First Projector and removable screen questions...
Discussion
Following on from the Short Throw Projectors thread and watching the video there, it got me thinking about the possibility of a projector - something I'd previously discounted due to cost, and issues rear wall/ceiling mounting and associated cabling.
With the advent of apparently several shorter throw projectors, and the drop in price generally of PJs, given a removable screen, I am considering the possibility of simply putting a projector on the coffee table in front of the sofa and removing it when not watching a film.
I have a lot of questions, and would appreciate any input from people on here.
Budget all-in (including screen) would need to be under £2k absolute max.
I'm ok at DIY so fitting it would not be a problem.
Screen
Firstly, with regard to the screen, it would need to be either pull up, or ceiling mounted pull down.
The issue is the front speakers are floor standers, and I can't really move them as they are perfectly set up for music and there is not a lot of additional space available, so I was thinking of a screen either in front (needs to be audio transmitting?), between (smaller screen size), or above (is 1m height of the bottom of the screen too high)?
I've attempted to show the room layout with the 3 screen locations (in green) below:
Room layout
Room Layout - projector by conradsphotos, on Flickr
Option A - screen in front of speakers - screen needs to be audio transmissive?
Option A - screen in front by conradsphotos, on Flickr
Option B - screen between speakers - compromise with smaller screen
Option B - screen between speakers by conradsphotos, on Flickr
Option C - screen above speakers - would the screen be too high - speakers are 980mm high?
Option C - screen above speakers by conradsphotos, on Flickr
Projector
Any suggestions on a suitable projector?
Full HD would be ok, as the main source is Panasonic DMP-BD500 bluray player, and I've no plans to go 4k for several years.
Is putting the projector on the coffee table a viable option? I don't mind running a cable temporarily to it and tehn removing when the film has finished.
At a real push, I could potentially mount the projector on a shelf behind the sofa (power is available), but I really want to avoid running HDMI cables round the room, so is there a viable way of getting the signal to the PJ from the bluray player (currently under the TV) wirelessly without loss of quality?
Main considerations are (in order of priority):
1. picture quality
2. 3D support (I know people have mixed feelings on 3D, but we really like it)
3. Noise - I'd like to avoid listening to fan noise from the PJ
I know that many people would think that the viewing distance even to the TV is close, but we are more than used to it and are looking for a bigger more immersive experience.
Thanks for any input.
With the advent of apparently several shorter throw projectors, and the drop in price generally of PJs, given a removable screen, I am considering the possibility of simply putting a projector on the coffee table in front of the sofa and removing it when not watching a film.
I have a lot of questions, and would appreciate any input from people on here.
Budget all-in (including screen) would need to be under £2k absolute max.
I'm ok at DIY so fitting it would not be a problem.
Screen
Firstly, with regard to the screen, it would need to be either pull up, or ceiling mounted pull down.
The issue is the front speakers are floor standers, and I can't really move them as they are perfectly set up for music and there is not a lot of additional space available, so I was thinking of a screen either in front (needs to be audio transmitting?), between (smaller screen size), or above (is 1m height of the bottom of the screen too high)?
I've attempted to show the room layout with the 3 screen locations (in green) below:
Room layout
Room Layout - projector by conradsphotos, on FlickrOption A - screen in front of speakers - screen needs to be audio transmissive?
Option A - screen in front by conradsphotos, on FlickrOption B - screen between speakers - compromise with smaller screen
Option B - screen between speakers by conradsphotos, on FlickrOption C - screen above speakers - would the screen be too high - speakers are 980mm high?
Option C - screen above speakers by conradsphotos, on FlickrProjector
Any suggestions on a suitable projector?
Full HD would be ok, as the main source is Panasonic DMP-BD500 bluray player, and I've no plans to go 4k for several years.
Is putting the projector on the coffee table a viable option? I don't mind running a cable temporarily to it and tehn removing when the film has finished.
At a real push, I could potentially mount the projector on a shelf behind the sofa (power is available), but I really want to avoid running HDMI cables round the room, so is there a viable way of getting the signal to the PJ from the bluray player (currently under the TV) wirelessly without loss of quality?
