Alfa 105 GT Junior - Gearbox a metal symphony of woe
Discussion
Hi All,
I'm still plodding away on my Alfa 105 project in the background. I was looking for a little advice.
I know that I have had a leak from the clutch slave cylinder, though initially I diagnosed it as a split hose (it turns out that it was split, as well as the slave cylinder leaking).
After initially changing the hose, servicing the brakes and tidying up the wiring system, I treated myself to a 10 minute ride around the block as a "well done" for getting this far. All went well and I then parked the car up for a couple of months.
On returning to the car last week I noticed that with the engine on I couldn't put the car into gear, even with the clutch pedal down. The sensible thing was to put the new clutch slave cylinder on, which I did. The actuator seems to work at it pushes the clutch fork as it should and it is fully bled.
I initially thought this might be the clutch sticking to the flywheel so I tried the "stick it in gear and turn the starter" method in order to break the weld between the two. This doesn't seem to have worked.
Worryingly, I can put the car in 4th gear with the engine running and, other than a LOT of horrible noise, with the clutch let out it does seem to want to move forward. To what speed I don't know, and I don't want to find out. I can't put it in 1st gear or reverse though.
Here is the horrible noise in all of it's glory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMAlDTYcud4 (apologies for the mess of the interior, that comes next!)
Any thoughts are welcome. I do have a spare 2000cc engine with a gearbox attached, but this is in my "new" house in storage, and whilst the house is being refurbished I can't get to it!
Will
I'm still plodding away on my Alfa 105 project in the background. I was looking for a little advice.
I know that I have had a leak from the clutch slave cylinder, though initially I diagnosed it as a split hose (it turns out that it was split, as well as the slave cylinder leaking).
After initially changing the hose, servicing the brakes and tidying up the wiring system, I treated myself to a 10 minute ride around the block as a "well done" for getting this far. All went well and I then parked the car up for a couple of months.
On returning to the car last week I noticed that with the engine on I couldn't put the car into gear, even with the clutch pedal down. The sensible thing was to put the new clutch slave cylinder on, which I did. The actuator seems to work at it pushes the clutch fork as it should and it is fully bled.
I initially thought this might be the clutch sticking to the flywheel so I tried the "stick it in gear and turn the starter" method in order to break the weld between the two. This doesn't seem to have worked.
Worryingly, I can put the car in 4th gear with the engine running and, other than a LOT of horrible noise, with the clutch let out it does seem to want to move forward. To what speed I don't know, and I don't want to find out. I can't put it in 1st gear or reverse though.
Here is the horrible noise in all of it's glory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMAlDTYcud4 (apologies for the mess of the interior, that comes next!)
Any thoughts are welcome. I do have a spare 2000cc engine with a gearbox attached, but this is in my "new" house in storage, and whilst the house is being refurbished I can't get to it!
Will
If it was driving fine before (you said you manage a 10 minute drive after you changed the hose), are you sure you've completely bled the system? It's quite tricky as you need the bleed nipple rotated to the top of the slave to get all the air out, and at that point, there isn't as much room to work.
I sometime reverse bleed these with a pump hand soap dispenser with a length of pipe attached - push fluid up from the slave.
I don't know much about Alfa gearbox internals, but a few years ago my Daihatsu Fourtrak gearbox failed with exactly the same symptoms you describe - I had a working 4th gear (hi and low - so I could drive it to the garage!). The reason for this (according to the garage) is that 4th gear wasn't actually a gear as such but a direct connection from the motor to the drive train. Maybe some other manufacturers are the same?
I sometime reverse bleed these with a pump hand soap dispenser with a length of pipe attached - push fluid up from the slave.
I don't know much about Alfa gearbox internals, but a few years ago my Daihatsu Fourtrak gearbox failed with exactly the same symptoms you describe - I had a working 4th gear (hi and low - so I could drive it to the garage!). The reason for this (according to the garage) is that 4th gear wasn't actually a gear as such but a direct connection from the motor to the drive train. Maybe some other manufacturers are the same?
Sounds like the clutch actuating lever has come off its pivot, the release bearing has broken up or the clutch has failed to me. Symptoms and sound suggest clutch over gearbox, possibly even the friction lining has come off the driven plate and the driven pate is spinning in the lining.
