E-type engine issues
Discussion
My e-type series 1 4.2 which is 1000 miles out of a full nut and bolt rebuild is suffering a fault the specialist have been unable to rectify. Under load the car hesitates badly and misfires. The carbs had muck in them which they originally thought was contamination from the fuel tank but it wasn’t. They put other carbs on and its not the carbs at fault. They now found water condensation coming out of the breather causing contamination in the carbs. They removed the cylinder head and re skimmed to see if that would stop the water in the breather pipe. This didn’t work. So they have disconnected the breather and they said that it would run smoothly until they come up with a solution for the water. After driving it back today from them I was dismayed that the same problem is still there. Any ideas?
My e-type series 1 4.2 which is 1000 miles out of a full nut and bolt rebuild is suffering a fault the specialist have been unable to rectify. Under load the car hesitates badly and misfires. The carbs had muck in them which they originally thought was contamination from the fuel tank but it wasn’t. They put other carbs on and its not the carbs at fault. They now found water condensation coming out of the breather causing contamination in the carbs. They removed the cylinder head and re skimmed to see if that would stop the water in the breather pipe. This didn’t work. So they have disconnected the breather and they said that it would run smoothly until they come up with a solution for the water. After driving it back today from them I was dismayed that the same problem is still there. Any ideas?
Without some better info it will be hard to diagnose remotely.
ie someone who can inspect/test the ignition system, fuel system, record either via a wideband or gas analyser to try and determine exactly what is happening etc.
I wont generically say go to a rolling road..as that is simply a tool and the most important factor will be the operator, rather than the tools used.
Whilst not local, I'd say this would be right up Peter Burgess's street who will hopefully appear on this thread.
ie someone who can inspect/test the ignition system, fuel system, record either via a wideband or gas analyser to try and determine exactly what is happening etc.
I wont generically say go to a rolling road..as that is simply a tool and the most important factor will be the operator, rather than the tools used.
Whilst not local, I'd say this would be right up Peter Burgess's street who will hopefully appear on this thread.
Jonny TVR said:
Under load the car hesitates badly and misfires.
Does the problem occur every time load is applied, or only intermittently?Having to be under load will make it inconvenient to diagnose but you could use a passive strobe timing light in series with an HT lead to see whether the spark strength is consistent and a WB02 at the tail pipe to see whether the mixture is varying significantly in the lead up to the misfire.
I guess the distributor uses vacuum advance and if so it would be worth checking that is attached correctly to the base plate and working, and eyeball the alignment between the rotor arm and the HT posts with the vac advance in the 'load' position.
Too much guess work for me.
Ignition side, go through all connections, if all good start replacing with other leads/cap/rotor arm/coil/distributor. Even as daft as checking advance is near enough correct. Daftest thing I have seen is intermittent needles falling out of carb piston then going back in place!
Fuel, as Dave says, pump. Could also check the fuel lines haven't been chewed up with bits of fuel hose reducing fuel flow by being stuck in entrance to float chamber. Float height.
The list is fairly endless.
as Stevie says, get it on some rollers and see if the problem can be replicated then isolated.
Peter
Ignition side, go through all connections, if all good start replacing with other leads/cap/rotor arm/coil/distributor. Even as daft as checking advance is near enough correct. Daftest thing I have seen is intermittent needles falling out of carb piston then going back in place!
Fuel, as Dave says, pump. Could also check the fuel lines haven't been chewed up with bits of fuel hose reducing fuel flow by being stuck in entrance to float chamber. Float height.
The list is fairly endless.
as Stevie says, get it on some rollers and see if the problem can be replicated then isolated.
Peter
Jonny TVR said:
My e-type series 1 4.2 which is 1000 miles out of a full nut and bolt rebuild is suffering a fault the specialist have been unable to rectify. Under load the car hesitates badly and misfires. The carbs had muck in them which they originally thought was contamination from the fuel tank but it wasn’t. They put other carbs on and its not the carbs at fault. They now found water condensation coming out of the breather causing contamination in the carbs. They removed the cylinder head and re skimmed to see if that would stop the water in the breather pipe. This didn’t work. So they have disconnected the breather and they said that it would run smoothly until they come up with a solution for the water. After driving it back today from them I was dismayed that the same problem is still there. Any ideas?
I've had a few older cars with similar issues and usually found the electrics as the culprit, timing, weak spark etc. Although the condensation is clearly a worry they might be separate issues.D
Condensation in an engine is not unusual. A byproduct of burning petrol - or diesel - is a considerable amount of water.
Manifests by dripping out of the exhaust pipe & on short journey cars frequently as mayo in the oil filler cap as the engine doesn't get hot enough to boil it off. I sometimes wonder how many have had their trousers pulled down by the unscrupulous telling them that it's a surefire indicator that their head gasket has gone.
