Odd Chimaera Locking Issue can anyone help?

[kippax]

My Chimaera is currently in the garage having had lots of work completed just one last thing has them baffled?
The doors didn’t lock/unlock from fob so they have done some work on this but now when one door locks the other unlocks?
No matter what they try (resetting etc) they cannot get both doors to lock/ unlock in unison?

Can anyone help with any ideas what issue could be?!

[indigochim]

Could it be a reversed polarity on one of the solenoids?

[ChimpOnGas]

The solenoids are just dumb units that simply receive a pulse signal from the central locking relay, they don't know if they're in lock or unlock mode and neither does the security system that triggers the relay when you press your IR fob.

Each time the solenoids are pulsed they simply cycle between lock and unlock mode alternately, If the car was locked (or unlocked) when one solenoid was disconnected and the other connected..... the two solenoids will become out of sync!

To resolve this and get the two solenoids working in harmony, disconnect one solenoid and lock (or unlock) the car once before reconnecting it, the two solenoids should now lock and unlock in sync with each other.

[Belle427]

I’m in the process of removing my foxguard Alarm and found out what a nightmare of a circuit this central locking is!
Especially those white/purple cables!
This diagram is quite useful, maybe totally different on some cars but it bears some resemblance to mine.
http://www.bertram-hill.com/tvr-griffith-central-l...

[Steve_D]

ChimpOnGas said:

The solenoids are just dumb units that simply receive a pulse signal from the central locking relay, they don't know if they're in lock or unlock mode and neither does the security system that triggers the relay when you press your IR fob.

Each time the solenoids are pulsed they simply cycle between lock and unlock mode alternately, If the car was locked (or unlocked) when one solenoid was disconnected and the other connected..... the two solenoids will become out of sync!

To resolve this and get the two solenoids working in harmony, disconnect one solenoid and lock (or unlock) the car once before reconnecting it, the two solenoids should now lock and unlock in sync with each other.

That's not my understanding of the circuit.
Each solenoid move in one direction or the other when the Pos. and Neg. are reversed. The central locking module, in its resting state, earths both sides of the solenoid. When it receives a 'Lock' signal from the alarm it puts pos. on one side of the solenoid leaving the other side earthed. It does the reverse when an 'Unlock' signal is received.

In the OPs case I think one of the solenoids is wired back to front.
To find which use the button on the door open knob which only locks the doors.
The solenoid at fault is the one still unlocked.
The wires that are the wrong way round will be a blue wire and a red/blue.

Steve

[ChimpOnGas]

Belle427 said:

I’m in the process of removing my foxguard Alarm and found out what a nightmare of a circuit this central locking is!
Especially those white/purple cables!
This diagram is quite useful, maybe totally different on some cars but it bears some resemblance to mine.
http://www.bertram-hill.com/tvr-griffith-central-l...

This is very helpful to the whole Chim/Griff community

That Toad Sterling system also looks excellent, I see it has two immobilisation circuits (18 amp continuous/30 amp max), compare this with the problematic Meta system which while also offering two immobilisation circuits does so making use of one 10a relay designed for the ECU, and one 25a relay designed for the far higher amp starter solenoid circuit.

As we all know now TVR wired the Meta system back to front running the low current ECU through the the M36T2 immobiliser's circuit two with it's 25a relay, and the higher current starter solenoid through circuit one and so the M36T2's lower rated 10a relay. Actually a starter solenoid should only really pull 10a but relays should always be rated higher than the continuous current draw to give you a buffer for reliability, but more importantly to allow for the inevitable current spike.

When a Chimaera starter motor is brand spanking new the starter solenoid will indeed pull 10a but you'll also see a momentary spike approaching 18a when the solenoid's coil is first energised, because of TVR's wiring mistake each time the car is started the poor little 10a relay potted inside the M36T2 immobiliser must cope with that momentary 18a spike which it was never designed for. Over the years and after many hundreds of starts this takes it's toll on the contacts in that long suffering 10a relay which further increases resistance in the circuit. As the starter motor gets older too and the TVR exhaust manifolds have cooked most of the grease out of it things get even worse, inevitably the solenoid is pulling way more current that it was when new, probably something on the order of 15a and a spike of 25a.

Had TVR wired the starter solenoid circuit correctly through the 25a relay as the Meta designers intended the M36T2 would have had a decent life, Meta chose a 25a relay for this circuit for very good reason. The way TVR wired the Meta system that poor little 10a never stood a chance, effectively it was a dead man walking from the day every Chimaera and Griffith left the Bristol Avenue factory in the early/mid 1990's. TVR basically implanted a reliability time bomb into every Chimaera and Griff they sent out the door, that 10a relay coped for a while but no one could say for how long, some lasted just a few years and some are only just failing now as proven by the number of immobiliser bypass instructions I am still sending out every month.