There is no logical failure for a gearbox when left - it's a meshed set of gears and they can be left, unused, for decades and still work fine. It's much more likely to be the moving components of the clutch, particularly as these were the last bits worked on. If I was forced to guess I would say the friction lining stuck in the months after your last drive and something has failed when you initially pushed the clutch to try disengaging drive ready to select gear. You now can't get a gear as the clutch won't disengage owing to the mechanism not working properly.
There isn't a great deal more diagnosing you can do without getting underneath and looking. Can you select all gears in the box with the engine off? If you can the box is likely to be absolutely fine.
There is no logical failure for a gearbox when left - it's a meshed set of gears and they can be left, unused, for decades and still work fine. It's much more likely to be the moving components of the clutch, particularly as these were the last bits worked on. If I was forced to guess I would say the friction lining stuck in the months after your last drive and something has failed when you initially pushed the clutch to try disengaging drive ready to select gear. You now can't get a gear as the clutch won't disengage owing to the mechanism not working properly.
There isn't a great deal more diagnosing you can do without getting underneath and looking. Can you select all gears in the box with the engine off? If you can the box is likely to be absolutely fine.
Hhmm, lets look at each thing in turn.
It drove OK without any obvious problems?
You parked it up for a "couple" of months? I would have thought two months wouldn't have caused the clutch plate to stick to the flywheel. I've have it years ago on an Imp engine and it was a real struggle to free it but did using a similar method to you except I started the car in gear, drove it to warm everything up then started heavy braking.
So discounting the clutch stuck, you've replaced the flexi and slave. As another poster has said did you get ALL the air out and also did you use fresh fluid not old stuff off the shelf? (Like the idea of back bleeding with a hand pump - ingenious if it works.).
Would be a strange coincidence if the spigot bearing has failed. The one in my Volvo 940 has been squeeling for the last 45k miles at least but only on take up of the drive and not a racket like your video.
If you start it up out of gear it runs OK with no drive? In gear it tries to move but only in 4th?? As another poster has said 4th is probably a direct drive through the gearbox, 1,2,3 are not, they use the various cogs in there. Does it drive in 1,2,3 or reverse?
First thing is to redo the clutch fluid/slave/flexi and also try to see if you've disturbed the actuator arm.
Another thought just occurred, the slave and the rod out of it: are they identical? Has the new slave pushed the arm further that it should have, knocking it off its mount or disturbing the release bearing. If the rod is too long it may also have pressed the centre of the pressure plate beyond it's normal limit. If the release bearing, pressure plate and friction plate are old, have they just been strained by the new slave/fluid?
Has a damper spring been dislodged in the friction plate?
I'm trying to eliminate a gearbox problem as like the spigot bearing it's a bit of an unlikely coincidence.
Good luck, I'm no Alfa mech as I've never had one but I've had RWD cars all my life (now 65) so have had my share of clutch quandaries.
One of the best was in an Imp, the gearbox/transaxle tried to separate itself from the engine and the centre of the friction plate tore out under the strain as the two items came out of alignment. So there I was stuck 20+ miles from home and just down the road was a travellers encampment......
It drove OK without any obvious problems?
You parked it up for a "couple" of months? I would have thought two months wouldn't have caused the clutch plate to stick to the flywheel. I've have it years ago on an Imp engine and it was a real struggle to free it but did using a similar method to you except I started the car in gear, drove it to warm everything up then started heavy braking.
So discounting the clutch stuck, you've replaced the flexi and slave. As another poster has said did you get ALL the air out and also did you use fresh fluid not old stuff off the shelf? (Like the idea of back bleeding with a hand pump - ingenious if it works.).
Would be a strange coincidence if the spigot bearing has failed. The one in my Volvo 940 has been squeeling for the last 45k miles at least but only on take up of the drive and not a racket like your video.
If you start it up out of gear it runs OK with no drive? In gear it tries to move but only in 4th?? As another poster has said 4th is probably a direct drive through the gearbox, 1,2,3 are not, they use the various cogs in there. Does it drive in 1,2,3 or reverse?
First thing is to redo the clutch fluid/slave/flexi and also try to see if you've disturbed the actuator arm.
Another thought just occurred, the slave and the rod out of it: are they identical? Has the new slave pushed the arm further that it should have, knocking it off its mount or disturbing the release bearing. If the rod is too long it may also have pressed the centre of the pressure plate beyond it's normal limit. If the release bearing, pressure plate and friction plate are old, have they just been strained by the new slave/fluid?
Has a damper spring been dislodged in the friction plate?
I'm trying to eliminate a gearbox problem as like the spigot bearing it's a bit of an unlikely coincidence.