You'll also find that cars used only for short journeys go through exhausts quicker than those that do long journeys. Same reason, the exhaust doesn't get hot enough to boil the water off & it rots out.
Some Bosal silencers come with a very small hole at the lowest point & I've done that on some of our own cars. Never had any emissions issues & silencers last longer. Surprising how much comes out.
If you aren't losing coolant than you don't have a coolant leak problem.
From my own experience - and that of others - on the V8 as used in LR & RRC I can say that some engines simply don't like pattern ignition system parts.
I had to use a pattern dizzy cap on my own & it promptly developed an intermittent misfire at speed & under load - worse in the wet. Fitting a genuine cap cleared it up completely. There were significant differences between the two.
I know someone who did a full service on his RRC. (Not me on this occasion!) Serious misfire started & despite throwing £600 at it it didn't get any better. In desperation he refitted the components he had removed at the original service. Refitting the old rotor arm restored normal service. He'd discounted the new one as being an issue because it was brand new. Again, it was a pattern part & those rotor arms on the market that have the metal strip riveted to the arm should not be used. The right ones have the strip moulded in.
Whether this has any relevance to your problem I don't know, but there are some truly awful aftermarket parts about & I've no doubt that applies to Jaguar stuff as well.
Manifests by dripping out of the exhaust pipe & on short journey cars frequently as mayo in the oil filler cap as the engine doesn't get hot enough to boil it off. I sometimes wonder how many have had their trousers pulled down by the unscrupulous telling them that it's a surefire indicator that their head gasket has gone.
You'll also find that cars used only for short journeys go through exhausts quicker than those that do long journeys. Same reason, the exhaust doesn't get hot enough to boil the water off & it rots out.
Some Bosal silencers come with a very small hole at the lowest point & I've done that on some of our own cars. Never had any emissions issues & silencers last longer. Surprising how much comes out.
If you aren't losing coolant than you don't have a coolant leak problem.
From my own experience - and that of others - on the V8 as used in LR & RRC I can say that some engines simply don't like pattern ignition system parts.
I had to use a pattern dizzy cap on my own & it promptly developed an intermittent misfire at speed & under load - worse in the wet. Fitting a genuine cap cleared it up completely. There were significant differences between the two.
I know someone who did a full service on his RRC. (Not me on this occasion!) Serious misfire started & despite throwing £600 at it it didn't get any better. In desperation he refitted the components he had removed at the original service. Refitting the old rotor arm restored normal service. He'd discounted the new one as being an issue because it was brand new. Again, it was a pattern part & those rotor arms on the market that have the metal strip riveted to the arm should not be used. The right ones have the strip moulded in.
Whether this has any relevance to your problem I don't know, but there are some truly awful aftermarket parts about & I've no doubt that applies to Jaguar stuff as well.
Edited by paintman on Tuesday 31st July 22:34
paintman said:
Condensation in an engine is not unusual. A byproduct of burning petrol - or diesel - is a considerable amount of water.
Manifests by dripping out of the exhaust pipe & on short journey cars frequently as mayo in the oil filler cap as the engine doesn't get hot enough to boil it off. I sometimes wonder how many have had their trousers pulled down by the unscrupulous telling them that it's a surefire indicator that their head gasket has gone.
You'll also find that cars used only for short journeys go through exhausts quicker than those that do long journeys. Same reason, the exhaust doesn't get hot enough to boil the water off & it rots out.
Some Bosal silencers come with a very small hole at the lowest point & I've done that on some of our own cars. Never had any emissions issues & silencers last longer. Surprising how much comes out.
If you aren't losing coolant than you don't have a coolant leak problem.
From my own experience - and that of others - on the V8 as used in LR & RRC I can say that some engines simply don't like pattern ignition system parts.
I had to use a pattern dizzy cap on my own & it promptly developed an intermittent misfire at speed & under load - worse in the wet. Fitting a genuine cap cleared it up completely. There were significant differences between the two.
I know someone who did a full service on his RRC. (Not me on this occasion!) Serious misfire started & despite throwing £600 at it it didn't get any better. In desperation he refitted the components he had removed at the original service. Refitting the old rotor arm restored normal service. He'd discounted the new one as being an issue because it was brand new. Again, it was a pattern part & those rotor arms on the market that have the metal strip riveted to the arm should not be used. The right ones have the strip moulded in.
Whether this has any relevance to your problem I don't know, but there are some truly awful aftermarket parts about & I've no doubt that applies to Jaguar stuff as well.
Thank you paintman. Water being a normal by product is something I have learnt about for the first time this week. I won't be using the "specialist" I used again, certainly a lesson learnt. Manifests by dripping out of the exhaust pipe & on short journey cars frequently as mayo in the oil filler cap as the engine doesn't get hot enough to boil it off. I sometimes wonder how many have had their trousers pulled down by the unscrupulous telling them that it's a surefire indicator that their head gasket has gone.
