Managing and pay

[TheAngryDog]

I do two roles in my company; I look after the IT and I manage a small team of people / manage client services.

I have some questions that are bugging me.

1) should I know how much my team are paid?
2) would you be annoyed if you knew how much a team member who you manage was paid and it is the same as yours? Now I realise this isn't necessarily something to be annoyed about as sometimes the person has a specialist job, which I would gladly accept, except this guy was employed to do a certain role but always comes up with reasons why he can't fulfill that aspect. He is also absolutely useless.

Cheers.

[98elise]

TheAngryDog said:

I do two roles in my company; I look after the IT and I manage a small team of people / manage client services.

I have some questions that are bugging me.

1) should I know how much my team are paid?
2) would you be annoyed if you knew how much a team member who you manage was paid and it is the same as yours? Now I realise this isn't necessarily something to be annoyed about as sometimes the person has a specialist job, which I would gladly accept, except this guy was employed to do a certain role but always comes up with reasons why he can't fulfill that aspect. He is also absolutely useless.

Cheers.

Yes you should know what your team earn.

It's ok for someone on the team to earn more if it's deserved (longer hours, specialist skills etc)

In your case it seems unwarranted.

[TheAngryDog]

98elise said:

Yes you should know what your team earn.

It's ok for someone on the team to earn more if it's deserved (longer hours, specialist skills etc)

In your case it seems unwarranted.

Thanks for your reply. Agreed on point 1 - I would have no issue with that. Part of their job involves travel and being away for up to 1 or 2 weeks at a time several times a year, but, the last 2 times he has been asked to go he has come up with excuses. He also complained about being away so much recently. It was all made clear to him when he was offered the position (I inherited him when I took over managing the department), so to complain about it (he gets any weekends he is away back in lieu / paid) so I think it is a little crass.

I work longer hours but I am management so I expected to. I am generally in before him and leave after him. I obviously have more responsibility than him and I have to babysit him quite a lot, which isn't something I think he should need but c'est la vie. As it happens, I know I am on the same pay as he is.

I guess I need to consider what to do next. Should I raise it with my manager? He may question how I know etc. We are also on a pay freeze at the moment, so not only did I not get a pay rise when I took over the department, I aren't due one any time soon (first time I've not had a pay increase within 12 months of joining a company)

Edited by TheAngryDog on Thursday 28th June 09:55

[MYOB]

I don't believe it's an automatic "right" that a manager should know their team members salaries. Lots of employers don't allow this to happen and normally for good reasons. Your role is to manage the team with no bias and simply focus on getting the work done.

This is mostly the case with the larger employers, but I imagine it happens in the smaller firms to a degree too.

[Taglioni]

So you’re his boss, don’t you do performance reviews?
You confuse hours at the desk with real contribution, not the same thing
And your proposal to whinge up the chain sounds weak and disempowered, I’d kick your arse for taking that approach

Clarify your role and limits of authority, then show some leadership instead of crying to strangers on the internet

[98elise]

MYOB said:

I don't believe it's an automatic "right" that a manager should know their team members salaries. Lots of employers don't allow this to happen and normally for good reasons. Your role is to manage the team with no bias and simply focus on getting the work done.

This is mostly the case with the larger employers, but I imagine it happens in the smaller firms to a degree too.

If you don't know what your team earn how do you budget? How do you recruit?

How do you determine pay rises, bonuses if you don't know what salary they are on. What happens if someone on your team believes they are underpaid and wants a rise?

[Countdown]

98elise said:

If you don't know what your team earn how do you budget? How do you recruit?

How do you determine pay rises, bonuses if you don't know what salary they are on. What happens if someone on your team believes they are underpaid and wants a rise?

Not all Managers are “budget holders”. For example in our place it’s the department Head who would make decisions about pay, bonuses, recruitment etc. 1st level line managers (possibly aka team leaders or supervisors) tend to be responsible for making sure day-to-day stuff gets done.

[Countdown]

TheAngryDog said:

I do two roles in my company; I look after the IT and I manage a small team of people / manage client services.

I have some questions that are bugging me.

1) should I know how much my team are paid?
2) would you be annoyed if you knew how much a team member who you manage was paid and it is the same as yours? Now I realise this isn't necessarily something to be annoyed about as sometimes the person has a specialist job, which I would gladly accept, except this guy was employed to do a certain role but always comes up with reasons why he can't fulfill that aspect. He is also absolutely useless.

Cheers.

1. There’s no reason for you to know. If there WAS a need for you to know then you’d already know (IYSWIM)
2. Not necessarily annoyed. In a lot of jobs pay bands can overlap and some employees might get special allowances/supplements that their manager might not.

Wrt him being useless (and I might be missing something here) as his manager why have you not instigated a performance management process?

[DanL]

Countdown said:

1. There’s no reason for you to know. If there WAS a need for you to know then you’d already know (IYSWIM)
2. Not necessarily annoyed. In a lot of jobs pay bands can overlap and some employees might get special allowances/supplements that their manager might not.

