solution (and whether they'd even fir in the 15" rims), or would a same size solution like the Black Diamond disks be enough improvement over the standard disks. Black Diamond type disks + 4-pot caliper upgrade seems a possible option - are such caliper upgrades available? I'm considering approaching Tower View, as they seem to have some experience in this area, and are fairly near me, but they don't have much detail on their web site. Can anyone provide more info on them from experience? many thanx in advance, Pum.

My Griff has a Tower View upgrade from when I bought it. Can't remember which upgrade package it was, but it definately has bigger drilled disks, and braided brake hoses up front (to stop spongy pedal due to hose expansion). Also running DOT5.1 (though isn't this the recommended fluid anyway?) Can't remember if it has upgraded calipers too but don't think it has, I'll check that later. I believe it's running Red-dot pads but again I'll have to check. (not had to replace them yet so haven't looked that far).

Stopping power is pretty good, certainly a lot more potent than standard. I have managed to get brake fade on a track day though, but it took a while, although I haven't boiled the fluid.

HTH,

Sy

[Steve_T]

Just in the process of sorting out a Chimaera with 285mm grooved discs and Brembo 4-pots. These would go under a 15inch rim and have monster stopping power in comparison to standard. I won't say any more until the work is complete, but I think this could be just the thing for you.

Steve.

[GreenV8S]

Tower View have supplied several upgrades for the V8S which would also fit the Griffith/Chimaera. Given that you have already got the pads/fluid sorted out, the next sensible upgrade is a 285mm conversion for the front retaining the original calipers. This can be done relatively cheaply. Combined with grooved discs this gives a very noticeable improvement in heat dissipation. It also moves the brake bias to the front. Mine originally had too much rear bias and this seems common (almost universal) with TVRs, so moving it forward was an improvement. This upgrade easily fits in a standard 15" wheel.

If you want to go any further on the front then the next logical step would be 300mm + 4-pot calipers. However, it is touch and go whether this will fit in a standard 15 wheel. Mine did, but it involved juggling around fractions of a mm clearance to clear everything as it all heated up and flexed under load. This will make a huge increase to the heat dissipation and will also move the balance further to the front. At this point the rears are likely to be the limiting factor from the point of view of heat dissipation, and also to be underbraked in terms of brake balance. Both of these effects can be corrected by a rear brake upgrade, but be aware that most of the aftermarket calipers do not provide a mechanical handbrake and are not suitable for the rears so this step is harder and more expensive than the front upgrade.

>> Edited by GreenV8S on Friday 29th April 13:39

[pum]

Thanx for replies. 285mm disk with standard or 4-pot calipers sounds like the kind of level I'm after. Where would I get the disks/kit and how much? 300mm is probably more braking and more hassle than I'm after.

I'd still like to consider uprated 260mm disks (such as Black Diamond) with 4-pot calipers, although I'm guessing that would improve braking performance more than heat dissipation - anyone with comments/experience on this?

thanx, Pum.

[steve-v8s]

Excuse my ignorance but what is the aim of a “ brake upgrade” ? Even with list 1b tyres fitted I can lock the fronts fairly easily with the standard set-up. I guess the benefit is how the system deals with the heat of repeated heavy use. I am not being sarcastic, just don’t understand the benefit other than “my discs are bigger than yours”

[zippee]

steve-v8s said:

Excuse my ignorance but what is the aim of a “ brake upgrade” ? Even with list 1b tyres fitted I can lock the fronts fairly easily with the standard set-up. I guess the benefit is how the system deals with the heat of repeated heavy use. I am not being sarcastic, just don’t understand the benefit other than “my discs are bigger than yours”

I have to agree with a lot of this. I asked for advice from Offords regarding upgrading my brakes and was told that unless I was considering lots of track days I'd not really see any benefit from changing the size of the standard dics.
I opted instead to go the route of black diamond 12 groove front and rear, after which I doubt I'd need any better stopping power for my usage.
If you want better cooling you could go for drilled as well as grooved but these can crack.
The other worthwhile upgrade would be braided hoses which would firm up the pedal feel.

[GreenV8S]

pum said:

I basically want to get rid of the fade I get on "enthusiastic" track days (from pad glaze and fluid boiling)

Does that answer your question?

[pum]

Yep, basically I was getting fade from pads after less than 10 mins on track, and then the fluid boiled a few mins after that! Braking performance before fade (and on road, eg: one off emergency stop) was fine, but better is nice.

