Consumer rights used cars
Discussion
I have worked in the motor trade working for the same company for near on 30 years now (not my company just an employee). As a well respected used car sales company we try to be as fair as possible and as a result have a great reputation and loyal customer base.
I would like peoples opinions on what they think is fair and reasonable and what should be expected from a used car dealer especially this particular scenario.
Sold Mr A a 2009 53,000 mile car in Jan 2016, Mr A returns the car in May 2016 with a stalling issue and and uneven idle. We advise him to take the car to a specialist in this make for diagnosis which he does, they report a Nox sensor fault. Mr A contacts the warranty company straight away who authorises the claim for the part. Customer does not get the work done until Jan 2017 some eight months and aprox 2500miles later, the car is then MOTed 30miles later with no advisories( I presume the only reason they finally got the work done was due to the mot being required) , roll on to June 2017 customer takes the car back to the specialist reporting none starting, specialist confirms engine seized . The car has now done over 5,000 miles since purchase. Mr A then leaves the car parked on the road outside the specialist until July 2018 when he has it collected by an engine "supply and fit company" who charge him £2500 to replace the engine. No contact with us.
The supply and fit company (new company not VAT registered) do a report for him stating that the reason for engine seizing was due to the oil pump failing and in their opinion the fault was present at time of sale some 2.5 years and over 5,000 miles earlier. Mr A sends this report with a letter to his finance company who agree with him and are now requesting that we stump up the costs.
No service work was done in the time that the customer had the car ( we serviced it in Jan 2016 just prior to delivery), no oil pressure faults were ever reported by the customer or found when the specialist did there diagnostic work or when they fitted the new Nox sensor. We have not been given any opportunity to examine the car or inspect the seized engine which has now been disposed of.
I'm not looking for legal advice here or how to proceed with this I'm just interested in what your opinions are of what is right and wrong. I do feel sympathetic for Mr A its not great when something like this happens and if he had at least contacted us we would have done all we could to assist him.
Opinions please.
I would like peoples opinions on what they think is fair and reasonable and what should be expected from a used car dealer especially this particular scenario.
Sold Mr A a 2009 53,000 mile car in Jan 2016, Mr A returns the car in May 2016 with a stalling issue and and uneven idle. We advise him to take the car to a specialist in this make for diagnosis which he does, they report a Nox sensor fault. Mr A contacts the warranty company straight away who authorises the claim for the part. Customer does not get the work done until Jan 2017 some eight months and aprox 2500miles later, the car is then MOTed 30miles later with no advisories( I presume the only reason they finally got the work done was due to the mot being required) , roll on to June 2017 customer takes the car back to the specialist reporting none starting, specialist confirms engine seized . The car has now done over 5,000 miles since purchase. Mr A then leaves the car parked on the road outside the specialist until July 2018 when he has it collected by an engine "supply and fit company" who charge him £2500 to replace the engine. No contact with us.
The supply and fit company (new company not VAT registered) do a report for him stating that the reason for engine seizing was due to the oil pump failing and in their opinion the fault was present at time of sale some 2.5 years and over 5,000 miles earlier. Mr A sends this report with a letter to his finance company who agree with him and are now requesting that we stump up the costs.
No service work was done in the time that the customer had the car ( we serviced it in Jan 2016 just prior to delivery), no oil pressure faults were ever reported by the customer or found when the specialist did there diagnostic work or when they fitted the new Nox sensor. We have not been given any opportunity to examine the car or inspect the seized engine which has now been disposed of.
I'm not looking for legal advice here or how to proceed with this I'm just interested in what your opinions are of what is right and wrong. I do feel sympathetic for Mr A its not great when something like this happens and if he had at least contacted us we would have done all we could to assist him.
Opinions please.
Edited by chris52 on Thursday 2nd August 15:48
ds.You sold it in Jan 16 and the big problem was in June 17.
Customer wasn't seemingly bothered about the small fault they did tell you about but it was eventually fixed anyway.
Customer didn't service the car between Jan 16 and the big problem.
Customer is an arse.
If I were you I'd write to them to that effect and say they can jog on.
Customer wasn't seemingly bothered about the small fault they did tell you about but it was eventually fixed anyway.
Customer didn't service the car between Jan 16 and the big problem.
Customer is an arse.
If I were you I'd write to them to that effect and say they can jog on.
Whilst I agree that consumer do need rights, this is getting ridiculous!
How can that fault have been present at sale? It wouldn't have driven 5 miles with a duff oil pump let alone 5000!
Surely after those timescales, and the fact you've not inspected the car prior to (some 3rd party doing a) repair, you cannot seriously be on the hook for this can you?
How can that fault have been present at sale? It wouldn't have driven 5 miles with a duff oil pump let alone 5000!
