unnecessary work carried out by "specialist" garage
Discussion
I had a misfire on my e-type and I gave it to a specialist in e-types to fix. This is the email dialogue below:
To Garage:
I fitted some resistor plugs to the car and now its running as before without any misfire.
I contacted several e-type specialists in the UK and posted on the e-type forum in order to get to the bottom of the misfire. In doing this several people on the forum and specialists commented that condensation from the engine is completely normal, which makes me ask the question why you recommended me spending £1350 on a reskim. Most also came back to me and said that they thought it was ignition/ timing. Why didn’t you think this? I appreciate that the electronic ignition isn’t standard but you should have realised that it was ignition related and that the condensation was nothing to do with it. In total I must have wasted 6 hours driving back and forth to your place for this fault plus the same time for my partner. I have also had to cancel an XK hill climb that I was particularly looking forward to.
I would ask that you refund me £1350 for the unnecessary and misdiagnosed reskim.
From garage:
It is very disappointing that you are looking for us to refund your money for the latest invoice. We kept you informed throughout our investigations and always sought your approval before undergoing further work. Our procedure was a natural progression of elimination of the excessive amount of water being transferred through the breather pipe to the inlet manifold. Our work improved the situation, but as we explained, there is still some porosity in the system.
We have always ‘fitted you in’ whenever you required our services, despite an extremely heavy pre-booked work schedule and twice driven you home as a courtesy.
I consider our charges for the work carried out are genuine and reasonable.
To Garage:
You may have asked for my approval, however you are the specialist and its you who guide me as to what’s wrong with the car. See attached from XK engineering “its definitely not condensation”, attached from e-conic “Have to say that condensation coming from the breather is normal and is dealt with by venting it through the engine”, also several comments on the e-type forum that water out of the breather is what’s meant to happen. Why wouldn’t you know that? Your work didn’t improve the situation, how did it do this? It still misfired in exactly the same way. The re-skim was completely unnecessary as the problem is solved by the plugs which cost £20. You made the wrong recommendation so why should I be paying for that mistake?
Just had an email from them after chasing a response and they just refer me back to their original response. Does everyone think I have good grounds or not? If so then what should I do about it? small claims?
To Garage:
I fitted some resistor plugs to the car and now its running as before without any misfire.
I contacted several e-type specialists in the UK and posted on the e-type forum in order to get to the bottom of the misfire. In doing this several people on the forum and specialists commented that condensation from the engine is completely normal, which makes me ask the question why you recommended me spending £1350 on a reskim. Most also came back to me and said that they thought it was ignition/ timing. Why didn’t you think this? I appreciate that the electronic ignition isn’t standard but you should have realised that it was ignition related and that the condensation was nothing to do with it. In total I must have wasted 6 hours driving back and forth to your place for this fault plus the same time for my partner. I have also had to cancel an XK hill climb that I was particularly looking forward to.
I would ask that you refund me £1350 for the unnecessary and misdiagnosed reskim.
From garage:
It is very disappointing that you are looking for us to refund your money for the latest invoice. We kept you informed throughout our investigations and always sought your approval before undergoing further work. Our procedure was a natural progression of elimination of the excessive amount of water being transferred through the breather pipe to the inlet manifold. Our work improved the situation, but as we explained, there is still some porosity in the system.
We have always ‘fitted you in’ whenever you required our services, despite an extremely heavy pre-booked work schedule and twice driven you home as a courtesy.
I consider our charges for the work carried out are genuine and reasonable.
To Garage:
You may have asked for my approval, however you are the specialist and its you who guide me as to what’s wrong with the car. See attached from XK engineering “its definitely not condensation”, attached from e-conic “Have to say that condensation coming from the breather is normal and is dealt with by venting it through the engine”, also several comments on the e-type forum that water out of the breather is what’s meant to happen. Why wouldn’t you know that? Your work didn’t improve the situation, how did it do this? It still misfired in exactly the same way. The re-skim was completely unnecessary as the problem is solved by the plugs which cost £20. You made the wrong recommendation so why should I be paying for that mistake?
Just had an email from them after chasing a response and they just refer me back to their original response. Does everyone think I have good grounds or not? If so then what should I do about it? small claims?