Main considerations are (in order of priority):
1. picture quality
2. 3D support (I know people have mixed feelings on 3D, but we really like it)
3. Noise - I'd like to avoid listening to fan noise from the PJ
I know that many people would think that the viewing distance even to the TV is close, but we are more than used to it and are looking for a bigger more immersive experience.
Thanks for any input.
Just to add a word of caution: Ultra short throw projectors really highlight wrinkly screens, so either a fixed frame or a good quality drop down (not 'pull' down) with tab tensioning will be needed to give you a flat enough surface. That means inconvenience (fixed screen) or higher cost for the tab tensioned screen.
Some over on AVforums have used a wall, but the acute throw angle will still highlight any bumps in the surface which become annoying very quickly. There is a big thread for the Chinese Xiaomi Mi Ultra short throw model (just ignore anything written by Roku2 as he is mostly regarded as a knob) which might help with some general ultra short throw information.
I ended up making a fixed frame acoustically transparent screen with my speakers behind and my TV moves down on an electric lift instead (a 1/10 the price of a drop down AT screen with tab tensioning).
Some over on AVforums have used a wall, but the acute throw angle will still highlight any bumps in the surface which become annoying very quickly. There is a big thread for the Chinese Xiaomi Mi Ultra short throw model (just ignore anything written by Roku2 as he is mostly regarded as a knob) which might help with some general ultra short throw information.
I ended up making a fixed frame acoustically transparent screen with my speakers behind and my TV moves down on an electric lift instead (a 1/10 the price of a drop down AT screen with tab tensioning).
I would say almost 1m off the ground would be too high, so wouldn't mount it above the speakers. And mounting in between you'll be compromising on screen size, so I would go for an acoustically transparent screen and have it in front.
Good advice on the short throws above.
How big a picture do you want to have?
Good advice on the short throws above.
How big a picture do you want to have?
You can get an electric drop down screen for not much money. If I were you I’d put your floorstanders a bit wider rather than get an AT screen.
Why don’t you ceiling mount the projector? I’ve had a few and setting it up before viewing would be a massive pain in the arse. After a while you won’t use it. If it’s ceiling mounted you will use it as it won’t move and you won’t need to refocus it etc every time.
£2k in projector terms is entry level. You could get a Sony hw45es for that though which is quiet with a.l good picture.
Why don’t you ceiling mount the projector? I’ve had a few and setting it up before viewing would be a massive pain in the arse. After a while you won’t use it. If it’s ceiling mounted you will use it as it won’t move and you won’t need to refocus it etc every time.
£2k in projector terms is entry level. You could get a Sony hw45es for that though which is quiet with a.l good picture.
Ok thanks so much for all your comments so far.
I've also been reading further about various screens, image formats, and viewing distances etc..
Screen
Firstly, having now looked at the price of AT screens, I think this option isn't a runner due to the cost - it seems the screen cost alone would be significantly in excess of my total budget. It also has the disadvantage, thinking about it, that it would reduce the viewing distance, coming down in front of the speakers.
In terms of putting the screen between the speakers, I totally agree that this would be the best option, but due to limitations with the room, I'm not really able to widen the gap between the speakers. The left one is next to the door to the room, and the right is already close to the sub. The sub is tightly integrated into the hifi system for listening to music and I spent ages getting it into the optimum position in the room, so moving it nearer the wall will seriously compromise this - it's not on the diagram but the side wall of the room is around 6 inches to the right of the sub.
Which basically leaves me with either a smaller screen, or mounting a drop down screen to come down to the top of the speakers.
Obviously the height of the screen, as rightly pointed out, then becomes a concern.
This article provided some food for thought regarding distances and screen sizes - perhaps the key information I took from this was that it recommends that the angle from the viewing position to the centre of the screen vertically should be no greater than 15 degrees to avoid risk of neck strain.
I need to do some more research, but according to this 15 degree angle, and given that the sofa fortunately has a fairly high seat (old lay-z-boy so eye level about level with the top of the speakers), this would theoretically enable a maximum screen height of 1350mm, which for a 1.85:1 aspect ratio screen would enable a screen width of around 2500mm. This co-incidentally is about the maximum width that could be positioned centrally in the room due to the limitations of the door to the left of the left speaker. Maybe I'm trying to convince myself, but 90% of the time we watch films, we tend to recline the sofa seats, which tilts one's head back slightly, and it's supported, so I'm reasonably sure that neck fatigue shouldn't be such a major issue?