You'll also find that cars used only for short journeys go through exhausts quicker than those that do long journeys. Same reason, the exhaust doesn't get hot enough to boil the water off & it rots out.
Some Bosal silencers come with a very small hole at the lowest point & I've done that on some of our own cars. Never had any emissions issues & silencers last longer. Surprising how much comes out.
If you aren't losing coolant than you don't have a coolant leak problem.
From my own experience - and that of others - on the V8 as used in LR & RRC I can say that some engines simply don't like pattern ignition system parts.
I had to use a pattern dizzy cap on my own & it promptly developed an intermittent misfire at speed & under load - worse in the wet. Fitting a genuine cap cleared it up completely. There were significant differences between the two.
I know someone who did a full service on his RRC. (Not me on this occasion!) Serious misfire started & despite throwing £600 at it it didn't get any better. In desperation he refitted the components he had removed at the original service. Refitting the old rotor arm restored normal service. He'd discounted the new one as being an issue because it was brand new. Again, it was a pattern part & those rotor arms on the market that have the metal strip riveted to the arm should not be used. The right ones have the strip moulded in.
Whether this has any relevance to your problem I don't know, but there are some truly awful aftermarket parts about & I've no doubt that applies to Jaguar stuff as well.
Edited by paintman on Tuesday 31st July 22:34
Its a good point on the original components. If the new sparks don't fix the problem today then I will be going that route I think. Although it was running really well before the service on the electronic ignition so possibly not.
1000 miles, but how much time? - I would be looking at fuel. Full throttle means you are drinking lots of fuel, so anything loose in the tank can get picked up and pumped through, blocking the carbs. You mention you are not overly happy with the specialists, did they use the petrol pipes that cannot cope with ethanol?
Just a thought!
Just a thought!
Jonny TVR said:
My e-type series 1 4.2 which is 1000 miles out of a full nut and bolt rebuild is suffering a fault the specialist have been unable to rectify. Under load the car hesitates badly and misfires. The carbs had muck in them which they originally thought was contamination from the fuel tank but it wasn’t. They put other carbs on and its not the carbs at fault. They now found water condensation coming out of the breather causing contamination in the carbs. They removed the cylinder head and re skimmed to see if that would stop the water in the breather pipe.
They are idiots. Fuel is a hydrocarbon. Atoms of C and H. The C burns with oxygen to produce CO and CO2. The H burns with O to produce water. Every gallon of fuel burned produces one gallon of water, most of which disappears out of the exhaust pipe. A bit ends up in the block and comes out of the breather as vapour. It is inconceivable that anyone who works with cars for a living doesn't know this. In any case the breather shouldn't be routed anywhere it could get water into the carb float bowls.Jonny TVR said:
This didn’t work.
No S*** Sherlock. What any extraordinary waste of time and money.Jonny TVR said:
So they have disconnected the breather and they said that it would run smoothly until they come up with a solution for the water. After driving it back today from them I was dismayed that the same problem is still there. Any ideas?
This is a trivial problem on what is basically an agricultural engine by today's standards. No complex electrickery and ecus to worry about. A chimp could sort it out. I was going to say even Donald Trump could sort it out but thought better of that and I'll stick with the chimp. Check the fuel pump output into a jar. It should be at least 3 pints per minute for an engine of that power. If the engine and carbs are standard so you don't have to worry about incorrect jetting then it's vanishingly unlikely to be those and anyway they tried another set. It's also vanishingly unlikely to be ignition if it starts ok and runs fine except under high load and the plugs are gapped correctly. It certainly isn't the non resistor plugs. The ignition system won't give a rat's arse about those.A quid gets me 10 it's the fuel pump. If not then get back to us.
Fixed one not long ago that had a similar issue.
It was the Dizzy Cap (broken/arching)
and the coil was the wrong spec. If its really hot it isn't correct,
Other issues can be.
Leads, they can arc when old/wet. (Could be this)
Fuel Filter and d Pump (unlikely)
Vaporising Fuel in the line that runs under the chassis, most have been moved to the other side of the chassis leg away from the exhaust.
That's about it. The Garage diagnosis was random....find a new Garage.
It was the Dizzy Cap (broken/arching)
and the coil was the wrong spec. If its really hot it isn't correct,
Other issues can be.
Leads, they can arc when old/wet. (Could be this)
Fuel Filter and d Pump (unlikely)
Vaporising Fuel in the line that runs under the chassis, most have been moved to the other side of the chassis leg away from the exhaust.
That's about it. The Garage diagnosis was random....find a new Garage.
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