Good luck, I'm no Alfa mech as I've never had one but I've had RWD cars all my life (now 65) so have had my share of clutch quandaries.
One of the best was in an Imp, the gearbox/transaxle tried to separate itself from the engine and the centre of the friction plate tore out under the strain as the two items came out of alignment. So there I was stuck 20+ miles from home and just down the road was a travellers encampment......
Thank you all for your comments.
I am starting to think that it might be the release bearing which might be in a few parts.
Has anyone had any experience of doing the clutch on one of these whilst the engine remains in the car? It's a small single garage and the front of the car is facing in, so I'd rather not tip the engine to remove it (especially as directly outside of the garage door is quite a steep hill!).
Will
I am starting to think that it might be the release bearing which might be in a few parts.
Has anyone had any experience of doing the clutch on one of these whilst the engine remains in the car? It's a small single garage and the front of the car is facing in, so I'd rather not tip the engine to remove it (especially as directly outside of the garage door is quite a steep hill!).
Will
poordecisions said:
Thank you all for your comments.
I am starting to think that it might be the release bearing which might be in a few parts.
Has anyone had any experience of doing the clutch on one of these whilst the engine remains in the car? It's a small single garage and the front of the car is facing in, so I'd rather not tip the engine to remove it (especially as directly outside of the garage door is quite a steep hill!).
Will
I've done this in a single garage - drove the front up on ramps, then lifted the back end up with a forklift (appreciate not everybody has this, but you could jack the back end up). You need also to jack the front of the engine up a bit to get the bell-housing out, otherwise it fouls on the body. I think we took some pics. If I can find them I'll post them. I am starting to think that it might be the release bearing which might be in a few parts.
Has anyone had any experience of doing the clutch on one of these whilst the engine remains in the car? It's a small single garage and the front of the car is facing in, so I'd rather not tip the engine to remove it (especially as directly outside of the garage door is quite a steep hill!).
Will
Sorry to hear of the gearbox woes.
I also swapped out my 105's original box for a short ratioed racing box myself but I did have the added luxury of a set of ramps in my garage.
Nonetheless it is doable. You will need to entirely slacken off the engine mounts though and jack the engine (i used a regular jack and some wood as spacers/load spreading) from the sump and you are trying to bring the engine upwards and forwards to allow the bellhousing adequate clearance.
I did the job myself and to help me with the load I rigged up a rudimentary pulley system through the gear stick hole using some more wood and polyprop rope.
I'll not lie to you, it's a bugger of a job to do but hugely satisfying once complete.
I also recommend ordering some replacement studs for the bellhousing/block connection as, try as i might, i could not remove the box without bending a couple. They're not much at all from Alfaholics.
I also swapped out my 105's original box for a short ratioed racing box myself but I did have the added luxury of a set of ramps in my garage.
Nonetheless it is doable. You will need to entirely slacken off the engine mounts though and jack the engine (i used a regular jack and some wood as spacers/load spreading) from the sump and you are trying to bring the engine upwards and forwards to allow the bellhousing adequate clearance.
I did the job myself and to help me with the load I rigged up a rudimentary pulley system through the gear stick hole using some more wood and polyprop rope.
I'll not lie to you, it's a bugger of a job to do but hugely satisfying once complete.
I also recommend ordering some replacement studs for the bellhousing/block connection as, try as i might, i could not remove the box without bending a couple. They're not much at all from Alfaholics.
Before you take the box out just check again that the actuating arm is travelling the correct distance. Recently replaced slave cylinder on neighbour's Alfa that had exact same problem. The extra distance that it moved wasn't much but made all the difference. It also required bleeding with a high pressure Gunson easibleed.
Just an update on this (many years later).
It transpires it was a broken clutch spring which was scoring the pressure plate.
I managed to get the engine out of the car whilst leaving the gearbox in, replaced the clutch, plate and bearing (from the 2l engine I have in the garage) and fit it.
What I found amazing is that from engine on a hoist to installed and working took less than 3 hours.
That job took me a weekend in the Porsche 944 I used to have...
Will
It transpires it was a broken clutch spring which was scoring the pressure plate.
I managed to get the engine out of the car whilst leaving the gearbox in, replaced the clutch, plate and bearing (from the 2l engine I have in the garage) and fit it.
What I found amazing is that from engine on a hoist to installed and working took less than 3 hours.
That job took me a weekend in the Porsche 944 I used to have...
Will
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