eSports Shows - Do You Watch Them?
Discussion
Morning All!
I've recently been made a producer of a Sim Racing eSports series. I'm not a massive gamer, though I do own most of Codemasters F1 output!
Just trying to understand our audience a little so trying to find out why people watch and what they like about it? Any advice you can offer would be most helpful!
I've recently been made a producer of a Sim Racing eSports series. I'm not a massive gamer, though I do own most of Codemasters F1 output!
Just trying to understand our audience a little so trying to find out why people watch and what they like about it? Any advice you can offer would be most helpful!
Not as much as I'd like. Way, way too much talking and 'analysis'.
I understand there are gaps in action while teams change over but it seems to go on forever.
In addition, whilst most of the commentators are pretty good, some are way too over-enthusiastic and jarring to listen to. Think David Croft.
Sounds like you've landed a cool job. Good luck with it. Just bear in mind gamers have pretty strong opinions!
I understand there are gaps in action while teams change over but it seems to go on forever.
In addition, whilst most of the commentators are pretty good, some are way too over-enthusiastic and jarring to listen to. Think David Croft.
Sounds like you've landed a cool job. Good luck with it. Just bear in mind gamers have pretty strong opinions!
I've watched a fair bit of e-sports. In terms of why i watch it and what i like about it, i'd say it's fairly similar to any other sport in as much as it's both an opportunity to see a game I enjoy being played to a high standard, plus you can end up supporting particular players/teams.
The downside is that certain games, particularly FPS', don't lend themselves to being watched as there're multiple points of action all over the place at any given moment. Whereas something like Hearthstone is at the opposite end of the spectrum and the camera never moves. You should be able to find a nice balance with a racing sim.
I also think that for the most part the players are far more interesting to listen to than those from more traditional sports. They either say what they think or err towards confidence. For example, ask a player how they think they'll fair against the three other teams in their pool and they may well say 'we should beat Team A and B easy enough, but Team C will be the difficult match'.
Ask the same question of a footballer and it'll be 'they're all though matches and we'll take each game as it comes'. Or some other similar non-answer.
Unfortunately most professional sportsfolk have been media trained into politicians and are about as interesting to interview. E-sports needs to avoid a similar fate at all costs!
The downside is that certain games, particularly FPS', don't lend themselves to being watched as there're multiple points of action all over the place at any given moment. Whereas something like Hearthstone is at the opposite end of the spectrum and the camera never moves. You should be able to find a nice balance with a racing sim.
I also think that for the most part the players are far more interesting to listen to than those from more traditional sports. They either say what they think or err towards confidence. For example, ask a player how they think they'll fair against the three other teams in their pool and they may well say 'we should beat Team A and B easy enough, but Team C will be the difficult match'.
Ask the same question of a footballer and it'll be 'they're all though matches and we'll take each game as it comes'. Or some other similar non-answer.
Unfortunately most professional sportsfolk have been media trained into politicians and are about as interesting to interview. E-sports needs to avoid a similar fate at all costs!
The Final race of 2017 is here if anyone fancies a watch.
The 2 leading racers, Smidl & Stefanko were selected for the F1 Haas eSports Team.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5ceatliAKg
The 2 leading racers, Smidl & Stefanko were selected for the F1 Haas eSports Team.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5ceatliAKg
H18 ENF said:
PulsatingStar said:
I do watch some of them. Generally I find I need to have played the game a fair amount to watch a show on it though. Actually I watch (or have on in the background) more than I actually play the games these days.
So what is it you watch for? What interests you?It's a bit like people who watch live streaming on Twitch, not something I do myself but there a lot of people out there who do, so many so that some streamers are able to do it as a job!
I've recently got myself a little hooked on Rocket League and their e-sports series is pretty big, I missed it this year but I can see myself watching it next year as I've already watched plenty of replays on YT. When you play the game yourself and then watch 'pro's' play they really are in a different league. Games get pretty tense as well, especially when they tie and go into overtime where its first to score wins.
This years final if you want to have a look at what i'm on about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ny3yw4YVIhU
I do like a pro Rocket League match. When I used to play League I would watch quite a bit of the LCS and Worlds, but completely lost interest in the game now.
I've always followed the Fighting Game Community, and will try to catch some of EVO this weekend (http://evo.shoryuken.com/).
Recently I don't have a ton of time so if I do have a bit spare I might just jump on Twitch and see if there is anything interesting going on. I find that the commentary makes or breaks esports (NB: no big S in esports), and despite how hard it is to cover FPS', CS:GO has some of the best commentary around.
I've always followed the Fighting Game Community, and will try to catch some of EVO this weekend (http://evo.shoryuken.com/).