Surely after those timescales, and the fact you've not inspected the car prior to (some 3rd party doing a) repair, you cannot seriously be on the hook for this can you?
surveyor_101 said:
I assume the owner has not missed a service?
He could have discussed the engine replacement prior but he has an independent report and the car died under warranty. Is the warranty 3rd party?
I would offer a settlement of like 2200.
The car was not serviced by the customer the warranty expired 1 year after the date of purchase and the only claim was for a Nox sensor which they delayed having done for 8 months but kept using the car. The “new” fault happened 18 months and 5,000 miles after purchase. The car was 7!years old at the time of sale was a 2 owner full main dealer service history car but was due a service hence us servicing it prior to sale. He could have discussed the engine replacement prior but he has an independent report and the car died under warranty. Is the warranty 3rd party?
I would offer a settlement of like 2200.
The customer does sound like someone that would keep driving a car with an engine warning light on.
Apart from the elapsed time I thought he would need to at least contact the seller in order to give them a chance to repair to make any claim valid? Are you certain the engine has actually been replaced?
Apart from the elapsed time I thought he would need to at least contact the seller in order to give them a chance to repair to make any claim valid? Are you certain the engine has actually been replaced?
surveyor_101 said:
I assume the owner has not missed a service?
He could have discussed the engine replacement prior but he has an independent report and the car died under warranty. Is the warranty 3rd party?
I would offer a settlement of like 2200.
Can't still be under warranty now though can it? He could have discussed the engine replacement prior but he has an independent report and the car died under warranty. Is the warranty 3rd party?
I would offer a settlement of like 2200.
IMHO you cannot turn up after 2.5 years (no service in that time either?) and expect someone foot the bill can you? He's had no chance to inspect or attempt a repair before some unknown 'garage' have decided the oil pump was faulty at time of sale. That's insane.
If he wanted the dealer to pay he should have took the car back to them as soon as it failed before engaging 3rd party repair.
As a (sensible I hope) consumer I wouldn't imagine I had any recourse in this situation.
I don't often feel sorry for car dealers but I do in this scenario.
Toltec said:
The customer does sound like someone that would keep driving a car with an engine warning light on.
Apart from the elapsed time I thought he would need to at least contact the seller in order to give them a chance to repair to make any claim valid? Are you certain the engine has actually been replaced?
All we have is a copy of an invoice and a letter from the engine company. The company is registered with Companies house but is not VAT registered. We have not seen the car since May 2016 and have had no contact with them since then either. I did call the engine company who say they are prepared to stand by there report.Apart from the elapsed time I thought he would need to at least contact the seller in order to give them a chance to repair to make any claim valid? Are you certain the engine has actually been replaced?
As the engine is now disposed of I have instructed an independent engineer to do a documentary report on all the evidence available and will find out what they say in a day or two.
I think enough time has elapsed between purchase and engine failure to dismiss this one. Working for a finance company if I'd seen this timeline of events I'd have rejected the complaint due to time elapsed.
Their only route to offset the potential loss is to pursue you, so this could be seen as a last ditch effort to do so but without being able to inspect the 'seized' engine they can't prove any pre-existing damage was there whatsoever.
As you've said they haven't serviced the car in the interim period thus (probably) breaking the manufacturer's recommended 12m service interval regardless of mileage covered.
Not contacting you to discuss the failure of the engine or asking for a 2nd opinion on what sounds like a hooky engine replacement doesn't play well in their favour either, you can't be expected to stump up for costs incurred without prior referral / discussion.
This wouldn't be a BMW Nox sensor by any chance would it as a friend has just changed his due to a similar starting / lumpy idle issue, seems to be a regular failure?
Edited to add - just seen reply re: independent report, this is likely what the finance company would do anyway if the case made its way to the financial ombudsman so a good move. Not sure what they're able to inspect however, check engine number to ensure that is has actually been replaced, stranger things have happened.
Their only route to offset the potential loss is to pursue you, so this could be seen as a last ditch effort to do so but without being able to inspect the 'seized' engine they can't prove any pre-existing damage was there whatsoever.
As you've said they haven't serviced the car in the interim period thus (probably) breaking the manufacturer's recommended 12m service interval regardless of mileage covered.
Not contacting you to discuss the failure of the engine or asking for a 2nd opinion on what sounds like a hooky engine replacement doesn't play well in their favour either, you can't be expected to stump up for costs incurred without prior referral / discussion.
This wouldn't be a BMW Nox sensor by any chance would it as a friend has just changed his due to a similar starting / lumpy idle issue, seems to be a regular failure?
Edited to add - just seen reply re: independent report, this is likely what the finance company would do anyway if the case made its way to the financial ombudsman so a good move. Not sure what they're able to inspect however, check engine number to ensure that is has actually been replaced, stranger things have happened.
