French Gendarmerie abuse of power (+ better route to Italy)
Discussion
I recently had another bad experience when travelling from London to Florence by car. This time I feel it necessary to share my experience and to give further exposure to the speed trap abuse by the French police, and their abuse of power specifically against UK drivers. I admit that being used to driving in Italy, my cruising speed for long distance journeys is between 140 and 170kmh on most motorways where the speed limit is 130kmh (when the situation is safe), and I do drive a performance car. With that out the way, I am a safe driver (15+ years without an accident), and I have a lot of experience driving on EU motorways.
My beef with the French police is the following:
1) That they are allowed to stop you for speeding on the motorway, confiscate your license on the spot (without a permit to arrive to your final destination), and impound your car on the spot, all without proof that it was actually your car travelling at that speed (no photographic evidence required). The laser speed detectors used are more precise than radar speed detectors given that they use a narrower beam, however the offices cannot see the beam and as a result, the laser detector's measurement is highly subject to error, especially when an overtaking car is involved. Just a slight movement of the finger by the police officer targeting your car that takes a laser measurement of your license plate and accidently your windshield for a microsecond can result in a 10kmh increased speed on the laser gun. The French police show you the speed on the unit, but it becomes your word against two police officers that it was actually your car travelling at that speed.
2) They only accept cash payments. When requesting to pay by credit card they said that is was not possible, and insisted to bring me at a cashpoint machine so that I can get the cash (they even have a nice drawn map indicating how to get to the nearest cashpoint). What’s more is that the French website that permits you to pay fines online with a credit card requires a proper fine with a 10 digit identification code, which the French police do not provide to UK motorists.
3) They do not provide a reasonable minimum assistance to UK citizens. There was only 1 person that spoke limited English in the police station both times I was there, and the only solution the whole police station could give me involved obtaining more cash, a lot more cash then and there. Given that I could not get more cash, they left me stranded, twice.
So here is what happened (for those who haven’t got the time to read the whole post, jump to the end for a couple of tips):
While driving through France on the motorway on a nice sunny day I saw a police car overtake me and asked me to follow them. I followed their instructions and we arrived at their police station at the next exit, where they showed me a speed gun showing a very high speed (85+kmh over the 130 speed limit). I was shocked, and stated that it was impossible that it was me, but they insisted that it was, so the car was immediately impounded, and I was brought into the police station to fill out the paperwork.
While taking my statement, the police officer (one of the two that originally stopped me) stated that “there was a car that had just overtaken me that was going much faster and got away”, confirming that she saw the overtaking car. I wasn’t given any other option but to sign the forms, accepting the €750 fine, that my UK license would be confiscated, and that the car would be impounded for a week. All these forms where in French, and my statements where written in French (translated in French by the police officer), so I didn’t understand what I was signing. I was tired and just wanted to get to my destination. They stated that my UK driving license would be sent to my UK home in around 6 weeks and gave me a form permitting me to drive outside of France.
Unfortunately, there was (and at the time of writing this post there still is) an ongoing train strike in France, and I was then told by the officers at the police station that there were no trains at all running in France at least for another 3 days, so I was basically stranded in the middle of nowhere. I luckily had around €300 extra emergency cash with me, so I got a taxi to the nearest large town about an hour away, and managed to find a combination of blablacar rides to arrive at Dijon. Contrary to that stated by the officers at the police station, I did find a train to Italy and managed to get to my final destination the next morning.
After a few days, I had accepted a €360 quote from an Italian car transporter to collect the car and bring it to Italy, given it was the easiest way to get my car back. I called the police station requesting the 10 digit code so that I could pay the fine online, only to be told repeatedly that there was no way to pay the fine online, and that I had to personally visit the station to sign and pay €750 in cash + €160 for the impound charges. I had no choice to accept, but without the availability of another driver, I requested that they give me permission to drive the car to the final destination myself. The police officer on the line (the same one that stopped me) stated that she would ask her boss and let me know by email. She was very helpful, and I received an email stating “my boss said it was ok”. I then called the police station again, and confirmed 3 times in very basic English with her (the only person at the police station that spoke English) that I would be permitted to drive the car personally to the final destination. I was told yes all 3 times, and given that I had written confirmation in an email from the police station, I booked the train tickets and blablacar ride and left for France.