Hi,
I would say that I'm uncomfortable with how you've worded your email. IF the business you chose to use is indeed an E-Type specialist, with a known and respected track record and is well known in the classic Jag scene, etc etc, then from your wording it seems that you are accepting the word of internet experts over them. It's wording like: "Most also came back to me and said that they thought it was ignition/ timing. Why didn’t you think this? " and "Why wouldn’t you know that? "
It makes it sound like you've accepted the words of others and come to the conclusion that the specialist doesn't know these things - in which case they can not be a specialist garage at all.
If they're a proper specialist in a given type of car, then they will know and will have been through every easy remedy before removing the head and skimming it. If they're the type of business that just whips a head off and skims it and tries to fleece the customer then they'll have no/bad feedback, no reputation and no track record, in other words, not a specialist.
The one thing that worries me in their reply is the bit about "always ‘fitted you in’ whenever you required our services, despite an extremely heavy pre-booked work schedule" because to my simple mind that's not a proper way to operate (and not relevant anyway). Their description makes them sound a somewhat chaotic outfit, but you'll know more about that then me form having used them previously.
I would say that I'm uncomfortable with how you've worded your email. IF the business you chose to use is indeed an E-Type specialist, with a known and respected track record and is well known in the classic Jag scene, etc etc, then from your wording it seems that you are accepting the word of internet experts over them. It's wording like: "Most also came back to me and said that they thought it was ignition/ timing. Why didn’t you think this? " and "Why wouldn’t you know that? "
It makes it sound like you've accepted the words of others and come to the conclusion that the specialist doesn't know these things - in which case they can not be a specialist garage at all.
If they're a proper specialist in a given type of car, then they will know and will have been through every easy remedy before removing the head and skimming it. If they're the type of business that just whips a head off and skims it and tries to fleece the customer then they'll have no/bad feedback, no reputation and no track record, in other words, not a specialist.
The one thing that worries me in their reply is the bit about "always ‘fitted you in’ whenever you required our services, despite an extremely heavy pre-booked work schedule" because to my simple mind that's not a proper way to operate (and not relevant anyway). Their description makes them sound a somewhat chaotic outfit, but you'll know more about that then me form having used them previously.
Hindsight is easy though. Hard to get upset when you agreed to the work recommended. As long as they had a solid basis for doing what they did, then hard to argue. Diagnosis is never easy and inevitably involves some degree of try this and see if it sorts it. I guess the only query would be why start with the expensive stuff. But then, maybe both the re-skim and ignition needed doing? You will never know the answer to this.
They should of realised it was an ignition/ timing fault. The engine had already been rebuilt as they had done a run in 500 mile service on it a few months before. At that point they changed the plugs to none resistor type .. resulting in the misfire. So they caused the misfire and they couldn't diagnose this and recommended expensive remedies. I have a feeling unfortunately that I will have to chalk this up to experience.
I think it's mental that a car garage is the only profession where a specialist can do the wrong work, not fix a problem, and still expect to get paid for it.
If you asked a carpenter to build you a table, and he built you chair you wouldn't expect to have to buy the chair, then pay for a table too.
If you asked a carpenter to build you a table, and he built you chair you wouldn't expect to have to buy the chair, then pay for a table too.
TheBALDpuma said:
I think it's mental that a car garage is the only profession where a specialist can do the wrong work, not fix a problem, and still expect to get paid for it.
If you asked a carpenter to build you a table, and he built you chair you wouldn't expect to have to buy the chair, then pay for a table too.
I know, "It might be this uber expensive unobtanium sensor, should we swap that out to see"? Ehm OK, "Nope not that, now we try a circuit board." Then the bill is not only for the wasted new parts, labour to fit them but even the initial diagnostic inspection that diagnosed jack all. If you asked a carpenter to build you a table, and he built you chair you wouldn't expect to have to buy the chair, then pay for a table too.
Unfortunately the one profession, that is way worse than this when it comes to charging, is the one you would need to turn to in order to sort it out. Lawyers make mechanics look like scrooge after the visit from the third ghost.
Edited by Graveworm on Friday 17th August 21:18
Garages seem to do this, experienced it a few times.