Edited by JBUK on Thursday 2nd August 16:26
People expect something from a used car dealer?
Mine ignored my calls and email about something minor which I decided I could patch up myself, as would likely be asked to drive 40 miles to them anyway to look at anyway.
Of course this is ominous should anything else arise but I wonder if could work in my favour highlighting their disregard for customer service should they refuse to undertake any repairs under their warranty,
Mine ignored my calls and email about something minor which I decided I could patch up myself, as would likely be asked to drive 40 miles to them anyway to look at anyway.
Of course this is ominous should anything else arise but I wonder if could work in my favour highlighting their disregard for customer service should they refuse to undertake any repairs under their warranty,
DuraAce said:
Can't still be under warranty now though can it?
IMHO you cannot turn up after 2.5 years (no service in that time either?) and expect someone foot the bill can you? He's had no chance to inspect or attempt a repair before some unknown 'garage' have decided the oil pump was faulty at time of sale. That's insane.
If he wanted the dealer to pay he should have took the car back to them as soon as it failed before engaging 3rd party repair.
As a (sensible I hope) consumer I wouldn't imagine I had any recourse in this situation.
I don't often feel sorry for car dealers but I do in this scenario.
Ok my bad, I didn't see a comment from the OP about the warranty ending and so jumped. I have seen extened warraties cover this type of car.IMHO you cannot turn up after 2.5 years (no service in that time either?) and expect someone foot the bill can you? He's had no chance to inspect or attempt a repair before some unknown 'garage' have decided the oil pump was faulty at time of sale. That's insane.
If he wanted the dealer to pay he should have took the car back to them as soon as it failed before engaging 3rd party repair.
As a (sensible I hope) consumer I wouldn't imagine I had any recourse in this situation.
I don't often feel sorry for car dealers but I do in this scenario.
Maybe the MR A thought ok out of 12-month warranty I will cough up. Then the engine installer said looks like a dodgy oil pump on the old engine been like that a while at least the 2.5 years you have owned the car so was faulty when you bought it. That's why he is now claiming as he had evidence of preexisting fault at purchase.
As it's not cut and dry you try offering him half! Might just put the situation to bed.
I assume the driver has only done 5k since purchased so I wouldn't expect the engine to fail even if it missed an oil service.
This is getting ridiculous. How an earth can a dealer be expected to foot the bill on a used car they sold 2.5 years ago.
At what point does it become the owners responsibility? (I was under the impression it was after 6 months, but apparently not).
So whats to stop me, splurging £20k on used Porsche, ragging the arse off it, never servicing it and generally mistreating it. Thats ok, because in a couple of years I'll just hand it back to the dealer and get them to fix it for free.
The World's gone mad.
At what point does it become the owners responsibility? (I was under the impression it was after 6 months, but apparently not).
So whats to stop me, splurging £20k on used Porsche, ragging the arse off it, never servicing it and generally mistreating it. Thats ok, because in a couple of years I'll just hand it back to the dealer and get them to fix it for free.
The World's gone mad.
surveyor_101 said:
Ok my bad, I didn't see a comment from the OP about the warranty ending and so jumped. I have seen extened warraties cover this type of car.
Maybe the MR A thought ok out of 12-month warranty I will cough up. Then the engine installer said looks like a dodgy oil pump on the old engine been like that a while at least the 2.5 years you have owned the car so was faulty when you bought it. That's why he is now claiming as he had evidence of preexisting fault at purchase.
As it's not cut and dry you try offering him half! Might just put the situation to bed.
I assume the driver has only done 5k since purchased so I wouldn't expect the engine to fail even if it missed an oil service.
Yes I kind of agree with you here. The engine should not have failed within 5,000 miles irrelevant of the time scale. I would like to know though why it failed and what symptoms the car had prior to failing what caused the oil pump to fail and this is my biggest issue here that we were given no opportunity to inspect or investigate. This kind of tells me that something fishy is going on. I spoke with the specialist who did the Nox sensor on the car and tells me that the customer was asking him to write out a report stating the car was like that from purchase and he even sent him the report so he could copy and paste it on his headed paper. He refused to do this as in his opinion it was not like this at point of sale.Maybe the MR A thought ok out of 12-month warranty I will cough up. Then the engine installer said looks like a dodgy oil pump on the old engine been like that a while at least the 2.5 years you have owned the car so was faulty when you bought it. That's why he is now claiming as he had evidence of preexisting fault at purchase.
As it's not cut and dry you try offering him half! Might just put the situation to bed.
I assume the driver has only done 5k since purchased so I wouldn't expect the engine to fail even if it missed an oil service.
