Why would anyone buy a Harley? Ticking time bomb
Discussion
So I was seriously considering an 07 or newer Fat Boy, but before buying I obviously wanted to do as much research as possible.
What was first noticeable is on the 'technical support' sections of HD forums, it is absolutely filled with issues, and not cheap fixes either. From my research:
Evo model bikes: Pretty damn bullet proof, but production stopped in 1998.
1999-2001 twin cam - Had a serious inner cam bearing issue, HD cheaped out and replaced the high quality Timken bearings with ones made of cheese which would detonate the engine even as low as 2000 miles. HD offered a free replacement of these bearings for a limited time.
1999-2007 twin cam - Turd cam chain tensioners. The shoes would wear out as low as 15,000 miles and most at least need checking and often replacing as low as every 20,000 miles. To do so cam plate needs to come out to access the rear tensioner and all bearings should be replaced at the same time.
2007+ replaced with hydraulic cam chain tensioners with a roller chain to reduce wear, typically good for 50,000 miles or more, but these model years and newer have higher reports of scissored cranks and naff wheel bearings.
2017- present M8 engine - Sumping problems, primary oil making its way into the transmission. Very common problem, HD has no fix and cant explain why its happening.
All twin cam model years - WEAK cranks. The cranks in the TC are simply PRESSED together with a 400 ton press at factory in a very crude manner, causing excessive pinion run out on the cam shaft. Harsh acceleration/decel can result in what is known as a scissored crank, which will take out the main bearing, cam bearings, cams, oil pump, lifters, cylinders, pistons. Engine has to be removed, fixed, and a lot of people send their crank to a company called S and S to be trued and WELDED, costing thousands.
Even with all these issues, I can see why some might buy one in the US, their dealer network is huge, and parts are cheap. But over here, everything costs more money, I even read of a guy on the UK forum who would go to America just to buy parts because its so much cheaper. If for your money you got an old fashioned engine which was also very reliable then I get it, but why anyone would pay double for less power and severely less reliability than the equivalent Honda VTX 1800, just so they can proudly tell a non biking throbber, 'Yes it IS a Harley', I dont know.
For further reading if you're bored and want to learn about why these issues occur:
http://www.jamesrussellpublishing.biz/beforeyoubuy...
I suppose in the real world a guy over here will buy one new, put in 1-3000 miles a year then sell it anywhere from 10-20,000 miles at a massive loss, but for anyone who puts decent miles on their bikes and doesn't just buy one to pose on on Sundays, these issues are hard to ignore.
What was first noticeable is on the 'technical support' sections of HD forums, it is absolutely filled with issues, and not cheap fixes either. From my research:
Evo model bikes: Pretty damn bullet proof, but production stopped in 1998.
1999-2001 twin cam - Had a serious inner cam bearing issue, HD cheaped out and replaced the high quality Timken bearings with ones made of cheese which would detonate the engine even as low as 2000 miles. HD offered a free replacement of these bearings for a limited time.
1999-2007 twin cam - Turd cam chain tensioners. The shoes would wear out as low as 15,000 miles and most at least need checking and often replacing as low as every 20,000 miles. To do so cam plate needs to come out to access the rear tensioner and all bearings should be replaced at the same time.
2007+ replaced with hydraulic cam chain tensioners with a roller chain to reduce wear, typically good for 50,000 miles or more, but these model years and newer have higher reports of scissored cranks and naff wheel bearings.
2017- present M8 engine - Sumping problems, primary oil making its way into the transmission. Very common problem, HD has no fix and cant explain why its happening.
All twin cam model years - WEAK cranks. The cranks in the TC are simply PRESSED together with a 400 ton press at factory in a very crude manner, causing excessive pinion run out on the cam shaft. Harsh acceleration/decel can result in what is known as a scissored crank, which will take out the main bearing, cam bearings, cams, oil pump, lifters, cylinders, pistons. Engine has to be removed, fixed, and a lot of people send their crank to a company called S and S to be trued and WELDED, costing thousands.
