After Suicide - Works Pension / Will / Legal Issue

[Andy_stook_2k]

Hi all, I'm hoping somebody may be able to give me a bit of clarity on a recent issue.
My brother committed suicide a few months ago and it appears he has made a will saying he wants everything to go to his girlfriend.
He has also signed a document in his works pension which says he wants me to have his pension monies.
Obviously ( in my eyes) the two requirements appear to be at odds with each other.
Any ideas how this will play out?

Thanks in advance.

[TooMany2cvs]

Yep, they seem to be at odds. But will there even be a pension payout...?

If so, then the executor of the will needs to sort it out. If you and the widow can't agree, that's when it gets interesting.

[Marcellus]

Sad situation to be in and sorry to hear of the loss of your brother.

I guess it comes down to a few things;
1) the dates on the relative documents,
2) how well you get on with the girlfriend and how she wants to play it,
3) how the pension trustees interpret things as the document he signed for them was his wishes but they don't have to enact if reason to the contrary,
4) what future relationship you want with his girlfriend
5) are there any children involved.

Having been through similar (loss of brother, estranged wife claiming the lot) if there are children involved let her have the lot, keep things civil and you'll always be their uncle, even if there aren't children she'll always be your late brothers girlfriend/wife and some contact with him through her (if that makes sense).

Things didn't work that way for me or my family, it wasn't a pension but trust fund he set up, I now have no contact with my two nieces or sister in law apart from through lawyers/the courts, my parents have no contact with their Grand Children so my mother not only lost her son but also grand daughters!

Personally I think the trust/pension isn't worth that.

[Robbo 27]

I think that the Pension situation is a 'Wish' request, the Trustees are not bound by the Wish but must be influenced by it. They can be challenged on any decision they make, by you or any other person.


It is very likely that you are not just taken about a future pension, most schemes have a Death In Service payout based on a multiple of salary. Many years ago there used to be a suicide exclusion on Life Assurance, I dont think that applies any more.

Edited by Robbo 27 on Friday 24th August 12:18

[Jasandjules]

You say "appears" - have you seen the will yet?

[TwigtheWonderkid]

Robbo 27 said:

It is very likely that you are not just taken about a future pension, most schemes have a Death In Service payout based on a multiple of salary. Many years ago there used to be a suicide exclusion on Life Assurance, I dont think that applies any more.

Suicide exclusions are usually for 12 months after inception of the policy only. It is assumed that if you are planning suicide, you're unlike to want to wait a year before doing it. If you kill yourself more than a year after taking out the policy, it's assumed you didn't buy the policy knowing you were going to kill yourself at some point down the line.

[Daaaveee]

Sorry for your loss, I have been through the same so know how hard it can be.


Taking a simplistic look at it, the dates on the will and pension should clue you in on his wishes. I would go with the most recent.

[Robbo 27]

Rather than the two positions being at odds with each other some might take the view that the girlfriend was sorted out with all his assets whilst you were to have his only other asset, his pension. The idea being to avoid conflict after he was gone in terms of who had what.

[Andy_stook_2k]

Thanks for your responses, they all make good sense.
A bit more detail.....
I am his only living relative, he has no kids and never been married. He was 42 at death.
Three years ago I broke contact with him due to his psychotic rages and drug addiction. Both my father and brother were full blown addicts, one was gambling, the other was drugs. You have no idea how addicts can affect your own mental health if you let them. I walked away and have no regrets at all. I genuinely thought he may torch my house when I was asleep. My fears started to come true when he made online threats to his old boss ( who he always said he would murder one day) and the police got involved. Two weeks later he killed himself. I suspect a murder suicide was his intention. I could write a book on my family, bloody nightmare.
I have never seen the will so am just assuming his intentions. After the things done across me I suspect I am not mentioned, which is fine of course. The only reason I have been drawn back into things is because the people who run the company pension scheme have sent me forms to fill in, confirming next of kin etc.

[PurpleMoonlight]

I don't think it's odd at all. I have done something similar.

I thought it easier to bequeath one in total to one party, and the other in total to another party rather than splitting both between two.

[Marcellus]

Andy_stook_2k said:

Thanks for your responses, they all make good sense.
A bit more detail.....
I am his only living relative, he has no kids and never been married. He was 42 at death.
Three years ago I broke contact with him due to his psychotic rages and drug addiction. Both my father and brother were full blown addicts, one was gambling, the other was drugs. You have no idea how addicts can affect your own mental health if you let them. I walked away and have no regrets at all. I genuinely thought he may torch my house when I was asleep. My fears started to come true when he made online threats to his old boss ( who he always said he would murder one day) and the police got involved. Two weeks later he killed himself. I suspect a murder suicide was his intention. I could write a book on my family, bloody nightmare.
I have never seen the will so am just assuming his intentions. After the things done across me I suspect I am not mentioned, which is fine of course. The only reason I have been drawn back into things is because the people who run the company pension scheme have sent me forms to fill in, confirming next of kin etc.