Rewind some 15 years and the cars were still quite young, but Carl Baker who is a factory trained Meta system installer started seeing lots of the same issue and soon worked out TVR's mistake, with thousands of Chimaeras produced it must have been a business opportunity staring him in the face, Carl's approach being the right one which was to replace the whole system but this time wiring it correctly. Since then Abacus Alarms and David of HF solution who are also both Meta trained agents joined in to support the TVR community by properly correcting what TVR got wrong offering their correctly wired 'replacement system' solutions.

At some point roughly 10 years ago David Beer of ModWise pops up and trys to tell everyone the common starting problem our cars suffer from was actually to do with the fact TVR never fitted a relay in the starter solenoid circuit. There are a number of flaws with this thinking that have left many TVR owners scratching their heads as their starting frustrations return after fitting this rather amateurish little loom of wires that hangs precariously in the passenger footwell much like TVR's own wiring mess.

The ModWise hot start kit claims to be a magic bullet fix which it most definitely isnt!

1. The first elephant sitting in the ModWise room is while it is indeed automotive wiring best practice to fit a relay in the starter solenoid circuit and TVR left it out, the truth is it's really just there to protect the contacts in the ignition switch not to supply more current to the starter solenoid as David Beer will have you believe.

2. The second elephant in the ModWise room is the fact that TVR's starter solenoid circuit wiring and the Vauxhall Cavalier ignition switch they used was/is all perfectly capable of dealing with the current drawn by the starter solenoid without any help from a relay. Sure, TVR didn't fit a relay which flew in the face of common auto wiring practice, but as it turns out they didn't need to fit one anyway. This was probably more a fortunate twist of fate than it was by TVR's design, I don't think anyone would argue against the fact the way TVR wired these cars left a lot to be desired.

3. The final elephant in the ModWise room is the real source of the problem is the way TVR wired the immobiliser, so we now have three really very clear and factually evidenced reasons why you shouldn't believe the promises of the hot start kit, and why the professional Meta installers like Carl Baker that properly understand the issue will remove the hot start kit and throw it in the bin if they find one when they're installing a new and correctly wired Meta system.

I can categorically reassure everyone the TVR wiring and the Vauxhall ignition switch are perfectly up to the job of supplying sufficient current to the starter solenoid, even when the starter motor is getting old and the solenoid may be drawing 20 amps or more. At this point it's important to understand when you you add the ModWise hot start kit (which is just a relay) you are still running the starter solenoid circuit through the Meta M36T2 so the current will still be passing through that little 10a relay potted into immobiliser, which as we now know is where the real problem resides.

All the above is fact, fact that shows up the ModWise hot start kit for what it is, which is a poorly thought out and poorly executed solution to a problem that actually doesn't exist. It's an amateurish made completely unnecessary collection of wires and a micro relay that only serves to introduce another point of failure made by someone who obviously hasn't understood the real source of the problem.

If the Toad system presented by Belle427 had been chosen by TVR from new, because both immobilisation circuits use 18 amp continuous/30 amp max internal relays even TVR would have found it impossible to balls up the installation, and that's saying something .

I see you can buy the Toad Sterling for just £85 including remotes and a siren, that seems extremely good value to me especially as it gives better range (which is poor with the Meta system), you also get a boot release circuit which TVR really should have offered from new instead of that stupid (ignition on) switch under the dash.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cat-1-alarm-for-car-or-...

It's only £30 more than this (rubbish ModWise copy) which will do fek all to help!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/253567272815

At least the above ModWise copy uses a common automotive relay rather than the hard to find micro relay used on the original, it's still a complete waste of money though so my advice would be to follow the lead of Belle427 and pay just £30 more for the Toad Sterling which looks like a well engineered solution that actually addresses the true starting fault TVR skillfully designed into every 90's TVR the built

[ChimpOnGas]

Steve_D said:

ChimpOnGas said:

The solenoids are just dumb units that simply receive a pulse signal from the central locking relay, they don't know if they're in lock or unlock mode and neither does the security system that triggers the relay when you press your IR fob.

Each time the solenoids are pulsed they simply cycle between lock and unlock mode alternately, If the car was locked (or unlocked) when one solenoid was disconnected and the other connected..... the two solenoids will become out of sync!

To resolve this and get the two solenoids working in harmony, disconnect one solenoid and lock (or unlock) the car once before reconnecting it, the two solenoids should now lock and unlock in sync with each other.

That's not my understanding of the circuit.
Each solenoid move in one direction or the other when the Pos. and Neg. are reversed. The central locking module, in its resting state, earths both sides of the solenoid. When it receives a 'Lock' signal from the alarm it puts pos. on one side of the solenoid leaving the other side earthed. It does the reverse when an 'Unlock' signal is received.