Recently I don't have a ton of time so if I do have a bit spare I might just jump on Twitch and see if there is anything interesting going on. I find that the commentary makes or breaks esports (NB: no big S in esports), and despite how hard it is to cover FPS', CS:GO has some of the best commentary around.
At least with a racing game you have the advantage if knowing where the competitors will be going, so can predict the shots etc. Something like PUBG has action all over the place, tricky live but good for a replay/as live delay.
So pretty much the same as normal TV coverage I suppose, but hopefully not just showing #1 going round and round like the F1 coverage I remember, and showing the ding ding battle for 10th like the BTCC coverage. I would rather see the action than just the winners
Good commentators needed if course.
So pretty much the same as normal TV coverage I suppose, but hopefully not just showing #1 going round and round like the F1 coverage I remember, and showing the ding ding battle for 10th like the BTCC coverage. I would rather see the action than just the winners
Good commentators needed if course.
H18 ENF said:
The Final race of 2017 is here if anyone fancies a watch.
The 2 leading racers, Smidl & Stefanko were selected for the F1 Haas eSports Team.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5ceatliAKg
I thought that was good. My only observation is that the camera angles are copying real F1 footage which are by necessity a compromise. There must be some better ways to show the action, like a drone shot looking back on two cars battling for example, when you don't have a real camera to worry about. Probably a better inspiration would be F1 teams' promo clips where they are free to use more creative shots.The 2 leading racers, Smidl & Stefanko were selected for the F1 Haas eSports Team.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5ceatliAKg
m1dg3 said:
I thought that was good. My only observation is that the camera angles are copying real F1 footage which are by necessity a compromise. There must be some better ways to show the action, like a drone shot looking back on two cars battling for example, when you don't have a real camera to worry about. Probably a better inspiration would be F1 teams' promo clips where they are free to use more creative shots.
Thanks for watching it.The camera angles are largely governed by the in game controls and to a large degree are actually automated. There is the option to go 'freehand' but at the moment, despite a team of 6 in the production office during live races, we don't have a cameraman free to operate it. It's definitely something to consider implementing in the future though. Thanks for the feedback
Interestingly on the topic of cameras I watched the the link above and found the cameras to be very disorienting, found it very difficult to get my bearings to begin with. The arena was good though!
Messy download ahead:
I've watched hundreds of ours of Competitive Counter Strike.
ESL - Intel Extreme Masters and so on. Group stages that lead to a stadium based two day events for the finals.
These guys are excellent at it.
They do attempt to consider that not all of their audience will have watched everything and know everything about the sport. They have managed to secure some brilliant commentator duo and analyst desk teams.
I don't really have capacity to watch live so I watch the entire event on a youtube playlist after I have hidden from the results on social media etc. So a really good playlist setup with the FIRST match as the start of the playlist rather than the finals which auto means you know who didn't make it through etc.
I'd suggest you watch YouTube of ESL CS:Go. 2018 IEM Katowice playlist to see how it is done.
I hear what people are saying about FPS not being easy for the camera to keep up with the points of action but they have dedicated "Observer" roles that are highly experienced in doing the camera work and flipping between third person view, first person, plan view etc.
Why do I watch it? I know the players, I know the teams. I have learned all about them and their journeys. I have played enough so that I really do appreciate how much better they are than regular players. I've decided who the favourites are and the underdogs. The reputation of the American teams as being good (ish) but always failing to close out and being the laughing stock and now some of them have come through to run the majors.
So like most sports I am invested in the players and the teams. The favourites and the underdogs. The come backs and the dominance and the quality of the Observer and the commentators REALLY matter.
The styles of commentators are amusing too. Some grate a bit and some really make the game. Anders and Semler and Machine etc. Pansy. All different styles. The Australian commentators are hilarious with their tongue in cheek humour.
The reason I don't watch other e-sports? I don't play the games and don't know enough about the games to realise the skill needed. Dota2? No idea what is going on so even when I want to get engaged, I am at a loss and don't care about the players or the teams.
I've watched hundreds of ours of Competitive Counter Strike.
ESL - Intel Extreme Masters and so on. Group stages that lead to a stadium based two day events for the finals.
These guys are excellent at it.
They do attempt to consider that not all of their audience will have watched everything and know everything about the sport. They have managed to secure some brilliant commentator duo and analyst desk teams.
I don't really have capacity to watch live so I watch the entire event on a youtube playlist after I have hidden from the results on social media etc. So a really good playlist setup with the FIRST match as the start of the playlist rather than the finals which auto means you know who didn't make it through etc.
I'd suggest you watch YouTube of ESL CS:Go. 2018 IEM Katowice playlist to see how it is done.
I hear what people are saying about FPS not being easy for the camera to keep up with the points of action but they have dedicated "Observer" roles that are highly experienced in doing the camera work and flipping between third person view, first person, plan view etc.