Wrt him being useless (and I might be missing something here) as his manager why have you not instigated a performance management process?

This.

Regardless of what they’re paid, if they’re not doing the job it’s your job to get them to do it... If he was paid less, would you still be as vexed? Answering that question for yourself will help you decide if you’re just resentful, or have a genuine problem that you should address with performance management.

[NDA]

TheAngryDog said:

I do two roles in my company; I look after the IT and I manage a small team of people / manage client services.

I have some questions that are bugging me.

1) should I know how much my team are paid?
2) would you be annoyed if you knew how much a team member who you manage was paid and it is the same as yours? Now I realise this isn't necessarily something to be annoyed about as sometimes the person has a specialist job, which I would gladly accept, except this guy was employed to do a certain role but always comes up with reasons why he can't fulfill that aspect. He is also absolutely useless.

Cheers.

It's a thorny subject.... I have run two companies with two different policies.

In the first one, only one person set salaries and managed reviews (the CEO), the managers occasionally wanted to know what their team members earned, but were never told. It worked very well - there was no pressure to increase salaries and people were happy.

In the second, there was a culture of managers knowing and, by osmosis, everyone in the company then knew what everyone else was earning. It was chaotic.

I am always slightly anxious that you get power bases being built when managers 'need to know' what their execs earn - they don't need to know to be honest - but it is a tricky subject.

[Gargamel]

If they aren't delivering the work, refusing to go on business trips and still being paid as much as you, then it sounds like they are managing you, not the other way round.

Get a grip, set some clear expectations with this individual and manage them to those expectations.

Companies with a complete indefinite pay freeze worry me. Giving "promotions" without additional pay also worries me. I would be thinking seriously about whether this business is sustainable.

[98elise]

Countdown said:

98elise said:

If you don't know what your team earn how do you budget? How do you recruit?

How do you determine pay rises, bonuses if you don't know what salary they are on. What happens if someone on your team believes they are underpaid and wants a rise?

Not all Managers are “budget holders”. For example in our place it’s the department Head who would make decisions about pay, bonuses, recruitment etc. 1st level line managers (possibly aka team leaders or supervisors) tend to be responsible for making sure day-to-day stuff gets done.

I would agree with that but I wouldn't think of team leaders and supervisors as managers. As you say thats mainly about local direction and control of others.

[anonymous-user]

NDA said:

TheAngryDog said:

I do two roles in my company; I look after the IT and I manage a small team of people / manage client services.

I have some questions that are bugging me.

1) should I know how much my team are paid?
2) would you be annoyed if you knew how much a team member who you manage was paid and it is the same as yours? Now I realise this isn't necessarily something to be annoyed about as sometimes the person has a specialist job, which I would gladly accept, except this guy was employed to do a certain role but always comes up with reasons why he can't fulfill that aspect. He is also absolutely useless.

Cheers.

It's a thorny subject.... I have run two companies with two different policies.

In the first one, only one person set salaries and managed reviews (the CEO), the managers occasionally wanted to know what their team members earned, but were never told. It worked very well - there was no pressure to increase salaries and people were happy.

In the second, there was a culture of managers knowing and, by osmosis, everyone in the company then knew what everyone else was earning. It was chaotic.

I am always slightly anxious that you get power bases being built when managers 'need to know' what their execs earn - they don't need to know to be honest - but it is a tricky subject.

That is cultural, when I worked in Germany it was very clear and transparent what everyone earned dependent upon their level / grade. I earned more than my manager and my N+1, simply because I was on an expat contract, everyone knew this, as did the team; salary, bonus and %'s were openly discussed and it caused no friction nor animosity because it is the way its done. Although we did have issues with the transnational aspect, in Germany the comparable salary was 100k (euro) + bonus Vs appx 40k (euro) + bonus in Spain, this did cause some "friction".

In the UK it is all smoke and mirrors with people being paid half of others simply because it is not open and transparent, obviously there is a vested interest of the company to keep it this way as it supresses both the basic pay and annual % payrises; until the culture of openly discussing salary changes and subsequently the facility for a business to align individuals pay it will always be a difficult topic.

To come back to the OP, just because you are a manager doesn't directly mean you should be paid more, if you are salaried and work additional hours then your salary covers that; although if you believe there is a clear gap in terms of responsibility, capability and performance take that evidence to your management team and discuss the aspect of you receiving a pay rise but I wouldn't reference the salary of the employee in question.

[NDA]

Lord.Vader said:

In the UK it is all smoke and mirrors with people being paid half of others simply because it is not open and transparent, obviously there is a vested interest of the company to keep it this way as it supresses both the basic pay and annual % payrises; until the culture of openly discussing salary changes and subsequently the facility for a business to align individuals pay it will always be a difficult topic.

I guess it also depends on the company and type of business... in some businesses there is not a standard pay for a particular job, salaries are negotiated by the employee and employer. If the employee doesn't like his/her pay, then they can leave. Having total transparency of everyone's (supposedly) private income, does lead to issues.