After travelling for 14 hours I arrived at the police station at 10:45am and paid the €750 fine, only to be told that I was not permitted to drive the car in France. There was an obvious a personnel shift change as even the commanding officer was different. I stated that I was told differently the day before, and showed them the email conversation with their police department. They went to the back office, and after an 45 mins of making me sweat in a probably the only room without air conditioning in the precinct, an obviously extreme right winged commanding officer came out and stated “no, you cannot drive in France for at least 3 months”. I of course objected, but the police officer translating stated “it was a mistake for her colleague to have given me permission, and that the decision was no, and that was it”.
At that point the commanding office left the room, and it seemed like all the other 8 police officers at the station were all on their smartphones trying to help me find a solution. Unfortunately the best they came up with was a nearly €2K cost to transport the car to Lausanne, or a nearly €1K cost of a dual driver taxi to take me to Lausanne. Both these solutions required cash. No credit card payments possible (in 2018, really?) and I didn’t have any luck calling numbers found online given that I do not speak French. Lucky enough it was 12pm and the police station closed for 2 hours for lunch, so I asked them to just bring me to the garage where my car was impounded. After I was dropped off and the policewoman drove away, I showed my Italian driving license to the impound lot (an additional license I had renewed in Italy a couple of days before, not the UK driving license that the police confiscated), and after they made a copy of it they and let me drive off. I was aware that if I was stopped by the police again or if I got into an accident that I would be imprisoned, but I had had enough, and risked the 4+ hour drive in France, and finally arrived at my destination after 9 hours.
Now putting aside the narrow minded ignorance demonstrated by the officers at the French police station in question, the fact that France does not adhere to EU road sign regulations for speed traps, that any objection involves you having to travel to their local court at a future date, and even that the French police openly admit to scouring lists of cars booked onto Channel Tunnel trains or ferries, communicating the high performance UK car details to their colleagues so that they can target you specifically on south-bound motorways (I guess the French government is somehow exempt from the GDPR laws). Putting all that aside, surely in this day and age, with corporate directors taking personal responsibility for their actions and the #metoo movement, social and personal responsibility must also be upheld for the government authorities in Europe.
I would support anyone that has time to start a #REGAA “Report European Government Authority Abuse” campaign, or something similar to attempt to disrupt the arrogant abuse of power by EU government authorities in general by demanding transparency and accountability, not only for the French Gendarmerie National, in maybe a crazy objective to slightly shift the balance towards the citizens.
Don’t get me wrong, I am aware that over the past 15 years the French car accident mortality rate has been reduced by around 65%, and I am not unsympathetic (I have personally felt the pain of the loss of my auntie and a good friend in road accidents). However, it is blatantly clear that the French police in the name of “safety” have an overly deserved power to be judge, jury, and executioner towards UK motorists without any reputable evidence, especially when cold hard cash is involved.
Unfortunately, I currently do not have the time or the money to go on file and pursue this issue. This post was mainly for a personal therapeutic purpose, helping me to unload the negativity in my life. I hope that it will at least give the heads up for other UK motorist driving in France.
If you have to drive in France, download a black box app or a sensor logging app for your android phone or iPhone, in case you are stopped and have to prove to the French police that you are not guilty. Just make sure not to use the video recording feature or even better download an app without the video recording feature such as Sensor Recording Pro for Android or Sensors Pro for iPhone (if you have an ODB II device there are many more options providing extra car related details). Also, make sure there aren’t any other navigation apps installed on the phone that show any kind of speed trap warning systems, including the simple gps points of interests, given that it will give the French police another excuse to give you an even more hefty cash fine.