Braided hoses are a given when I get the brakes done.

Also, I have fitted Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tyres, which I believe have more traction than standard Griff tyres, so therefore should have more capacity for braking.

Pum.

>> Edited by pum on Friday 29th April 15:37

[joospeed]

I thrash the pants off my S on dunlop formula Rs and never get brake problems .. I have 260mm front discs as the griff 500s and dot 5.1. I run ebc green stuff in the front (cos they came with the discs .. wouldn't have used them otherwise, awful things - no feel at all , very wooden) and Apec pads in the rear.

I had a sticking caliper once and the driver side front disc was literally glowing red hot, but still no fade and still a firm pedal.

I would suggest before spending mega money on upgrades to 285 or beyond, get a decent set of 260mm front discs and decent pads .. if you're still having problems then you're using your brakes too much! You shouldn't overcook a std 260mm system unless you're on slicks.

mind you, big brakes look sexy

[johno]

I have upgraded to this ....





The difference is phenomenal, I agree that the original set up is very good, however, it is not a patch on these.

I used to get fade at Donington, after around 7-8 laps, although it is known for being hard on brakes.

They will be tested on track later this year .... can't wait.

You will need a 16" wheel though as these are 300mm disks.

[starmist]

I've got Wilwood 4 pot calipers and 300mm disks on the front of mine. These just fit under the standard wheels, with a small sliver shaved off the caliper.

Wilwoods are fairly inexpensive compared to Brembo or AP.

[nztrev]

I have to disagree with comments about big brakes are just for track days and no fade crap.
Big brakes will stop you So much quicker on the street too.
If your a spirited driver, using big brakes can/will change your driving style enough to gain the equivalent to a 50hp+ engine upgrade easy.

[Steve_T]

Pum,

Here's the setup I mentioned previously - 285mm rotors and 4-pot Brembos. Apparently these calipers are similar in weight to the single pot cast iron calipers they replace, despite having ~ 3 times the pad area! They go under a 15" rim with no clearance problems and should be ideal for your sort of application I'd have thought. The setup was fitted to a friend's car very recently, so I don't know the overall cost yet, but it is in the same ball park as the Tower View 285mm upgrade. Drop me a line if this sort of setup is of interest to you.

Cheers,

Steve.






>> Edited by Steve_T on Sunday 1st May 01:42

[2Munkys]

Steve_T said:

Pum, Here's the setup I mentioned previously - 285mm rotors and 4-pot Brembos. Apparently these calipers are similar in weight to the single pot cast iron calipers they replace, despite having ~ 3 times the pad area! They go under a 15" rim with no clearance problems and should be ideal for your sort of application I'd have thought. The setup was fitted to a friend's car very recently, so I don't know the overall cost yet, but it is in the same ball park as the Tower View 285mm upgrade. Drop me a line if this sort of setup is of interest to you. Cheers, Steve. >> Edited by Steve_T on Sunday 1st May 01:42

Wow Steve, they look the complete 'Dogs Danglies'; there are few better names in the business of stopping than 'Brembo'.

I think that this is the package that 'Godspeed' recommended to me during the previous week at a cost of £650 (dunno if this was inc.). Think that this is the route I'll be taking. Top Stuff!

[stesrg]

steve-v8s said:

Excuse my ignorance but what is the aim of a “ brake upgrade” ? Even with list 1b tyres fitted I can lock the fronts fairly easily with the standard set-up. I guess the benefit is how the system deals with the heat of repeated heavy use. I am not being sarcastic, just don’t understand the benefit other than “my discs are bigger than yours”

I aggree ,however using an upgrade such as drilled red dot discs and pads is no deerer than std items, with a set of braded hoses is more than enough for some hard driving.
My penneth worth.
Ste..

[GarryM]

nztrev said:

I have to disagree with comments about big brakes are just for track days and no fade crap. Big brakes will stop you So much quicker on the street too. If your a spirited driver, using big brakes can/will change your driving style enough to gain the equivalent to a 50hp+ engine upgrade easy.

I just don't understand the above. If your standard brakes are capable of locking your wheels, you can't stop any quicker with big brakes. OK, perhaps the bigger brakes will give you a bit more control to make it easier to keep your tyres at the point of lock up but apart from that, big brakes can't stop you quicker.

