WDCs in not the best car?

[TobyTR]

Given how the Ferrari is marginally better than the Merc this year (even though it's nothing like the gap in '15 and '16 with Merc > Ferrari), thought it would be interesting to put a list together of drivers that won the Championship in lesser machinery

Off the top of my head:

1991 Senna - McLaren-Honda

1994 M.Schumacher - Benetton-Ford (although a strong argument for illegal traction control and the Hill/Adelaide episode )

1995 M.Schumacher - Benetton-Renault

2003 M.Schumacher - Ferrari (strong case for Williams-BMW and McLaren-Merc having slightly quicker cars that year)

2005 Alonso - Renault (McLaren-Merc MP4-20 was a missile, but also being a missile it liked to explode)

2007 Raikkonen - Ferrari (although it was very very close to that McLaren)


Any others?

[Vocal Minority]

TobyTR said:

Given how the Ferrari is marginally better than the Merc this year (even though it's nothing like the gap in '15 and '16 with Merc > Ferrari), thought it would be interesting to put a list together of drivers that won the Championship in lesser machinery

Off the top of my head:

1991 Senna - McLaren-Honda

1994 M.Schumacher - Benetton-Ford (although a strong argument for illegal traction control and the Hill/Adelaide episode )

1995 M.Schumacher - Benetton-Renault

2003 M.Schumacher - Ferrari (strong case for Williams-BMW and McLaren-Merc having slightly quicker cars that year)

2005 Alonso - Renault (McLaren-Merc MP4-20 was a missile, but also being a missile it liked to explode)

2007 Raikkonen - Ferrari (although it was very very close to that McLaren)


Any others?

Well the question here is what defines better?

For example, in 1991, whilst the FW14 was faster, it kept breaking. So using the old adage in order to finish first, first you have to finish - could you argue that the MP4/6 wasn’t quite as quick, it was better as it could be relied on to get you to the end - where the points live.


My offerings are probably

1982 - Rosberg

1958 - Hawthorn

2008 -Hamilton (the McLaren and Ferrari were pretty nip and tI know, but as Ferrari got the constructors, I guess you can give LH the benefit of the doubt.

1962 - Graham Hill - though as he gained a lot through Jim Clark’s car breaking you could maybe use the 1991 arguement here too

1985 - Prost, Williams was probably faster just about

[kambites]

I guess another way to ask a very similar question is what years have the WDC and WCC been won by different teams?

[LP670]

kambites said:

I guess another way to ask a very similar question is what years have the WDC and WCC been won by different teams?

1999 dispels that one, the McLaren was a better car but they lost the constructors to Ferrari. 1995, the Williams was the best car but managed to lose both titles and id even say the 2006 Ferrari was better than the Renault but they also lost both titles.

[kambites]

LP670 said:

1999 dispels that one, the McLaren was a better car but they lost the constructors to Ferrari.

The Mclaren was the faster car but 12 DNFs vs three for Ferrari says the Ferrari was the better car to me.

[williamp]

2009. The Brawn for the second half of the year. Possibly only 3rd best by the end

[whatxd]

williamp said:

2009. The Brawn for the second half of the year. Possibly only 3rd best by the end

Good job they accumulated their points in the first half of the season then!

[anonymous-user]

LP670 said:

1999 dispels that one, the McLaren was a better car but they lost the constructors to Ferrari. 1995, the Williams was the best car but managed to lose both titles and id even say the 2006 Ferrari was better than the Renault but they also lost both titles.

The 2006 Renault was the best car until the mass damper was banned. After that they were pretty much on a par.... Schumacher made the Ferrari look better than it was.

[LP670]

cb1965 said:

LP670 said:

1999 dispels that one, the McLaren was a better car but they lost the constructors to Ferrari. 1995, the Williams was the best car but managed to lose both titles and id even say the 2006 Ferrari was better than the Renault but they also lost both titles.

The 2006 Renault was the best car until the mass damper was banned. After that they were pretty much on a par.... Schumacher made the Ferrari look better than it was.

Or Alonso made the Renault look better than it was...... Massa was ahead of Fisichella in the final standings and Schumacher binned it in Australia and threw away Monaco with his qualifying antics.

[Frankthered]

Vocal Minority said:

Well the question here is what defines better?

For example, in 1991, whilst the FW14 was faster, it kept breaking. So using the old adage in order to finish first, first you have to finish - could you argue that the MP4/6 wasn’t quite as quick, it was better as it could be relied on to get you to the end - where the points live.


My offerings are probably

1982 - Rosberg

1958 - Hawthorn

2008 -Hamilton (the McLaren and Ferrari were pretty nip and tI know, but as Ferrari got the constructors, I guess you can give LH the benefit of the doubt.