For anyone driving to Italy, just add the following intermediary destinations to limit the driving in France to about 30 mins: Veurne (Belgium), Luxembourg, Karlsruhe (Germany). It does add around 160km (about 90mins) to your trip, but it is a much more scenic route, there are less long tunnels, and it’s €100 cheaper each way compared to the standard Mont-Blanc tunnel route
My beef with the French police is the following:
1) That they are allowed to stop you for speeding on the motorway, confiscate your license on the spot (without a permit to arrive to your final destination), and impound your car on the spot, all without proof that it was actually your car travelling at that speed (no photographic evidence required). The laser speed detectors used are more precise than radar speed detectors given that they use a narrower beam, however the offices cannot see the beam and as a result, the laser detector's measurement is highly subject to error, especially when an overtaking car is involved. Just a slight movement of the finger by the police officer targeting your car that takes a laser measurement of your license plate and accidently your windshield for a microsecond can result in a 10kmh increased speed on the laser gun. The French police show you the speed on the unit, but it becomes your word against two police officers that it was actually your car travelling at that speed.
2) They only accept cash payments. When requesting to pay by credit card they said that is was not possible, and insisted to bring me at a cashpoint machine so that I can get the cash (they even have a nice drawn map indicating how to get to the nearest cashpoint). What’s more is that the French website that permits you to pay fines online with a credit card requires a proper fine with a 10 digit identification code, which the French police do not provide to UK motorists.
3) They do not provide a reasonable minimum assistance to UK citizens. There was only 1 person that spoke limited English in the police station both times I was there, and the only solution the whole police station could give me involved obtaining more cash, a lot more cash then and there. Given that I could not get more cash, they left me stranded, twice.
So here is what happened (for those who haven’t got the time to read the whole post, jump to the end for a couple of tips):
While driving through France on the motorway on a nice sunny day I saw a police car overtake me and asked me to follow them. I followed their instructions and we arrived at their police station at the next exit, where they showed me a speed gun showing a very high speed (85+kmh over the 130 speed limit). I was shocked, and stated that it was impossible that it was me, but they insisted that it was, so the car was immediately impounded, and I was brought into the police station to fill out the paperwork.
While taking my statement, the police officer (one of the two that originally stopped me) stated that “there was a car that had just overtaken me that was going much faster and got away”, confirming that she saw the overtaking car. I wasn’t given any other option but to sign the forms, accepting the €750 fine, that my UK license would be confiscated, and that the car would be impounded for a week. All these forms where in French, and my statements where written in French (translated in French by the police officer), so I didn’t understand what I was signing. I was tired and just wanted to get to my destination. They stated that my UK driving license would be sent to my UK home in around 6 weeks and gave me a form permitting me to drive outside of France.
Unfortunately, there was (and at the time of writing this post there still is) an ongoing train strike in France, and I was then told by the officers at the police station that there were no trains at all running in France at least for another 3 days, so I was basically stranded in the middle of nowhere. I luckily had around €300 extra emergency cash with me, so I got a taxi to the nearest large town about an hour away, and managed to find a combination of blablacar rides to arrive at Dijon. Contrary to that stated by the officers at the police station, I did find a train to Italy and managed to get to my final destination the next morning.
After a few days, I had accepted a €360 quote from an Italian car transporter to collect the car and bring it to Italy, given it was the easiest way to get my car back. I called the police station requesting the 10 digit code so that I could pay the fine online, only to be told repeatedly that there was no way to pay the fine online, and that I had to personally visit the station to sign and pay €750 in cash + €160 for the impound charges. I had no choice to accept, but without the availability of another driver, I requested that they give me permission to drive the car to the final destination myself. The police officer on the line (the same one that stopped me) stated that she would ask her boss and let me know by email. She was very helpful, and I received an email stating “my boss said it was ok”. I then called the police station again, and confirmed 3 times in very basic English with her (the only person at the police station that spoke English) that I would be permitted to drive the car personally to the final destination. I was told yes all 3 times, and given that I had written confirmation in an email from the police station, I booked the train tickets and blablacar ride and left for France.