I actually think it quite likely that big front brakes will increase your stopping distances under some conditions, ie wet, cold etc. when grip levels are low. The standard balance is excellent for these conditions IMHO and you get used to it on a dry track as well. I'd be reluctant to lose some of that rear bias unless I was a track fiend who didn't go out in the wet or cold.

My brakes are standard size but drilled & grooved, 5.1 fluid, braided hoses and Ferodo DS2500 pads. Never experienced fade. I know they could be more powerful but they do the job.

[nztrev]

GarryM said:

nztrev said: I have to disagree with comments about big brakes are just for track days and no fade crap. Big brakes will stop you So much quicker on the street too. If your a spirited driver, using big brakes can/will change your driving style enough to gain the equivalent to a 50hp+ engine upgrade easy. I just don't understand the above. If your standard brakes are capable of locking your wheels, you can't stop any quicker with big brakes. OK, perhaps the bigger brakes will give you a bit more control to make it easier to keep your tyres at the point of lock up but apart from that, big brakes can't stop you quicker. I actually think it quite likely that big front brakes will increase your stopping distances under some conditions, ie wet, cold etc. when grip levels are low. The standard balance is excellent for these conditions IMHO and you get used to it on a dry track as well. I'd be reluctant to lose some of that rear bias unless I was a track fiend who didn't go out in the wet or cold. My brakes are standard size but drilled & grooved, 5.1 fluid, braided hoses and Ferodo DS2500 pads. Never experienced fade. I know they could be more powerful but they do the job.

OK i'm not going to argue,if you ever come down this way your welcome to have a drive,and we'll brake against a standard Griff/Chim.
Be prepared to go back home wearing a windsceen as a necklace if you haven't braced yourself...





PS: they're a bit off an overkill for a roadcar and will go on the racecar when ready,will go down to 300's & 4pots .


>> Edited by nztrev on Monday 2nd May 07:59

[Steve_T]

Yes this is the Godspeed package. It does seem good value. Once the bedding in period is out the way, we'll be in a better position to compare this setup with standard.

Steve.

2Munkys said:

Steve_T said: Pum, Here's the setup I mentioned previously - 285mm rotors and 4-pot Brembos. Apparently these calipers are similar in weight to the single pot cast iron calipers they replace, despite having ~ 3 times the pad area! They go under a 15" rim with no clearance problems and should be ideal for your sort of application I'd have thought. The setup was fitted to a friend's car very recently, so I don't know the overall cost yet, but it is in the same ball park as the Tower View 285mm upgrade. Drop me a line if this sort of setup is of interest to you. Cheers, Steve. >> Edited by Steve_T on Sunday 1st May 01:42 Wow Steve, they look the complete 'Dogs Danglies'; there are few better names in the business of stopping than 'Brembo'. I think that this is the package that 'Godspeed' recommended to me during the previous week at a cost of £650 (dunno if this was inc.). Think that this is the route I'll be taking. Top Stuff!

[jellison]

GarryM said:

nztrev said: I have to disagree with comments about big brakes are just for track days and no fade crap. Big brakes will stop you So much quicker on the street too. If your a spirited driver, using big brakes can/will change your driving style enough to gain the equivalent to a 50hp+ engine upgrade easy. I just don't understand the above. If your standard brakes are capable of locking your wheels, you can't stop any quicker with big brakes. OK, perhaps the bigger brakes will give you a bit more control to make it easier to keep your tyres at the point of lock up but apart from that, big brakes can't stop you quicker. I actually think it quite likely that big front brakes will increase your stopping distances under some conditions, ie wet, cold etc. when grip levels are low. The standard balance is excellent for these conditions IMHO and you get used to it on a dry track as well. I'd be reluctant to lose some of that rear bias unless I was a track fiend who didn't go out in the wet or cold. My brakes are standard size but drilled & grooved, 5.1 fluid, braided hoses and Ferodo DS2500 pads. Never experienced fade. I know they could be more powerful but they do the job.

Std 500 Griff or Chim are bloody diabolical. Any one can lock pretty any sized brake, but the amount of bite a big set of 4 or 6 pot quality calipers can get on a big disc will then stop the wheel, dic and tyre.

285 with std calipers are a moderate improvement, but AP TVR 4 pots (Tuscan) and 300 mm disc are truely AWESOME - ya you have to know how to stop them locking up - anyone can go by a car with ABS and just slam them - no skill there.