1962 - Graham Hill - though as he gained a lot through Jim Clark’s car breaking you could maybe use the 1991 arguement here too

1985 - Prost, Williams was probably faster just about

Rosberg in 1982 is the stand-out for me - bordering on miraculous although it has to be acknowledged that DNFs due to reliability were much ore common back then.

Not sure about Williams being the better car in 1985 - certainly true at the end of the season, but the team certainly had a breakthrough during the season - not sure if that was the drivers, the car or a mixture of both?

Or were you thinking of Mansell's puncture in 1986?

[glazbagun]

I'd say in '94 the Williams wasn't the best car, especially at the start of the season.

Kimi in 08? Helped by a big dose of inter-team rivalry at McLaren.

[entropy]

Winning the WDC with the best car/inferior car is debatable but really you'll have a strong and weak part of the season or it ebbs and flows over a season mainly to due to the development.

LP670 said:

cb1965 said:

LP670 said:

1999 dispels that one, the McLaren was a better car but they lost the constructors to Ferrari. 1995, the Williams was the best car but managed to lose both titles and id even say the 2006 Ferrari was better than the Renault but they also lost both titles.

The 2006 Renault was the best car until the mass damper was banned. After that they were pretty much on a par.... Schumacher made the Ferrari look better than it was.

Or Alonso made the Renault look better than it was...... Massa was ahead of Fisichella in the final standings and Schumacher binned it in Australia and threw away Monaco with his qualifying antics.

Renault started off with the best car.

In 2006 Bridgestone created a stiffer construction of tyre which Ferrari struggled with at times in the early part of the year - hence Bridgestone didn't always create bespoke tyres for Ferrari - and figured it out for the second half of the year. More than anything I'd say 2006 was a tyre war with the Michelins that favoured Alonso/Renault.

[ralphrj]

TobyTR said:

1991 Senna - McLaren-Honda

1995 M.Schumacher - Benetton-Renault

As others have already pointed out, in both of these cases you could argue that the Williams FW14 and FW17 were sometimes faster they weren't the better car because both had woeful reliability.

[slipstream 1985]

glazbagun said:

I'd say in '94 the Williams wasn't the best car, especially at the start of the season.

Kimi in 08? Helped by a big dose of inter-team rivalry at McLaren.

And Massa bending over for him at every oportunity

[Sa Calobra]

williamp said:

2009. The Brawn for the second half of the year. Possibly only 3rd best by the end

You do know the story of why the car was Soo much better than everyone else's don't you?

[Vocal Minority]

Frankthered said:

Or were you thinking of Mansell's puncture in 1986?

Yes! Yes I was.....

glazbagun said:

I'd say in '94 the Williams wasn't the best car, especially at the start of the season.

Nope - it started out a total pig (everything's relative of course). Williams didn't adapt well to the active stuff going at first

[Kraken]

whatxd said:

Good job they accumulated their points in the first half of the season then!

Mainly because Vettel and others kept making mistakes whereas JB was pretty much faultless for the first flyaway races.

[entropy]

Kraken said:

whatxd said:

Good job they accumulated their points in the first half of the season then!

Mainly because Vettel and others kept making mistakes whereas JB was pretty much faultless for the first flyaway races.

Sa Calobra said:

You do know the story of why the car was Soo much better than everyone else's don't you?

Brawn had the best car due to double decker diffuser controversy. RBR caught up and overtook them once they were legalised not to mention the Brawns were flawed in cool conditions.

[Kraken]

entropy said:

Brawn had the best car due to double decker diffuser controversy. RBR caught up and overtook them once they were legalised not to mention the Brawns were flawed in cool conditions.

Williams and Toyota both had a double diffuser from day one as well. People always seem to forget that.

The Brawn car had basically zero development as the season went on and the compromises with the rear suspension to fit the Mercedes engine showed in cooler conditions.

The Toyotas and Vettel dropped the ball a few times in the early races when they had good chances to take more points.

Edited by Kraken on Wednesday 5th September 18:52

[entropy]

Kraken said:

Williams and Toyota both had a double diffuser from day one as well. People always seem to forget that.

The Brawn car had basically zero development as the season went on and the compromises with the rear suspension to fit the Mercedes engine showed in cooler conditions.

The Toyotas and Vettel dropped the ball a few times in the early races when they had good chances to take more points.

Edited by Kraken on Wednesday 5th September 18:52

Brawn started off with the better car than Toyota. I have a vivid memory of Bahrain being the only race they should've won. They too lost out on car development.