Even with all these issues, I can see why some might buy one in the US, their dealer network is huge, and parts are cheap. But over here, everything costs more money, I even read of a guy on the UK forum who would go to America just to buy parts because its so much cheaper. If for your money you got an old fashioned engine which was also very reliable then I get it, but why anyone would pay double for less power and severely less reliability than the equivalent Honda VTX 1800, just so they can proudly tell a non biking throbber, 'Yes it IS a Harley', I dont know.
For further reading if you're bored and want to learn about why these issues occur:
http://www.jamesrussellpublishing.biz/beforeyoubuy...
I suppose in the real world a guy over here will buy one new, put in 1-3000 miles a year then sell it anywhere from 10-20,000 miles at a massive loss, but for anyone who puts decent miles on their bikes and doesn't just buy one to pose on on Sundays, these issues are hard to ignore.
I can't believe that in a country as litigious as the US no-one has brought a class-action on this if it's true.
Is this more like the Porsche bore-scoring etc where in reality if affects a tiny proportion of engines out there? Obviously if you get stung it's expensive, but the chance is limited.
I would also point to other bikes having issues, nothing in lowish volumes is perfect.
Is this more like the Porsche bore-scoring etc where in reality if affects a tiny proportion of engines out there? Obviously if you get stung it's expensive, but the chance is limited.
I would also point to other bikes having issues, nothing in lowish volumes is perfect.
I bought one last week.
At £5999 the street 750 is the cheapest "classic style" motorbike I liked.
It makes a nice noise, looks lovely, is "cool", and I much prefer it over my old triumph Daytona.
I wouldn't entertain anything much more expensive from them but this thing is great.
I hadn't considered potential faults. It's a new bike with warranty.
At £5999 the street 750 is the cheapest "classic style" motorbike I liked.
It makes a nice noise, looks lovely, is "cool", and I much prefer it over my old triumph Daytona.
I wouldn't entertain anything much more expensive from them but this thing is great.
I hadn't considered potential faults. It's a new bike with warranty.
Krikkit said:
I can't believe that in a country as litigious as the US no-one has brought a class-action on this if it's true.
Is this more like the Porsche bore-scoring etc where in reality if affects a tiny proportion of engines out there? Obviously if you get stung it's expensive, but the chance is limited.
I would also point to other bikes having issues, nothing in lowish volumes is perfect.
Its luck of the draw. But the fact that there are videos on Youtube discussing cam chain tensioners and crank runout in the hundreds of thousands suggests its more common than Harley owners would like to admit.Is this more like the Porsche bore-scoring etc where in reality if affects a tiny proportion of engines out there? Obviously if you get stung it's expensive, but the chance is limited.
I would also point to other bikes having issues, nothing in lowish volumes is perfect.
And thats just those who are tech savvy and browse Youtube, others would just go to the dealer and pay through the nose.
This guy on the UK forum had it bad:
He's right in every thing he says....
I bought my 2003 Road King and in the 87000 miles I've covered everything he says has happened to me, If I thought that Harley Davidson was such a s
t bike I would never ave bought one......I didn't read all of what he said, did he mention the spoked wheels that were "Made in Italy"
My bike has had to have;
crank position censer, 2 sets of hydraulic lifters, two sets of cam chain and oil pumps replaced, a new crank shaft complete which cost me a packet I had it balanced and welded, (well Phill at Fatzboysdiner did the work) machine work carried out on a collapsed inner can bearing (again at Phills), replacement chrome on many parts, replacement wheels, two drive belts and pulleys, all original cables failed, a new alternator, head stock bearings swinging arm bushes fork seals and bushes all new wheel bearings and the list goes on and on..........
I would never recommend anyone buy one, I see lots on ebay 03 models with less that 10k on the clock, there just waiting to fall apart.........