In which case as a parting "gift" to your brother fill out the form with is girlfriends name, when he was alive you took the decision that you wanted nothing to do with him apart from him now not being here has anything really changed?

[anonymous-user]

Marcellus said:

In which case as a parting "gift" to your brother fill out the form with is girlfriends name, when he was alive you took the decision that you wanted nothing to do with him apart from him now not being here has anything really changed?

Not sure I agree with that. Surely the brothers bequeath of the pension is his way of a gift to the OP? An olive branch after death so to speak.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

garyhun said:

Marcellus said:

In which case as a parting "gift" to your brother fill out the form with is girlfriends name, when he was alive you took the decision that you wanted nothing to do with him apart from him now not being here has anything really changed?

Not sure I agree with that. Surely the brothers bequeath of the pension is his way of a gift to the OP? An olive branch after death so to speak.

Exactly. Assuming the brother made that request on his pension before the OP stopped contact, he had 3 years to change it, and he didn't. He might have just overlooked it, or he might have made a conscious decision to still leave his pension to his brother. We don't know, so we can only go by his instructions at the time he died, which were to leave it to the OP.

[cbmotorsport]

Marcellus said:

Andy_stook_2k said:

Thanks for your responses, they all make good sense.
A bit more detail.....
I am his only living relative, he has no kids and never been married. He was 42 at death.
Three years ago I broke contact with him due to his psychotic rages and drug addiction. Both my father and brother were full blown addicts, one was gambling, the other was drugs. You have no idea how addicts can affect your own mental health if you let them. I walked away and have no regrets at all. I genuinely thought he may torch my house when I was asleep. My fears started to come true when he made online threats to his old boss ( who he always said he would murder one day) and the police got involved. Two weeks later he killed himself. I suspect a murder suicide was his intention. I could write a book on my family, bloody nightmare.
I have never seen the will so am just assuming his intentions. After the things done across me I suspect I am not mentioned, which is fine of course. The only reason I have been drawn back into things is because the people who run the company pension scheme have sent me forms to fill in, confirming next of kin etc.

In which case as a parting "gift" to your brother fill out the form with is girlfriends name, when he was alive you took the decision that you wanted nothing to do with him apart from him now not being here has anything really changed?

If the OP did want to be sentimental about it, It would be better to claim it and give it to an addiction/mental health charity. probably achieve more good.

[cbmotorsport]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Exactly. Assuming the brother made that request on his pension before the OP stopped contact, he had 3 years to change it, and he didn't. He might have just overlooked it, or he might have made a conscious decision to still leave his pension to his brother. We don't know, so we can only go by his instructions at the time he died, which were to leave it to the OP.

Very easy thing to overlook, I recently looked at my affairs and realised I still had my pension payable to my long term ex girlfriend. I'm now married.

[anonymous-user]

cbmotorsport said:

Very easy thing to overlook, I recently looked at my affairs and realised I still had my pension payable to my long term ex girlfriend. I'm now married.

Was the wife impressed?

[TwigtheWonderkid]

cbmotorsport said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Exactly. Assuming the brother made that request on his pension before the OP stopped contact, he had 3 years to change it, and he didn't. He might have just overlooked it, or he might have made a conscious decision to still leave his pension to his brother. We don't know, so we can only go by his instructions at the time he died, which were to leave it to the OP.

Very easy thing to overlook, I recently looked at my affairs and realised I still had my pension payable to my long term ex girlfriend. I'm now married.

Also a very easy thing to amend, if you have a mind to.

We just don't know. He may have overlooked it. He may have made a decision to keep it to go to his brother, despite their fall out.

The only thing we know is that the last wish he expressed was for it to go to his brother. That would be good enough for me to keep the money if I were the OP.

[catman]

Robbo 27 said:

Rather than the two positions being at odds with each other some might take the view that the girlfriend was sorted out with all his assets whilst you were to have his only other asset, his pension. The idea being to avoid conflict after he was gone in terms of who had what.

The problem with that is, "all his assets" means exactly that and would include any pension/death in service payout.

It would be different if he said "I leave my pension/death in service to my Brother and all other assets to my Girlfriend."

Tim

[TooMany2cvs]

catman said:

The problem with that is, "all his assets" means exactly that and would include any pension/death in service payout.

But would it?

The payment isn't made to the pension scheme member, so isn't part of their estate. It's made direct from the scheme to the nominated NoK.

[Robbo 27]

TooMany2cvs said:

But would it?

The payment isn't made to the pension scheme member, so isn't part of their estate. It's made direct from the scheme to the nominated NoK.

Couldnt have put it better myself, had I been smart enough to think of it.