After travelling for 14 hours I arrived at the police station at 10:45am and paid the €750 fine, only to be told that I was not permitted to drive the car in France. There was an obvious a personnel shift change as even the commanding officer was different. I stated that I was told differently the day before, and showed them the email conversation with their police department. They went to the back office, and after an 45 mins of making me sweat in a probably the only room without air conditioning in the precinct, an obviously extreme right winged commanding officer came out and stated “no, you cannot drive in France for at least 3 months”. I of course objected, but the police officer translating stated “it was a mistake for her colleague to have given me permission, and that the decision was no, and that was it”.
At that point the commanding office left the room, and it seemed like all the other 8 police officers at the station were all on their smartphones trying to help me find a solution. Unfortunately the best they came up with was a nearly €2K cost to transport the car to Lausanne, or a nearly €1K cost of a dual driver taxi to take me to Lausanne. Both these solutions required cash. No credit card payments possible (in 2018, really?) and I didn’t have any luck calling numbers found online given that I do not speak French. Lucky enough it was 12pm and the police station closed for 2 hours for lunch, so I asked them to just bring me to the garage where my car was impounded. After I was dropped off and the policewoman drove away, I showed my Italian driving license to the impound lot (an additional license I had renewed in Italy a couple of days before, not the UK driving license that the police confiscated), and after they made a copy of it they and let me drive off. I was aware that if I was stopped by the police again or if I got into an accident that I would be imprisoned, but I had had enough, and risked the 4+ hour drive in France, and finally arrived at my destination after 9 hours.
Now putting aside the narrow minded ignorance demonstrated by the officers at the French police station in question, the fact that France does not adhere to EU road sign regulations for speed traps, that any objection involves you having to travel to their local court at a future date, and even that the French police openly admit to scouring lists of cars booked onto Channel Tunnel trains or ferries, communicating the high performance UK car details to their colleagues so that they can target you specifically on south-bound motorways (I guess the French government is somehow exempt from the GDPR laws). Putting all that aside, surely in this day and age, with corporate directors taking personal responsibility for their actions and the #metoo movement, social and personal responsibility must also be upheld for the government authorities in Europe.
I would support anyone that has time to start a #REGAA “Report European Government Authority Abuse” campaign, or something similar to attempt to disrupt the arrogant abuse of power by EU government authorities in general by demanding transparency and accountability, not only for the French Gendarmerie National, in maybe a crazy objective to slightly shift the balance towards the citizens.
Don’t get me wrong, I am aware that over the past 15 years the French car accident mortality rate has been reduced by around 65%, and I am not unsympathetic (I have personally felt the pain of the loss of my auntie and a good friend in road accidents). However, it is blatantly clear that the French police in the name of “safety” have an overly deserved power to be judge, jury, and executioner towards UK motorists without any reputable evidence, especially when cold hard cash is involved.
Unfortunately, I currently do not have the time or the money to go on file and pursue this issue. This post was mainly for a personal therapeutic purpose, helping me to unload the negativity in my life. I hope that it will at least give the heads up for other UK motorist driving in France.
If you have to drive in France, download a black box app or a sensor logging app for your android phone or iPhone, in case you are stopped and have to prove to the French police that you are not guilty. Just make sure not to use the video recording feature or even better download an app without the video recording feature such as Sensor Recording Pro for Android or Sensors Pro for iPhone (if you have an ODB II device there are many more options providing extra car related details). Also, make sure there aren’t any other navigation apps installed on the phone that show any kind of speed trap warning systems, including the simple gps points of interests, given that it will give the French police another excuse to give you an even more hefty cash fine.
For anyone driving to Italy, just add the following intermediary destinations to limit the driving in France to about 30 mins: Veurne (Belgium), Luxembourg, Karlsruhe (Germany). It does add around 160km (about 90mins) to your trip, but it is a much more scenic route, there are less long tunnels, and it’s €100 cheaper each way compared to the standard Mont-Blanc tunnel route
Decent intelligent post - your clearly new round here... 
Seriously though thanks for your time to post that.
I'm not sure I could have stopped myself teaching Les Flics some irate Anglo Saxon apart from the fact they have big guns & an even bigger attitude.
I'm pretty sure they would ignore your speed evidence though with a Gallic shrug & a mumbled 'pay'
Seriously though thanks for your time to post that.