And to cap it all off it is s
t in the corners as they described and is definitely unstable over 90mph...........To say I'm pissed off is an understatement......
Amazingly the other owners twisted it round and said, 'well thats about 40p a mile so good going I think'.
EazyDuz said:
I suppose in the real world a guy over here will buy one new, put in 1-3000 miles a year then sell it anywhere from 10-20,000 miles at a massive loss, but for anyone who puts decent miles on their bikes and doesn't just buy one to pose on on Sundays, these issues are hard to ignore.
I'm not disagreeing as such because as they should be bomb proof for what they cost but in terms of the cost of ownership there really ins't a massive loss (unless it goes bang of course 
)I bought a 1200 nightster in low season for £5k, ran it for 10k commuting and sunday posing? for a couple of years or so, nothing dropped off or went wrong, it flew out the door for £5k.
Then I bought a nearly new 2015 fatbob again in low season for £11.5k. Its getting same sort of use and aside from some noticable quality drop issues with the paint finishing nothings gone wrong or dropped off. I expect ill keep it for another year and get shot. I'll probably still get £10-10.5k for it then.
I wouldn't want to trust touring the world on one but its been great for its purpose.
Anyway the way Trump is going it might be worth more soon
Krikkit said:
I can't believe that in a country as litigious as the US no-one has brought a class-action on this if it's true.
Is this more like the Porsche bore-scoring etc where in reality if affects a tiny proportion of engines out there? Obviously if you get stung it's expensive, but the chance is limited.
I would also point to other bikes having issues, nothing in lowish volumes is perfect.
What legal recourse could one take when a vehicle fails outside of warranty? Is this more like the Porsche bore-scoring etc where in reality if affects a tiny proportion of engines out there? Obviously if you get stung it's expensive, but the chance is limited.
I would also point to other bikes having issues, nothing in lowish volumes is perfect.
By out of market warranty claims (the only data I believe we can get access to) Porsche are one of the least reliable brands of car, with significant repair costs. Things like IMS failures were something like 1 in 10 over certain time periods with bills in the many thousands of pounds. Like many German cars many are effectively time bombs perceived as having "acceptable for performance" levels of reliability, and these are every day vehicles.
When you consider that HDs are often low mileage pampered toys of the wealthy (and I'm sorry but I think also often ignorant), I think it's quite feasible that they could avoid scrutiny over their build quality. There's not much of a "natural selection" type situation when it comes to vehicles build quality, I think that's self-evident.
Good marketing can hide anything in my opinion, but I've no idea if it's true or not that HDs are s
t made... It's certainly a rumour which has been going on for some years.Prof Prolapse said:
What legal recourse could one take when a vehicle fails outside of warranty?
By out of market warranty claims (the only data I believe we can get access to) Porsche are one of the least reliable brands of car, with significant repair costs. Things like IMS failures were something like 1 in 10 over certain time periods with bills in the many thousands of pounds. Like many German cars many are effectively time bombs perceived as having "acceptable for performance" levels of reliability, and these are every day vehicles.
When you consider that HDs are often low mileage pampered toys of the wealthy (and I'm sorry but I think also often ignorant), I think it's quite feasible that they could avoid scrutiny over their build quality. There's not much of a "natural selection" type situation when it comes to vehicles build quality, I think that's self-evident.
Good marketing can hide anything in my opinion, but I've no idea if it's true or not that HDs are st made... It's certainly a rumour which has been going on for some years.
Apparently Porsche helped engineer the twin cam engine as well, make of that what you will.By out of market warranty claims (the only data I believe we can get access to) Porsche are one of the least reliable brands of car, with significant repair costs. Things like IMS failures were something like 1 in 10 over certain time periods with bills in the many thousands of pounds. Like many German cars many are effectively time bombs perceived as having "acceptable for performance" levels of reliability, and these are every day vehicles.