Why do I watch it? I know the players, I know the teams. I have learned all about them and their journeys. I have played enough so that I really do appreciate how much better they are than regular players. I've decided who the favourites are and the underdogs. The reputation of the American teams as being good (ish) but always failing to close out and being the laughing stock and now some of them have come through to run the majors.
So like most sports I am invested in the players and the teams. The favourites and the underdogs. The come backs and the dominance and the quality of the Observer and the commentators REALLY matter.
The styles of commentators are amusing too. Some grate a bit and some really make the game. Anders and Semler and Machine etc. Pansy. All different styles. The Australian commentators are hilarious with their tongue in cheek humour.
The reason I don't watch other e-sports? I don't play the games and don't know enough about the games to realise the skill needed. Dota2? No idea what is going on so even when I want to get engaged, I am at a loss and don't care about the players or the teams.
A long time ago I watched a lot of Starcraft and AoE2 matches. What made the broadcasts great were the commentators who knew everything about the game, tactics, community characters and most of all had genuine enthusiasm for what unfolded on screen.
These days I watch some sim racing, mostly Jimmy Broadbent's iRacing streams. Look him up, he's very passionate about it and also a great commentator.
These days I watch some sim racing, mostly Jimmy Broadbent's iRacing streams. Look him up, he's very passionate about it and also a great commentator.
H18 ENF said:
Thanks for watching it.
The camera angles are largely governed by the in game controls and to a large degree are actually automated. There is the option to go 'freehand' but at the moment, despite a team of 6 in the production office during live races, we don't have a cameraman free to operate it. It's definitely something to consider implementing in the future though. Thanks for the feedback
Interestingly on the topic of cameras I watched the the link above and found the cameras to be very disorienting, found it very difficult to get my bearings to begin with. The arena was good though!
I’m guessing you mean my RL link? If so that’s just the nature of RL and very much a part of the game when playing. As a player you have to flick between ball cam and car cam to get the best view of the ball and then control when on it. The camera angles are largely governed by the in game controls and to a large degree are actually automated. There is the option to go 'freehand' but at the moment, despite a team of 6 in the production office during live races, we don't have a cameraman free to operate it. It's definitely something to consider implementing in the future though. Thanks for the feedback
Interestingly on the topic of cameras I watched the the link above and found the cameras to be very disorienting, found it very difficult to get my bearings to begin with. The arena was good though!
Considering there are 6 cars in each game with 2 camera views then arena views on top of that, I can understand how someone new to it might be wondering what the hell is going on!
bobbo89 said:
I’m guessing you mean my RL link? If so that’s just the nature of RL and very much a part of the game when playing. As a player you have to flick between ball cam and car cam to get the best view of the ball and then control when on it.
Considering there are 6 cars in each game with 2 camera views then arena views on top of that, I can understand how someone new to it might be wondering what the hell is going on!
Yes, sorry, I meant to say it was your link! Considering there are 6 cars in each game with 2 camera views then arena views on top of that, I can understand how someone new to it might be wondering what the hell is going on!
I think that's potentially one advantage that Sim Racing Series will have over other eSports championships. There is a commonality between what the 'real world' format looks like and the game output is, making it quicker to jump into without needing to understand the game to the same level.
I'm glad that a couple of you have mentioned that you follow the players & teams themselves. This is the first thing I have tried to implement is more of a focus on who the actual drivers are, rather than just their achievements. Who they are and how they behave is one of the reasons that fans return to watch a sport time and time again. I was hoping that that would ring true in this environment too. Glad to see I'm on to something here.
H18 ENF said:
Yes, sorry, I meant to say it was your link!
I think that's potentially one advantage that Sim Racing Series will have over other eSports championships. There is a commonality between what the 'real world' format looks like and the game output is, making it quicker to jump into without needing to understand the game to the same level.
I'm glad that a couple of you have mentioned that you follow the players & teams themselves. This is the first thing I have tried to implement is more of a focus on who the actual drivers are, rather than just their achievements. Who they are and how they behave is one of the reasons that fans return to watch a sport time and time again. I was hoping that that would ring true in this environment too. Glad to see I'm on to something here.
It was the players and teams that got me even more into Rocket League and then onto being interested in eSports. It started just as quick look on YT to watch some videos on how to improve my gameplay which then had me watching a lot of videos by a guy called NeatMike. Watching his videos then lead me onto realising he was part of a team called F2 with two other YouTubers which then had me watching them playing in eSports during last years Championship. I think that's potentially one advantage that Sim Racing Series will have over other eSports championships. There is a commonality between what the 'real world' format looks like and the game output is, making it quicker to jump into without needing to understand the game to the same level.