I'm not sure I could have stopped myself teaching Les Flics some irate Anglo Saxon apart from the fact they have big guns & an even bigger attitude.
I'm pretty sure they would ignore your speed evidence though with a Gallic shrug & a mumbled 'pay'
Tannedbaldhead said:
My Sat nav shows all the speed camera locations in Europe and warns me with the red alert claxon from Captain Kirk's Enterprise.
Is that illegal in France?
AFAIK radar detectors and speed camera locators are illegal in FranceIs that illegal in France?
Apparently having a navigation app on your iPhone (or similar) that has the capability is illegal, even if you're using it or not.
Apparently even apps or devices showing speed cameras via GPS location are illegal in France.
Waze shows an area of danger or some such.
Not sure if that is enough to satisfy a French cop that you were actively avoiding traps though.
Been a few of these stories on PH lately. Making me think I'll avoid France in a UK registered car.
Maybe they think we've already left the EU.
Waze shows an area of danger or some such.
Not sure if that is enough to satisfy a French cop that you were actively avoiding traps though.
Been a few of these stories on PH lately. Making me think I'll avoid France in a UK registered car.
Maybe they think we've already left the EU.
I lived in France for 8 years and not getting caught speeding is very easy. All the speed cameras have to be marked with signs before them. If you see a speed trap sign, then it is likely that within 500m there will be a speed trap. In terms of speeding on the motorway and getting caught by radar there are no signs for that. However, if you are driving above the speed limit (you stated that you like to do between 140-170km/h) - even at 170kmh (40km/h over the limit) you would have had your car and licence taken off you. After 160km/h, the speed is basically irrelevant, you will lose your car and licence and pay a fine.
I agree that from your post your treatment sounds a bit harsh and they gave you the runaround on whether you can take the car back or not, but in reality, you freely admit that you like to break the law there by going minimum 10km/h over the limit. If you don't wanna do the time, don't commit the crime.
If there is a place to not speed in Europe then it is Switzerland. Do not speed in Switzerland, ever.
I agree that from your post your treatment sounds a bit harsh and they gave you the runaround on whether you can take the car back or not, but in reality, you freely admit that you like to break the law there by going minimum 10km/h over the limit. If you don't wanna do the time, don't commit the crime.
If there is a place to not speed in Europe then it is Switzerland. Do not speed in Switzerland, ever.
Thanks for the post and sorry you hear of your French woes!
Couple of us are travelling to the Ring in September and have already decided to get the Ferry to Dunkirk and scurry over to Belgium in the shortest distance, travelling 10kph under the speed limit at ALL times! Not taking any chances.
Couple of us are travelling to the Ring in September and have already decided to get the Ferry to Dunkirk and scurry over to Belgium in the shortest distance, travelling 10kph under the speed limit at ALL times! Not taking any chances.
Have fun MikeDrop – the Ring is on my bucket list
bulldog, I'm not saying that I was innocent. I am willing to pay for my actions. However it's the fact that the speed they recorded with the mobile laser speed gun was not of my car, but the overtaking car. No proof required apart from the word of the French police officer. This is without taking into account that human error is a possibility. One of the police officers that originally stopped me was clearly new to the job (had to rewrite the incident form because of errors pointed out by her colleague).
bulldog, I'm not saying that I was innocent. I am willing to pay for my actions. However it's the fact that the speed they recorded with the mobile laser speed gun was not of my car, but the overtaking car. No proof required apart from the word of the French police officer. This is without taking into account that human error is a possibility. One of the police officers that originally stopped me was clearly new to the job (had to rewrite the incident form because of errors pointed out by her colleague).
While I sympathise with your plight I am at a loss as to why UK drivers do take French motorway speeds with a pinch of salt.
I have just returned from a long Euro trip and go there regularly, I drive very fast in parts of France and Germany but early morning in out of the way places. On Toll roads and motorways I stick close to the limit regardless of what car I'm in. 99% of people complaining about treatment by French police seem to be speeding on motorways, for me it is a "but what did you expect" moment.
You normally drive between 130 and 170?
Well, there you are then.