When you consider that HDs are often low mileage pampered toys of the wealthy (and I'm sorry but I think also often ignorant), I think it's quite feasible that they could avoid scrutiny over their build quality. There's not much of a "natural selection" type situation when it comes to vehicles build quality, I think that's self-evident.
Good marketing can hide anything in my opinion, but I've no idea if it's true or not that HDs are s
t made... It's certainly a rumour which has been going on for some years.Andy-SP2 said:
You'll be fine when they bring out electric versions 
not that far offhttps://www.theverge.com/2018/1/31/16955928/harley...
Prof Prolapse said:
What legal recourse could one take when a vehicle fails outside of warranty?
By out of market warranty claims (the only data I believe we can get access to) Porsche are one of the least reliable brands of car, with significant repair costs. Things like IMS failures were something like 1 in 10 over certain time periods with bills in the many thousands of pounds. Like many German cars many are effectively time bombs perceived as having "acceptable for performance" levels of reliability, and these are every day vehicles.
When you consider that HDs are often low mileage pampered toys of the wealthy (and I'm sorry but I think also often ignorant), I think it's quite feasible that they could avoid scrutiny over their build quality. There's not much of a "natural selection" type situation when it comes to vehicles build quality, I think that's self-evident.
Good marketing can hide anything in my opinion, but I've no idea if it's true or not that HDs are st made... It's certainly a rumour which has been going on for some years.
Nothing over here, but in the US just about anything's fair game.By out of market warranty claims (the only data I believe we can get access to) Porsche are one of the least reliable brands of car, with significant repair costs. Things like IMS failures were something like 1 in 10 over certain time periods with bills in the many thousands of pounds. Like many German cars many are effectively time bombs perceived as having "acceptable for performance" levels of reliability, and these are every day vehicles.
When you consider that HDs are often low mileage pampered toys of the wealthy (and I'm sorry but I think also often ignorant), I think it's quite feasible that they could avoid scrutiny over their build quality. There's not much of a "natural selection" type situation when it comes to vehicles build quality, I think that's self-evident.
Good marketing can hide anything in my opinion, but I've no idea if it's true or not that HDs are s
t made... It's certainly a rumour which has been going on for some years.e.g.
Toyotas with a slightly high oil consumption: https://www.classaction.com/toyota-oil-consumption...
$1b in a parts price-fixing suit: http://www.autopartsclass.com/index.php
Hyundai/Kia low fuel efficiency: https://www.hbsslaw.com/cases/hyundai--kia-fuel-ef...
The list really does go on.
I'm not trying to excuse shoddy engineering; if it's out there it should be sorted, but I'd have thought something would have been done officially with the number of people looking for ways to work like this.
How do you know how many bike are affected and whos keeping records?
Usually online forums are where people with problems go for a moan and look for solutions. Forums give you get an exaggerated view of reality. You will read about 5 guys with the same issue reported and it grows online into a "major issue" that everyone will get sooner or later, when reality is its like 0.2% affected .... its just a numbers game, and they sell hundreds of thousands of bikes per year....so yeah, maybe a few hundred people worldwide had that issue that year, but the other 299,800 didn't.
You can find the same on any brand forum and no-one other than the manufacturer knows the true picture, and the manufacturer only really tracks in warranty claims - so usually 2 years worth of warranty claim data. Everything else is just based on internet hearsay.
A quick google tells me that TVRs will all blow up, modern Aston Martin clutches go in 20k miles, Lambo clutches only last 8k miles etc, most 911s will eventually have RMS failure ....yet there are tens of thousands of happy owners driving these vehicles every day
If faults were really that bad then the lawsuits would be rife in USA....I think its just bad luck if you get a duffer, the majority dont. Buy what you like and get on with enjoying it
Usually online forums are where people with problems go for a moan and look for solutions. Forums give you get an exaggerated view of reality. You will read about 5 guys with the same issue reported and it grows online into a "major issue" that everyone will get sooner or later, when reality is its like 0.2% affected .... its just a numbers game, and they sell hundreds of thousands of bikes per year....so yeah, maybe a few hundred people worldwide had that issue that year, but the other 299,800 didn't.