Thats What She Said said:
This is getting ridiculous. How an earth can a dealer be expected to foot the bill on a used car they sold 2.5 years ago.
At what point does it become the owners responsibility? (I was under the impression it was after 6 months, but apparently not).
So whats to stop me, splurging £20k on used Porsche, ragging the arse off it, never servicing it and generally mistreating it. Thats ok, because in a couple of years I'll just hand it back to the dealer and get them to fix it for free.
The World's gone mad.
You have 6 years to make a claim but after 6 months you have to prove it was like that at time of sale. The letter from the engine company is his proof Or at least that’s what he is hoping for. The next point is that the finance company are the ones responsible and any complaint made to them has to dealt with fairly. If they decline the claim the customer then can go to the Ombudsman to judicate. Even if the Ombudsman finds in the finance companies favour they will get a fine of £550 which they say is not actually a fine but a charge for investigating the complaint. The customer pays nothing whatever the outcome.At what point does it become the owners responsibility? (I was under the impression it was after 6 months, but apparently not).
So whats to stop me, splurging £20k on used Porsche, ragging the arse off it, never servicing it and generally mistreating it. Thats ok, because in a couple of years I'll just hand it back to the dealer and get them to fix it for free.
The World's gone mad.
When the engine failed on my motorcycle I knew I should have created a limited company, claimed to be an engine specialist and then wrote a letter back to the supplying dealership from a year with a letter saying the fault was there before I purchased.
How could anyone say a fault was pre-existing 2.5 years earlier? When an oil pump fails you'll hear the knocking in a few miles not over 5,000
How could anyone say a fault was pre-existing 2.5 years earlier? When an oil pump fails you'll hear the knocking in a few miles not over 5,000
chris52 said:
Thats What She Said said:
This is getting ridiculous. How an earth can a dealer be expected to foot the bill on a used car they sold 2.5 years ago.
At what point does it become the owners responsibility? (I was under the impression it was after 6 months, but apparently not).
So whats to stop me, splurging £20k on used Porsche, ragging the arse off it, never servicing it and generally mistreating it. Thats ok, because in a couple of years I'll just hand it back to the dealer and get them to fix it for free.
The World's gone mad.
You have 6 years to make a claim but after 6 months you have to prove it was like that at time of sale. The letter from the engine company is his proof Or at least that’s what he is hoping for. The next point is that the finance company are the ones responsible and any complaint made to them has to dealt with fairly. If they decline the claim the customer then can go to the Ombudsman to judicate. Even if the Ombudsman finds in the finance companies favour they will get a fine of £550 which they say is not actually a fine but a charge for investigating the complaint. The customer pays nothing whatever the outcome.At what point does it become the owners responsibility? (I was under the impression it was after 6 months, but apparently not).
So whats to stop me, splurging £20k on used Porsche, ragging the arse off it, never servicing it and generally mistreating it. Thats ok, because in a couple of years I'll just hand it back to the dealer and get them to fix it for free.
The World's gone mad.
You could possibly argue but I fear it'll cost you more than the £2,500 you've already lost!
imho it's wrong but that's not what the legislation states and the buyer knows and has played the rules.
Thats What She Said said:
This is getting ridiculous. How an earth can a dealer be expected to foot the bill on a used car they sold 2.5 years ago.
At what point does it become the owners responsibility? (I was under the impression it was after 6 months, but apparently not).
So whats to stop me, splurging £20k on used Porsche, ragging the arse off it, never servicing it and generally mistreating it. Thats ok, because in a couple of years I'll just hand it back to the dealer and get them to fix it for free.
The World's gone mad.
I agree mostly except, if the Oil pump was faulty when the car was sold, it shouldn't have been. If it failed as a result of that and caused an engine failure then it is probably right that the dealer should have some responsibility if something isn't fit for purpose when it's sold, then it's probably better that it remains an absolute liability to prevent unscrupulous businesses bodging to sell. But I would have thought at minimum an "Expert" report should be required and the oil pump available so it can properly be examined. It would be important to show why it wouldn't have manifested itself in 2 and a half years. I had to do this, at my cost, just to get a TV fixed that we had bought my Aunt one Christmas and that was less than 2.5K At what point does it become the owners responsibility? (I was under the impression it was after 6 months, but apparently not).
So whats to stop me, splurging £20k on used Porsche, ragging the arse off it, never servicing it and generally mistreating it. Thats ok, because in a couple of years I'll just hand it back to the dealer and get them to fix it for free.
The World's gone mad.
Further, just because the oil pump failed and that caused the engine to seize doesn't mean it's nothing to do with the new owner. It's pretty likely there were all kinds of warnings going on, before the engine seized and carrying on driving would shift blame or at least possibly make them liable for the difference between an oil pump and an engine.
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