In the OPs case I think one of the solenoids is wired back to front.
To find which use the button on the door open knob which only locks the doors.
The solenoid at fault is the one still unlocked.
The wires that are the wrong way round will be a blue wire and a red/blue.

Steve

Hi Steve, I only offer this advice based on my experience after I recently fitted a new door solenoid to my 1996 Chimaera and had exactly the same issue the OP is describing.

I quickly worked out the new solenoid I fitted was in the lock mode while the other door solenoid was in unlock mode, I solved this by disconnected the old existing solenoid and hit the IR fob once before reconnecting it, both solenoids were then in unlock mode.

After completing the above procedure I was immediately able to lock/unlock both doors in unison

I can only speak for my 1996 'part face lift' Chimaera that still has the earlier manual brushed ally door opening plungers on rear wing/B-Pillar which uses one solenoid per door. I stand to be corrected but I believe the later cars from early 1997 on that had an electric door release buttons under the door mirrors may have used two solenoids per door, one to lock and one to unlock?

If you look at the OP's profile it says he owns a TVR Chimeara 4.3 (1994), so I can only assume the solenoid setup is the same as mine?

[Steve_D]

ChimpOnGas said:

Steve_D said:

ChimpOnGas said:

The solenoids are just dumb units that simply receive a pulse signal from the central locking relay, they don't know if they're in lock or unlock mode and neither does the security system that triggers the relay when you press your IR fob.

Each time the solenoids are pulsed they simply cycle between lock and unlock mode alternately, If the car was locked (or unlocked) when one solenoid was disconnected and the other connected..... the two solenoids will become out of sync!

To resolve this and get the two solenoids working in harmony, disconnect one solenoid and lock (or unlock) the car once before reconnecting it, the two solenoids should now lock and unlock in sync with each other.

That's not my understanding of the circuit.
Each solenoid move in one direction or the other when the Pos. and Neg. are reversed. The central locking module, in its resting state, earths both sides of the solenoid. When it receives a 'Lock' signal from the alarm it puts pos. on one side of the solenoid leaving the other side earthed. It does the reverse when an 'Unlock' signal is received.

In the OPs case I think one of the solenoids is wired back to front.
To find which use the button on the door open knob which only locks the doors.
The solenoid at fault is the one still unlocked.
The wires that are the wrong way round will be a blue wire and a red/blue.

Steve

Hi Steve, I only offer this advice based on my experience after I recently fitted a new door solenoid to my 1996 Chimaera and had exactly the same issue the OP is describing.

I quickly worked out the new solenoid I fitted was in the lock mode while the other door solenoid was in unlock mode, I solved this by disconnected the old existing solenoid and hit the IR fob once before reconnecting it, both solenoids were then in unlock mode.

After completing the above procedure I was immediately able to lock/unlock both doors in unison

I can only speak for my 1996 'part face lift' Chimaera that still has the earlier manual brushed ally door opening plungers on rear wing/B-Pillar which uses one solenoid per door. I stand to be corrected but I believe the later cars from early 1997 on that had an electric door release buttons under the door mirrors may have used two solenoids per door, one to lock and one to unlock?

If you look at the OP's profile it says he owns a TVR Chimeara 4.3 (1994), so I can only assume the solenoid setup is the same as mine?

Yes, had forgotten the button change so my info is based on 97.
As you say (on later cars) each door has 2 solenoids One does lock/unlock the other does the door open function driven from under the mirror. However they are separate system and only share a fuse.
I've just looked through another circuit diagram and it looks like the earlier system uses limit switches inside the solenoids so your solution should solve the problem.
The only proviso is concern that the wire connections have been changed during attempts to solve the problem.

Apologies if I have caused confusion.

Steve

[ChimpOnGas]

Steve_D said:

Yes, had forgotten the button change so my info is based on 97.
As you say (on later cars) each door has 2 solenoids One does lock/unlock the other does the door open function driven from under the mirror. However they are separate system and only share a fuse.
I've just looked through another circuit diagram and it looks like the earlier system uses limit switches inside the solenoids so your solution should solve the problem.
The only proviso is concern that the wire connections have been changed during attempts to solve the problem.

Apologies if I have caused confusion.

Steve

Interesting Steve

Actually I struggled with the first cheapy eBay solenoid I bought, basically it didn't have sufficient stroke, perhaps it didn't have the limit switch inside it too .

In the end I went all out and purchased the proper Spal brand which worked superbly, Spal stopped making solenoids a few years ago so although I only needed one I actually bought two of the last few in the country and being sold by Powers Performance..

Boy what a difference, the doors now lock and unlock with a real snap, way better than ever before,

Beware the cheap door solenoids, they are not all are created equal!