You can find the same on any brand forum and no-one other than the manufacturer knows the true picture, and the manufacturer only really tracks in warranty claims - so usually 2 years worth of warranty claim data. Everything else is just based on internet hearsay.
A quick google tells me that TVRs will all blow up, modern Aston Martin clutches go in 20k miles, Lambo clutches only last 8k miles etc, most 911s will eventually have RMS failure ....yet there are tens of thousands of happy owners driving these vehicles every day
If faults were really that bad then the lawsuits would be rife in USA....I think its just bad luck if you get a duffer, the majority dont. Buy what you like and get on with enjoying it
Krikkit said:
Nothing over here, but in the US just about anything's fair game.
e.g.
Toyotas with a slightly high oil consumption: https://www.classaction.com/toyota-oil-consumption...
$1b in a parts price-fixing suit: http://www.autopartsclass.com/index.php
Hyundai/Kia low fuel efficiency: https://www.hbsslaw.com/cases/hyundai--kia-fuel-ef...
The list really does go on.
I'm not trying to excuse shoddy engineering; if it's out there it should be sorted, but I'd have thought something would have been done officially with the number of people looking for ways to work like this.
aslo look at the mess Ford got into when their 1999 Cobra delivered 15hp less than advertised....e.g.
Toyotas with a slightly high oil consumption: https://www.classaction.com/toyota-oil-consumption...
$1b in a parts price-fixing suit: http://www.autopartsclass.com/index.php
Hyundai/Kia low fuel efficiency: https://www.hbsslaw.com/cases/hyundai--kia-fuel-ef...
The list really does go on.
I'm not trying to excuse shoddy engineering; if it's out there it should be sorted, but I'd have thought something would have been done officially with the number of people looking for ways to work like this.
bogie said:
How do you know how many bike are affected and whos keeping records?
Usually online forums are where people with problems go for a moan and look for solutions. Forums give you get an exaggerated view of reality. You will read about 5 guys with the same issue reported and it grows online into a "major issue" that everyone will get sooner or later, when reality is its like 0.2% affected .... its just a numbers game, and they sell hundreds of thousands of bikes per year....so yeah, maybe a few hundred people worldwide had that issue that year, but the other 299,800 didn't.
You can find the same on any brand forum and no-one other than the manufacturer knows the true picture, and the manufacturer only really tracks in warranty claims - so usually 2 years worth of warranty claim data. Everything else is just based on internet hearsay.
A quick google tells me that TVRs will all blow up, modern Aston Martin clutches go in 20k miles, Lambo clutches only last 8k miles etc, most 911s will eventually have RMS failure ....yet there are tens of thousands of happy owners driving these vehicles every day
If faults were really that bad then the lawsuits would be rife in USA....I think its just bad luck if you get a duffer, the majority dont. Buy what you like and get on with enjoying it
Compared to the equivalent metric cruiser forums, in the technical subforums it is rarely anything more than a burnt stator, loose wheel spoke and other small things like that.Usually online forums are where people with problems go for a moan and look for solutions. Forums give you get an exaggerated view of reality. You will read about 5 guys with the same issue reported and it grows online into a "major issue" that everyone will get sooner or later, when reality is its like 0.2% affected .... its just a numbers game, and they sell hundreds of thousands of bikes per year....so yeah, maybe a few hundred people worldwide had that issue that year, but the other 299,800 didn't.
You can find the same on any brand forum and no-one other than the manufacturer knows the true picture, and the manufacturer only really tracks in warranty claims - so usually 2 years worth of warranty claim data. Everything else is just based on internet hearsay.