I'm glad that a couple of you have mentioned that you follow the players & teams themselves. This is the first thing I have tried to implement is more of a focus on who the actual drivers are, rather than just their achievements. Who they are and how they behave is one of the reasons that fans return to watch a sport time and time again. I was hoping that that would ring true in this environment too. Glad to see I'm on to something here.
Since then I've found there's quite a big RL following with all the big players being on YouTube, Twitter and Instagram etc.
You're absolutely spot on trying to get more of a focus on the players/teams as wiithout having someone to support you may as well be watching a load of robots play/race!
ForzaRC seem to have the racing style down quite well.
It is very much in the American style of race presentation but a few things make it watchable to some one who plays the same game (remember you wont attract people who dont play games or that particular game).
1) Interaction - thoughout the program you achieve in game prizes like cars, driver outfits etc for completing surveys on what track they should race next and length of time watched
2) The commentators know the personalities, history and journey of the players
3) A smattering of technical advice
4) Most important a sense of humour and the odd joke about what is happening on screen. The presenters must be natural and get on with each other.
There is nothing worse than watching rabbits in headlights acting like this is there big break in bigtime broadcasting trying to be "professional". Remember this is a game not real life and the viewers are gamers/geeks above all.
You say yourself you are not a massive gamer and you are in charge of the production, try and become a little more like the kind of people you are trying to attract. What actually are your goals?
It is very much in the American style of race presentation but a few things make it watchable to some one who plays the same game (remember you wont attract people who dont play games or that particular game).
1) Interaction - thoughout the program you achieve in game prizes like cars, driver outfits etc for completing surveys on what track they should race next and length of time watched
2) The commentators know the personalities, history and journey of the players
3) A smattering of technical advice
4) Most important a sense of humour and the odd joke about what is happening on screen. The presenters must be natural and get on with each other.
There is nothing worse than watching rabbits in headlights acting like this is there big break in bigtime broadcasting trying to be "professional". Remember this is a game not real life and the viewers are gamers/geeks above all.
You say yourself you are not a massive gamer and you are in charge of the production, try and become a little more like the kind of people you are trying to attract. What actually are your goals?
The_Jackal said:
ForzaRC seem to have the racing style down quite well.
It is very much in the American style of race presentation but a few things make it watchable to some one who plays the same game (remember you wont attract people who dont play games or that particular game).
1) Interaction - thoughout the program you achieve in game prizes like cars, driver outfits etc for completing surveys on what track they should race next and length of time watched
2) The commentators know the personalities, history and journey of the players
3) A smattering of technical advice
4) Most important a sense of humour and the odd joke about what is happening on screen. The presenters must be natural and get on with each other.
There is nothing worse than watching rabbits in headlights acting like this is there big break in bigtime broadcasting trying to be "professional". Remember this is a game not real life and the viewers are gamers/geeks above all.
You say yourself you are not a massive gamer and you are in charge of the production, try and become a little more like the kind of people you are trying to attract. What actually are your goals?
There's a lot to consider in your post here.It is very much in the American style of race presentation but a few things make it watchable to some one who plays the same game (remember you wont attract people who dont play games or that particular game).
1) Interaction - thoughout the program you achieve in game prizes like cars, driver outfits etc for completing surveys on what track they should race next and length of time watched
2) The commentators know the personalities, history and journey of the players
3) A smattering of technical advice
4) Most important a sense of humour and the odd joke about what is happening on screen. The presenters must be natural and get on with each other.
There is nothing worse than watching rabbits in headlights acting like this is there big break in bigtime broadcasting trying to be "professional". Remember this is a game not real life and the viewers are gamers/geeks above all.
You say yourself you are not a massive gamer and you are in charge of the production, try and become a little more like the kind of people you are trying to attract. What actually are your goals?
I am not sure, how I feel about 'Interaction' but I agree about points 2-4.
In order to properly address the 'professional' / 'Bigtime' suggestion I shall answer your question about what are my goals.
In the 6 months of having the producer role I have already got GinX TV (Sky Channel: 470) & Amazon prime to broadcast the 2017 season and with an eye to them broadcasting the 2018 season too.
My job is always about increasing positive output and maximising broadcast potential. Broadcast can be across any medium you like but the show must be watchable both live and as a repeat. With this in mind I think that Commentators need to be professional. Indeed some of the presenter's we've had are 'Up & Coming' presenters (Matt Gallagher, WTF1 as a starting point)
Esports is a growing community and in order to join the more mainstream media it has to merge seamlessly with 'real world' broadcast content. This includes the need for it to not require an in depth knowledge of the game for the show to be watchable.
My goal is to get Virtual GP to that point, asking the eSports community about what they like and dislike is part of my growing process in order to, as you say, "become a little more like the kind of people you are trying to attract".
I shall consider the interaction element but interaction only works with live broadcasts and wouldn't work for repeats.
This thread is very useful, thanks.
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