I stay at 130 and expect to arrive at my destination when the sat nav says I will. No stress.
Driving in Europe is way better than the UK and well worth the trip but you have to follow some basic rules.
I have just returned from a long Euro trip and go there regularly, I drive very fast in parts of France and Germany but early morning in out of the way places. On Toll roads and motorways I stick close to the limit regardless of what car I'm in. 99% of people complaining about treatment by French police seem to be speeding on motorways, for me it is a "but what did you expect" moment.
You normally drive between 130 and 170?
Well, there you are then.
I stay at 130 and expect to arrive at my destination when the sat nav says I will. No stress.
Driving in Europe is way better than the UK and well worth the trip but you have to follow some basic rules.
Dimebars said:
AFAIK radar detectors and speed camera locators are illegal in France
Apparently having a navigation app on your iPhone (or similar) that has the capability is illegal, even if you're using it or not.
I recently rented a car and drove through France and Belgium. On the sat nav I noticed in Belgium the speed cameras were marked exactly where they were but, in France, there were no speed cameras marked but several 2-3km sections of motorway with an unspecified hazard showing on the route. It wasn't until I'd been through two or three wondering what the hazard was until I realised there was a speed camera in the middle of most of the hazard zones. I assume this is a work around they are using to get around the French law about speed cameras and sat navs.Apparently having a navigation app on your iPhone (or similar) that has the capability is illegal, even if you're using it or not.
These days, I stick to the same speed in France that I drive in the UK, 150 km/h. Never had a problem. I've seen lots of other Brits (and Dutch, Belgians, Austrians and Germans) get stopped. Fifteen years ago, when things were very different, I drove through a speedtrap near Tours sur Marne at 230 km/h in an M3, slowed down and turned off at the next junction, only to see another UK-registered M3 getting stopped as I exited the motorway. 
br d, I get where you are coming from, and broadly agree ...it's the law, and I admit that I have stepped over the line.
However there seems to be a complete lack of accountability from the French police, and given that it has paved the way for a cash injection to their local precincts, I can’t see this changing any time soon.
Amateurish, you're right. In hindsight I should have objected further, but at the time my energy levels were depleted and I just wanted to get to my destination. Not sure how much longer they would have keep me at the precinct if I refused to sign the form.
daimlerv8, I was told by a French guy on one of the blablacar rides that the French police are now expanding by outsourcing their speed control enforcement. They have just given the ok to 500+ unmarked cars with speed guns, so watch out.
However there seems to be a complete lack of accountability from the French police, and given that it has paved the way for a cash injection to their local precincts, I can’t see this changing any time soon.
Amateurish, you're right. In hindsight I should have objected further, but at the time my energy levels were depleted and I just wanted to get to my destination. Not sure how much longer they would have keep me at the precinct if I refused to sign the form.
daimlerv8, I was told by a French guy on one of the blablacar rides that the French police are now expanding by outsourcing their speed control enforcement. They have just given the ok to 500+ unmarked cars with speed guns, so watch out.
I was “caught” a couple of years back in barely moist conditions that I thought didn’t mean I should have been travelling at 110kph, I had my cruise set to 132kph showing 129kph ish on the GPS and they stopped be with a grand convoy of police bikes and told me I had been doing 145kph. Again total b******s! Only 90 Euros and on my way but was still annoyed that they blatantly over inflated my speed but there was nothing I could do about it. Your word against theirs.
Also who makes a call on what constitutes wet weather, obviously they do but it seems a very vague rule (if not in principle quite a good rule).
Also who makes a call on what constitutes wet weather, obviously they do but it seems a very vague rule (if not in principle quite a good rule).
Sal GT said:
daimlerv8, I was told by a French guy on one of the blablacar rides that the French police are now expanding by outsourcing their speed control enforcement. They have just given the ok to 500+ unmarked cars with speed guns, so watch out.
I heard something similar on my last trip Sal. It's inevitable, any enjoyment taken from driving is slowly evaporating away. I consider myself very lucky to have driven decent cars on decent roads while it was still fun.
If you're 20 now and love cars your driving experience is going to be very different from us old gits!
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