A quick google tells me that TVRs will all blow up, modern Aston Martin clutches go in 20k miles, Lambo clutches only last 8k miles etc, most 911s will eventually have RMS failure ....yet there are tens of thousands of happy owners driving these vehicles every day
If faults were really that bad then the lawsuits would be rife in USA....I think its just bad luck if you get a duffer, the majority dont. Buy what you like and get on with enjoying it
I've done a lot of reading, and it certainly is not one or two people suffering from these engine destroying problems. But what can you expect from a pressed together crank and an ancient engine design? Japs have had overhead cams for how long now? Whereas Harley refuses to give up the pushrods and cam chest, full of weak bearings and oil pumps operating at 3psi when hot.
Why would a company such as S&S exist if Harley built a reliable engine? They build clone twin cam engines with parts built to last.
Or if you like cold hard facts:
https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2015/04/w...
A 26% failure rate after just 4 years of ownership is not good odds. And that is going to increase if you ride more than your typical Harley rider does.
Still not convinced? Then why are there hundreds of thousands of results when I google this:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=crank+run+out+ha...
Lifestyle choice, who the hell would buy a Harley on its merits outside USA?
Historically though, the Jap clones have been an embarrassment because they just crib everything, usually improving it but without any character or emotion. Which matters in this sector.
I would probably just get a Triumph if I actually wanted a bike in this vein.
Historically though, the Jap clones have been an embarrassment because they just crib everything, usually improving it but without any character or emotion. Which matters in this sector.
I would probably just get a Triumph if I actually wanted a bike in this vein.
Meh, that depends. Older Harleys are unreliable, a bit like any other bike (except for perhaps Honda).
In my experience with newer ones (some 50,000 miles in 4 years on 2 bikes) the only things I had to fix were on my first Street Glide (stator and voltage regulator).
The one I have now (2014 model) runs very well. I don't wear assless chaps or fake club colours, ride solo for up to 1,000km/day when touring and I wouldn't have any other bike to do that (except maybe a Guzzi Flying Fortess)
In my experience with newer ones (some 50,000 miles in 4 years on 2 bikes) the only things I had to fix were on my first Street Glide (stator and voltage regulator).
The one I have now (2014 model) runs very well. I don't wear assless chaps or fake club colours, ride solo for up to 1,000km/day when touring and I wouldn't have any other bike to do that (except maybe a Guzzi Flying Fortess)
I bought a new Electra Glide Ultra Limited last year.
Very badly built piece of crap.
PDI was very badly done. Bits fell off on way home from dealer. Bike broke down a couple of weeks later. Phoned Harley Assist and I was asked "Is it petrol or diesel?"
After bike was fixed they wanted £300 to return bike to me.
Bike failed again due to electrical problem.
Then I noticed severe corrosion on lhs fork leg. Both dealer and Harley UK refused warranty claim as they stated that the forks still worked as forks so not covered.
Very poor quality bike with dreadful after sales.
Very badly built piece of crap.
PDI was very badly done. Bits fell off on way home from dealer. Bike broke down a couple of weeks later. Phoned Harley Assist and I was asked "Is it petrol or diesel?"
After bike was fixed they wanted £300 to return bike to me.
Bike failed again due to electrical problem.
Then I noticed severe corrosion on lhs fork leg. Both dealer and Harley UK refused warranty claim as they stated that the forks still worked as forks so not covered.
Very poor quality bike with dreadful after sales.
Baldchap said:
In response to OP, look on any manufacturer specific forum's technical area and you'll see pages of problems.
KTMs apparently spontaneously explode/fall to pieces/melt or otherwise die. I had a couple of 690s, & the only thing I didn't like was the oil consumption at 500ml/1000 miles. But what else do you expect from a massive single? Apart from that, I had no issue whatsoever, winter riding & 9K miles/year.I still believe Hondas are made out of some sort of magical element & therefore do not break. Same for Toyota, Isuzu & others....
Would be interesting to see a reliability comparison test between HD & Indian.
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