I also found a useful article on screen aspect ratios, which has led me to conclude that a 1.85:1 aspect screen would probably be most suitable, as the available width is the limiting factor in the room.
So, given the above - are there any specific recommendations for good value for money drop down screens? I'm not too fussed about it being electrically operated - I'd be ok with a manual process?
Projector
Thanks also for the comments about projectors, particularly the fact that short throw ones really show up screen imperfections. I think given that I'll likely end up with a more budget screen, this is not a good idea.
I also take the point made by Douglas that having to set up the projector every time it's used would end up being a pain.
I think the sensible option is to go for a more conventional projector and either ceiling mount it, or wall mount it on a shelf on the rear wall immediately behind the sofa (which is against the wall)?
My concern with this is still getting the HDMI signal to the projector (I really want to avoid messy cabling). Are there any recommended high quality and reliable HDMI full HD wireless transmitters available (it would only need a range of around 4 metres in the same room)?
The whole area does seem quite complex with lots of variables (but it's also quite exciting)
Thanks again for your input so far, and any additional tips!
I've also been reading further about various screens, image formats, and viewing distances etc..
Screen
Firstly, having now looked at the price of AT screens, I think this option isn't a runner due to the cost - it seems the screen cost alone would be significantly in excess of my total budget. It also has the disadvantage, thinking about it, that it would reduce the viewing distance, coming down in front of the speakers.
In terms of putting the screen between the speakers, I totally agree that this would be the best option, but due to limitations with the room, I'm not really able to widen the gap between the speakers. The left one is next to the door to the room, and the right is already close to the sub. The sub is tightly integrated into the hifi system for listening to music and I spent ages getting it into the optimum position in the room, so moving it nearer the wall will seriously compromise this - it's not on the diagram but the side wall of the room is around 6 inches to the right of the sub.
Which basically leaves me with either a smaller screen, or mounting a drop down screen to come down to the top of the speakers.
Obviously the height of the screen, as rightly pointed out, then becomes a concern.
This article provided some food for thought regarding distances and screen sizes - perhaps the key information I took from this was that it recommends that the angle from the viewing position to the centre of the screen vertically should be no greater than 15 degrees to avoid risk of neck strain.
I need to do some more research, but according to this 15 degree angle, and given that the sofa fortunately has a fairly high seat (old lay-z-boy so eye level about level with the top of the speakers), this would theoretically enable a maximum screen height of 1350mm, which for a 1.85:1 aspect ratio screen would enable a screen width of around 2500mm. This co-incidentally is about the maximum width that could be positioned centrally in the room due to the limitations of the door to the left of the left speaker. Maybe I'm trying to convince myself, but 90% of the time we watch films, we tend to recline the sofa seats, which tilts one's head back slightly, and it's supported, so I'm reasonably sure that neck fatigue shouldn't be such a major issue?
I also found a useful article on screen aspect ratios, which has led me to conclude that a 1.85:1 aspect screen would probably be most suitable, as the available width is the limiting factor in the room.
So, given the above - are there any specific recommendations for good value for money drop down screens? I'm not too fussed about it being electrically operated - I'd be ok with a manual process?
Projector
Thanks also for the comments about projectors, particularly the fact that short throw ones really show up screen imperfections. I think given that I'll likely end up with a more budget screen, this is not a good idea.
I also take the point made by Douglas that having to set up the projector every time it's used would end up being a pain.
I think the sensible option is to go for a more conventional projector and either ceiling mount it, or wall mount it on a shelf on the rear wall immediately behind the sofa (which is against the wall)?
My concern with this is still getting the HDMI signal to the projector (I really want to avoid messy cabling). Are there any recommended high quality and reliable HDMI full HD wireless transmitters available (it would only need a range of around 4 metres in the same room)?
The whole area does seem quite complex with lots of variables (but it's also quite exciting)
Thanks again for your input so far, and any additional tips!
Douglas Quaid said:
You can get an electric drop down screen for not much money. If I were you I’d put your floorstanders a bit wider rather than get an AT screen.
Why don’t you ceiling mount the projector? I’ve had a few and setting it up before viewing would be a massive pain in the arse. After a while you won’t use it. If it’s ceiling mounted you will use it as it won’t move and you won’t need to refocus it etc every time.
£2k in projector terms is entry level. You could get a Sony hw45es for that though which is quiet with a.l good picture.
While you can, an electric drop down AT screen will not be cheap. Non AT drop downs without tab tensioning will not be flat and as I said previously a UST projector will really highlight any un-evenness in the surface.Why don’t you ceiling mount the projector? I’ve had a few and setting it up before viewing would be a massive pain in the arse. After a while you won’t use it. If it’s ceiling mounted you will use it as it won’t move and you won’t need to refocus it etc every time.
£2k in projector terms is entry level. You could get a Sony hw45es for that though which is quiet with a.l good picture.
I also don't know if a HW45ES will give the image size the OP is after from his coffee table (approx 1.2 metre throw?), plus I thought £2k was his total budget including the screen.
For the OP:
There are some projectors with a wireless HDMI built in (Epson make at least one, the models with 'W' at the end I believe), but may be above budget. I don't know of any separate wireless HDMI options, though I'd imagine they won't be cheap and you are already fighting budget for the screen and projector-don't under-estimate how annoying a crinkly screen can be as manual pull down screens very quickly develop a big 'V' wave in the middle. Unless you accept that it's just a starter screen and save for something better later on: My first screen was electric, but it had a strange texture that made it like watching through a gauze so I ended up replacing it and didn't get much back for it used (cost about £600 from what I remember).
A 1.85 screen is likely to be a custom order, so you may find an extra premium for that.
If you mount it on a shelf or ceiling mount at the back of the room then you will still be quite limited as to screen size, so I would recommend that you don't buy a screen at all until you get the projector installed: The zoom range can vary between examples and your set up sounds like you'll be using maximum zoom to try to fill the screen (which itself isn't ideal as it can soften the image). Have a look on this link to calculate the screen size of any projector models you are interested in:
https://www.projectorcentral.com/projection-calcul...
If you aren't sure how to use it, let me know what model you are interested in and the distance from the front of the projector and your proposed screen and I'll load the details in and take a screenshot. Also you have to take the depth of the projector into account in such a short throw set up as some can be 40-50cms deep.
It is fun having a big screen, but I know of a few people who have ended up with set ups that don't fill their screen (or fill it too much) because of throw/zoom issues.
Edited by OldSkoolRS on Thursday 16th August 08:37
Edited by OldSkoolRS on Thursday 16th August 08:39
OldSkoolRS said:
For the OP:
There are some projectors with a wireless HDMI built in (Epson make at least one, the models with 'W' at the end I believe), but may be above budget. I don't know of any separate wireless HDMI options, though I'd imagine they won't be cheap and you are already fighting budget for the screen and projector-don't under-estimate how annoying a crinkly screen can be as manual pull down screens very quickly develop a big 'V' wave in the middle. Unless you accept that it's just a starter screen and save for something better later on: My first screen was electric, but it had a strange texture that made it like watching through a gauze so I ended up replacing it and didn't get much back for it used (cost about £600 from what I remember).
Ok - so a manual pull down is now looking off the cards as the last thing I want is a big V wave in the middle. I guess they all do that due to the centre-pull nature of them?There are some projectors with a wireless HDMI built in (Epson make at least one, the models with 'W' at the end I believe), but may be above budget. I don't know of any separate wireless HDMI options, though I'd imagine they won't be cheap and you are already fighting budget for the screen and projector-don't under-estimate how annoying a crinkly screen can be as manual pull down screens very quickly develop a big 'V' wave in the middle. Unless you accept that it's just a starter screen and save for something better later on: My first screen was electric, but it had a strange texture that made it like watching through a gauze so I ended up replacing it and didn't get much back for it used (cost about £600 from what I remember).
With electric screens (non tab tensioned), do they generally give a reasonably flat surface (given the projector will now likely be at the back of the room), or is tab-tensioned the only way to go really? I want to limit the budget, but not if I'm going to end up spending several hundred pounds and the thing simply annoys me every time I use it. I guess I'd rather get it right first time, and I'm hoping/assuming that if the screen is good, it'll likely outlast the projector.
I wanted to limit the budget, but already get the feeling that man-maths and associated budget creep may be imminently looming...
When you got your first screen, then were unhappy with the texture, how did you go about ensuring the replacement was suitable? Is it a case of physically going to a supplier to demo the screen? Obviously it's pretty much impossible to see the texture of screens from images on websites.
One other thing regarding screens is they seem to come quoted with a gain ratio - 1, 1.2 etc..
As the room this will go in is a lounge (so not dedicated black walled cave environment), should I be looking at more of a gain of 1 rather than higher gain screen of 1.2+? The walls/ceiling are off-white/white, but when watching films, all other light sources will be blocked out, so the only light will come from the projector.
OldSkoolRS said:
A 1.85 screen is likely to be a custom order, so you may find an extra premium for that.
Having now looked further at screens available, given the small difference between 1:85 and 1:78 (16:9) and the fact that 16:9 is pretty much the standard for home cinema, it'll be a 16:9 screen. At the time I posted, I'd been reading about the relative merits of 2.4:1 vs 1.85:1, but now see 16:9 as the sensible option - thanks.OldSkoolRS said:
If you mount it on a shelf or ceiling mount at the back of the room then you will still be quite limited as to screen size, so I would recommend that you don't buy a screen at all until you get the projector installed: The zoom range can vary between examples and your set up sounds like you'll be using maximum zoom to try to fill the screen (which itself isn't ideal as it can soften the image).
That's such a good point, and something I was unaware of. I'd been happily looking at recommended models, but not realised the limitations in the zoom range, and different lenses installed, and hence throw/screen size limitations.OldSkoolRS said:
Have a look on this link to calculate the screen size of any projector models you are interested in:
https://www.projectorcentral.com/projection-calcul...
If you aren't sure how to use it, let me know what model you are interested in and the distance from the front of the projector and your proposed screen and I'll load the details in and take a screenshot. Also you have to take the depth of the projector into account in such a short throw set up as some can be 40-50cms deep.
Great link - thanks. https://www.projectorcentral.com/projection-calcul...
If you aren't sure how to use it, let me know what model you are interested in and the distance from the front of the projector and your proposed screen and I'll load the details in and take a screenshot. Also you have to take the depth of the projector into account in such a short throw set up as some can be 40-50cms deep.
The feature where you can input your desired screen size and throw distance to search the database is very helpful, as it effectively provides a shortlist of the projectors which would be suitable for mounting on a rear shelf and that would deliver the required image size. The results also indicate the range of throw distances that each projector can be at to give the required screen size, so regarding your comment about maximum zoom, would I be correct in thinking that ideally for better quality, if the projector can deliver the required size somewhere towards the middle of its zoom range, this is likely to give a better image than at either extreme?
OldSkoolRS said:
It is fun having a big screen, but I know of a few people who have ended up with set ups that don't fill their screen (or fill it too much) because of throw/zoom issues.
Good to have this pointed out now, rather than discovering it later. Many thanks.
Non tensioned electric screens generally tend to curl at the edges eventually, though some are made with some sort of heavy (fibreglass?) backing that helps prevent this.
By the time I realised my first (glass beaded) screen had this 'texture' issue I'd been to some dealer open days and worked out what I wanted: A plain white tab tensioned screen with 1.5 gain. However, my next mistake was that my walls were a light colour and the ceiling white, so this plain white screen tended to look more washed out due to reflections off the walls/ceiling. So like all things AV it's about compromises...
If you have a light coloured room then perhaps a grey screen might help (since you won't be able to go too large, most current projectors will be able to light one up OK). Although you say that the only light is from the projector, it is surprising how much of that gets bounced around a light coloured room.
I stuck with a white screen for my last build, but went AT on a fixed DIY frame using Seymour XD material, so I still had issues with the light room colour: My solution was to add pull out black velvet side curtains that come out 3 metres into my room, but that isn't convenient or possible for many and I'm still working on a pull out option to cover the first 1.5 metres of ceiling when I'm using the projector.