Our current family car would overheat sitting in traffic, the 'specialist' took some convincing that what I was telling them was the correct way of sorting it. How they didn't know what was wrong with it stumps me to this day.(What the receptionist said to me was just embarrassing).
Local back street garage (very sensible MOT place), were ready to put a gearbox in our last car when it just needed a clutch.
Our current family car would overheat sitting in traffic, the 'specialist' took some convincing that what I was telling them was the correct way of sorting it. How they didn't know what was wrong with it stumps me to this day.(What the receptionist said to me was just embarrassing).
Local back street garage (very sensible MOT place), were ready to put a gearbox in our last car when it just needed a clutch.
Edited by randomeddy on Friday 17th August 21:31
Most car specific specialist generally = lets charge the less well clued up lots more £££
Etype specialist guaranteed = we saw you coming! Hand over your wallet sir.
It's like they did a credit check on you and decided to charge you 100 x more for everything, £1,000 for a set of plug leads because its an etype sir, does the garage name start with a D?
Etype specialist guaranteed = we saw you coming! Hand over your wallet sir.
It's like they did a credit check on you and decided to charge you 100 x more for everything, £1,000 for a set of plug leads because its an etype sir, does the garage name start with a D?
Jonny TVR said:
I had a misfire on my e-type and I gave it to a specialist in e-types to fix. This is the email dialogue below:
To Garage:
I fitted some resistor plugs to the car and now its running as before without any misfire.
I contacted several e-type specialists in the UK and posted on the e-type forum in order to get to the bottom of the misfire. In doing this several people on the forum and specialists commented that condensation from the engine is completely normal, which makes me ask the question why you recommended me spending £1350 on a reskim. Most also came back to me and said that they thought it was ignition/ timing. Why didn’t you think this? I appreciate that the electronic ignition isn’t standard but you should have realised that it was ignition related and that the condensation was nothing to do with it. In total I must have wasted 6 hours driving back and forth to your place for this fault plus the same time for my partner. I have also had to cancel an XK hill climb that I was particularly looking forward to.
I would ask that you refund me £1350 for the unnecessary and misdiagnosed reskim.
From garage:
It is very disappointing that you are looking for us to refund your money for the latest invoice. We kept you informed throughout our investigations and always sought your approval before undergoing further work. Our procedure was a natural progression of elimination of the excessive amount of water being transferred through the breather pipe to the inlet manifold. Our work improved the situation, but as we explained, there is still some porosity in the system.
We have always ‘fitted you in’ whenever you required our services, despite an extremely heavy pre-booked work schedule and twice driven you home as a courtesy.
I consider our charges for the work carried out are genuine and reasonable.
To Garage:
You may have asked for my approval, however you are the specialist and its you who guide me as to what’s wrong with the car. See attached from XK engineering “its definitely not condensation”, attached from e-conic “Have to say that condensation coming from the breather is normal and is dealt with by venting it through the engine”, also several comments on the e-type forum that water out of the breather is what’s meant to happen. Why wouldn’t you know that? Your work didn’t improve the situation, how did it do this? It still misfired in exactly the same way. The re-skim was completely unnecessary as the problem is solved by the plugs which cost £20. You made the wrong recommendation so why should I be paying for that mistake?
Just had an email from them after chasing a response and they just refer me back to their original response. Does everyone think I have good grounds or not? If so then what should I do about it? small claims?
If you know whats wrong with the car, why not fix it yourself.....To Garage:
I fitted some resistor plugs to the car and now its running as before without any misfire.
I contacted several e-type specialists in the UK and posted on the e-type forum in order to get to the bottom of the misfire. In doing this several people on the forum and specialists commented that condensation from the engine is completely normal, which makes me ask the question why you recommended me spending £1350 on a reskim. Most also came back to me and said that they thought it was ignition/ timing. Why didn’t you think this? I appreciate that the electronic ignition isn’t standard but you should have realised that it was ignition related and that the condensation was nothing to do with it. In total I must have wasted 6 hours driving back and forth to your place for this fault plus the same time for my partner. I have also had to cancel an XK hill climb that I was particularly looking forward to.
I would ask that you refund me £1350 for the unnecessary and misdiagnosed reskim.