I went 2.40:1 aspect because I found that with my first screen, nearly everything I watched had black bars and was between 2.35:1 and 2.40:1 aspect (I don't watch much TV content on the projector). However, given your short throw limitations then you may find that a fixed width set up using a 16:9 screen is all you can accommodate anyway: Anamorphic lenses are expensive (for anything half decent) and have problems of their own and you are unlikely to have enough zoom to fill a 2.40:1 screen the same height as your proposed 16:9 screen.
By all means see if you can aim for mid zoom, but I think you may be limited by the very short throw distance if you want something noticeably bigger than a TV. If you end up zooming a lot, then consider looking out for a used model with a better lens than the Sony '45, such as a JVC model. I sold a JVC X500 a year ago and it would have been within your budget, more so now as there are new models due out later this year.
By the time I realised my first (glass beaded) screen had this 'texture' issue I'd been to some dealer open days and worked out what I wanted: A plain white tab tensioned screen with 1.5 gain. However, my next mistake was that my walls were a light colour and the ceiling white, so this plain white screen tended to look more washed out due to reflections off the walls/ceiling. So like all things AV it's about compromises...
If you have a light coloured room then perhaps a grey screen might help (since you won't be able to go too large, most current projectors will be able to light one up OK). Although you say that the only light is from the projector, it is surprising how much of that gets bounced around a light coloured room.
I stuck with a white screen for my last build, but went AT on a fixed DIY frame using Seymour XD material, so I still had issues with the light room colour: My solution was to add pull out black velvet side curtains that come out 3 metres into my room, but that isn't convenient or possible for many and I'm still working on a pull out option to cover the first 1.5 metres of ceiling when I'm using the projector.
I went 2.40:1 aspect because I found that with my first screen, nearly everything I watched had black bars and was between 2.35:1 and 2.40:1 aspect (I don't watch much TV content on the projector). However, given your short throw limitations then you may find that a fixed width set up using a 16:9 screen is all you can accommodate anyway: Anamorphic lenses are expensive (for anything half decent) and have problems of their own and you are unlikely to have enough zoom to fill a 2.40:1 screen the same height as your proposed 16:9 screen.
By all means see if you can aim for mid zoom, but I think you may be limited by the very short throw distance if you want something noticeably bigger than a TV. If you end up zooming a lot, then consider looking out for a used model with a better lens than the Sony '45, such as a JVC model. I sold a JVC X500 a year ago and it would have been within your budget, more so now as there are new models due out later this year.
justin220 said:
Just thinking out loud.. do you need a screen? Could you project straight into the wall instead?
Pros are, cheaper, and means the room looks normal (no fixed screen?)
Unfortunately that's not possible as the TV covers the central lower area where the projected image needs to go, so whatever I end up with will need to pull down in front of the tv. If projecting on the wall were an option, I think I'd be looking at a fixed screen on the wall in any case, as the walls are textured. Pros are, cheaper, and means the room looks normal (no fixed screen?)
[quote=C&C]
Unfortunately that's not possible as the TV covers the central lower area where the projected image needs to go, so whatever I end up with will need to pull down in front of the tv. If projecting on the wall were an option, I think I'd be looking at a fixed screen on the wall in any case, as the walls are textured.
[/quote]
Xiaomi Mi owners do seem to like them, and being laser powered you could consider doing away with the TV altogether and use a fixed screen. You could start with a cheap screen and upgrade later. I wouldn’t normally recommend a PJ in place of a TV but laser powered models switch on and off quickly and have long lamp life. It depends how much daytime TV you watch as the picture will look rubbish in a lit room. But if you can relocate your TV for daytime viewing and make the lounge more of a film watching room it might be doable.
Unfortunately that's not possible as the TV covers the central lower area where the projected image needs to go, so whatever I end up with will need to pull down in front of the tv. If projecting on the wall were an option, I think I'd be looking at a fixed screen on the wall in any case, as the walls are textured.
[/quote]
Xiaomi Mi owners do seem to like them, and being laser powered you could consider doing away with the TV altogether and use a fixed screen. You could start with a cheap screen and upgrade later. I wouldn’t normally recommend a PJ in place of a TV but laser powered models switch on and off quickly and have long lamp life. It depends how much daytime TV you watch as the picture will look rubbish in a lit room. But if you can relocate your TV for daytime viewing and make the lounge more of a film watching room it might be doable.
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