From garage:
It is very disappointing that you are looking for us to refund your money for the latest invoice. We kept you informed throughout our investigations and always sought your approval before undergoing further work. Our procedure was a natural progression of elimination of the excessive amount of water being transferred through the breather pipe to the inlet manifold. Our work improved the situation, but as we explained, there is still some porosity in the system.
We have always ‘fitted you in’ whenever you required our services, despite an extremely heavy pre-booked work schedule and twice driven you home as a courtesy.
I consider our charges for the work carried out are genuine and reasonable.
To Garage:
You may have asked for my approval, however you are the specialist and its you who guide me as to what’s wrong with the car. See attached from XK engineering “its definitely not condensation”, attached from e-conic “Have to say that condensation coming from the breather is normal and is dealt with by venting it through the engine”, also several comments on the e-type forum that water out of the breather is what’s meant to happen. Why wouldn’t you know that? Your work didn’t improve the situation, how did it do this? It still misfired in exactly the same way. The re-skim was completely unnecessary as the problem is solved by the plugs which cost £20. You made the wrong recommendation so why should I be paying for that mistake?
Just had an email from them after chasing a response and they just refer me back to their original response. Does everyone think I have good grounds or not? If so then what should I do about it? small claims?
Jonny TVR said:
They should of realised it was an ignition/ timing fault. The engine had already been rebuilt as they had done a run in 500 mile service on it a few months before. At that point they changed the plugs to none resistor type .. resulting in the misfire. So they caused the misfire and they couldn't diagnose this and recommended expensive remedies. I have a feeling unfortunately that I will have to chalk this up to experience.
You’ve used ‘of’ after should and ‘have’ after I. Why?Tomo1971 said:
If you know whats wrong with the car, why not fix it yourself.....
This.. you authorised the work and are now querying it? Why authorise it if you know the issue was elsewhere.Plus it sounds like a specialist you have used before/who has (according to their version) bent over backward for you, which suggests a good relationship not to get ripped off?
On the basis of the above, sound lie you’re being a bit precious because you don’t like the bill and don’t necessarily have grounds to complain?
Graveworm said:
I know, "It might be this uber expensive unobtanium sensor, should we swap that out to see"? Ehm OK, "Nope not that, now we try a circuit board." Then the bill is not only for the wasted new parts, labour to fit them but even the initial diagnostic inspection that diagnosed jack all.
Unfortunately the one profession, that is way worse than this when it comes to charging, is the one you would need to turn to in order to sort it out. Lawyers make mechanics look like scrooge after the visit from the third ghost.
Of course, all mechanics and lawyers are crooks Unfortunately the one profession, that is way worse than this when it comes to charging, is the one you would need to turn to in order to sort it out. Lawyers make mechanics look like scrooge after the visit from the third ghost.
Edited by Graveworm on Friday 17th August 21:18
A very useful and insightful contribution, I’m sure ...
There was a story in the aston club back in the 90s- I heard it a few times, so I think it had a ring of truth in it , if not 100% correct, where an owner takes his DB into a midlands specialist, for a basic 5k mile service. After a while where he was got a phone call saying his big end bearings were worn, and they'd need to be replaced...
In other words, they removed the engine and stripped it down, rather then an oil and filter change. I wont say who they were rumoured to be, as they are still trading.
In other words, they removed the engine and stripped it down, rather then an oil and filter change. I wont say who they were rumoured to be, as they are still trading.
85Carrera said:
Of course, all mechanics and lawyers are crooks
A very useful and insightful contribution, I’m sure ...
I think very few are crooks, I never said they were and that is not what I meant to imply. Just their charging structures, legitimate and industry wide would not be acceptable in a lot of other fields. A very useful and insightful contribution, I’m sure ...
I'm truly gobsmacked by this thread.
Did the specialist not do any of these checks? If not, why not?
If the engine had resistor plugs fitted prior to the rebuild, why did the specialist then use a different type? I would be wanting an answer to that question.
Jonny TVR said:
I had a misfire[/quote
The very first thing you suspect on a spark ignition engine when searching for the cause of a misfire is the plugs. Followed if necessary by the ignition leads, then the coil. Did the specialist not do any of these checks? If not, why not?
If the engine had resistor plugs fitted prior to the rebuild, why did the specialist then use a different type? I would be wanting an answer to that question.
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff