MotoGP - Yamaha Woes
Discussion
I stumbled across this article regarding the piss-poor performance of Yamaha this season:
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opinion/motogp/...
Very good read that goes into the possible technical reasons, comparing Yamaha with the other manufacturers. Hopefully someone finds it as informative as I did.
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opinion/motogp/...
Very good read that goes into the possible technical reasons, comparing Yamaha with the other manufacturers. Hopefully someone finds it as informative as I did.
Yamaha have made several errors.
No decent test rider, though not I think vital is a thing. Honda had Stonre before Marquez and then he went to Ducati and while he does not ride like the team riders he can share the load and prove pace and setup.
Yamaha do not have that, and were perhaps lazy, their basic machine has been the best handling bike in MotoGP probably for most of the new 4 stroke era save for the early yeras and the Stoner Honda Period and perhaps a few years of Marquez.
Hence the no test rider. I cant believe its electronics, unless the other teams are doing what is rumoured and using bespoke systems hiddne under the FIM control eleectronics.
No decent test rider, though not I think vital is a thing. Honda had Stonre before Marquez and then he went to Ducati and while he does not ride like the team riders he can share the load and prove pace and setup.
Yamaha do not have that, and were perhaps lazy, their basic machine has been the best handling bike in MotoGP probably for most of the new 4 stroke era save for the early yeras and the Stoner Honda Period and perhaps a few years of Marquez.
Hence the no test rider. I cant believe its electronics, unless the other teams are doing what is rumoured and using bespoke systems hiddne under the FIM control eleectronics.
chunder27 said:
Yamaha have made several errors.
No decent test rider, though not I think vital is a thing. Honda had Stonre before Marquez and then he went to Ducati and while he does not ride like the team riders he can share the load and prove pace and setup.
Yamaha do not have that, and were perhaps lazy, their basic machine has been the best handling bike in MotoGP probably for most of the new 4 stroke era save for the early yeras and the Stoner Honda Period and perhaps a few years of Marquez.
Hence the no test rider. I cant believe its electronics, unless the other teams are doing what is rumoured and using bespoke systems hiddne under the FIM control eleectronics.
Really not sure of your point if I am honest.No decent test rider, though not I think vital is a thing. Honda had Stonre before Marquez and then he went to Ducati and while he does not ride like the team riders he can share the load and prove pace and setup.
Yamaha do not have that, and were perhaps lazy, their basic machine has been the best handling bike in MotoGP probably for most of the new 4 stroke era save for the early yeras and the Stoner Honda Period and perhaps a few years of Marquez.
Hence the no test rider. I cant believe its electronics, unless the other teams are doing what is rumoured and using bespoke systems hiddne under the FIM control eleectronics.
Yamaha have Vinales and Rossi, I am pretty sure between those two, the Yamaha engineers get some pretty decent feedback.
Also, Stoner is looking to leave Ducati as a test rider at the end of this season as he feels the team is ignoring his feedback from testing, which begs the question as to how useful a test rider really is to a manufacturer team?
Yamaha do have an electronics issue this year which has been widely reported now, but they can do little about it till next season.
Gavia said:
Haven’t read the article yet, but has anyone linked Lorenzo leaving Yamaha to the onset of their woes, whilst at the same time the Ducati seems to be delivering a more consistent ride for both riders now?
Interesting point. Could be something in that. Expert opinion I have read points to electronics. Specifically they have not employed ex-Magneti people to get the most out of the ECU like Ducati and Honda have.
I'd wager Luigi Dall'Igna has played the biggest role in boosting Ducati.
Gavia said:
Haven’t read the article yet, but has anyone linked Lorenzo leaving Yamaha to the onset of their woes, whilst at the same time the Ducati seems to be delivering a more consistent ride for both riders now?
I haven't read it yet either but what you say makes one think. It's like a 'reverse Stoner'. Lorenzo being ultra smooth etcetera and influenced the development of the bike to suit that way of riding. We see the Ducati (and to a lesser extent Honda) as having that developed-for-one-rider problem as it's very visible to see those bikes bucking and weaving, getting crashed and performing poorly. Ducati tending to continue on with their bike despite feedback but, luckily for them, lending Lorenzo half an ear, widening the tank (and no doubt other things) and look what happened!Claudio Dominicali (sp?) CEO of Ducati has credited Lorenzo with a lot of interesting feedback that has helped develop the bike.
Test riders are useful if they have decent speed as lack of testing is an issue.
Mat Oxley's point about engine sealing is probably the key piece of information. All the issues with electronics, tyres etc may stem from one thing.
Test riders are useful if they have decent speed as lack of testing is an issue.
Mat Oxley's point about engine sealing is probably the key piece of information. All the issues with electronics, tyres etc may stem from one thing.
I think they have also missed a trick not having their second team on equivalent or very close to, hardware.
Especially with Zarco. His bike is still way behind the factory squad. Something like 3 revisions behind for the engine alone. The newer stuff isn't always the best, but the feedback is important to make progress. When you have such a talent, it seems churlish to ignore it's potential, both on track and in development.
Honda have Cal, Ducati Petrucci. Next year there will be two KTM teams with factory bikes.
Especially with Zarco. His bike is still way behind the factory squad. Something like 3 revisions behind for the engine alone. The newer stuff isn't always the best, but the feedback is important to make progress. When you have such a talent, it seems churlish to ignore it's potential, both on track and in development.
Honda have Cal, Ducati Petrucci. Next year there will be two KTM teams with factory bikes.
Gavia said:
Haven’t read the article yet, but has anyone linked Lorenzo leaving Yamaha to the onset of their woes, whilst at the same time the Ducati seems to be delivering a more consistent ride for both riders now?
Ahem 
pitlane back on the MotoGP Austria thread said:
Something not so easy to notice is the correlation between him leaving Yamaha, joining Ducati, and the contrasting fortunes of both teams since then. One has gone backward, the other has taken a big step forward. When you have a very fast rider who can also bang in unbelievably consistent lap times, it makes that rider a huge asset for developing a racing motorcycle, for that rider can go out on circuit and you can see exactly from the data as to the effects of that part / change / software strategy. Jorge is famed for his quite frankly staggering consistency.
I think this is a key factor in Yamaha's issues. Maverick has been a bit lost in himself, Valentino has been perhaps looking for something that didn't exist, and along the way the factory seem to have lost a little objectivity. It's certainly not going to be cured by the spec IMU, if it was just that aspect they would probably have got on top of it now. It's more fundamental than that, and in my personal opinion, not all down to the engine or its layout.pitlane said:
Gavia said:
Haven’t read the article yet, but has anyone linked Lorenzo leaving Yamaha to the onset of their woes, whilst at the same time the Ducati seems to be delivering a more consistent ride for both riders now?
Ahem pitlane back on the MotoGP Austria thread said:
Something not so easy to notice is the correlation between him leaving Yamaha, joining Ducati, and the contrasting fortunes of both teams since then. One has gone backward, the other has taken a big step forward. When you have a very fast rider who can also bang in unbelievably consistent lap times, it makes that rider a huge asset for developing a racing motorcycle, for that rider can go out on circuit and you can see exactly from the data as to the effects of that part / change / software strategy. Jorge is famed for his quite frankly staggering consistency.
I think this is a key factor in Yamaha's issues. Maverick has been a bit lost in himself, Valentino has been perhaps looking for something that didn't exist, and along the way the factory seem to have lost a little objectivity. It's certainly not going to be cured by the spec IMU, if it was just that aspect they would probably have got on top of it now. It's more fundamental than that, and in my personal opinion, not all down to the engine or its layout.chunder27 said:
Lol
So we all think the reason Yamaha are slow is because Lorenzo is gone?
Really?
You forget how dominant Mav was beginning of 2017 and in pre season? Then the "Ducati" Michelin came in, Yamaha lost out and Ducati started winning.
1. There are two of us who have raised it as a debating point, that doesn’t make “all of us” by my countSo we all think the reason Yamaha are slow is because Lorenzo is gone?
Really?
You forget how dominant Mav was beginning of 2017 and in pre season? Then the "Ducati" Michelin came in, Yamaha lost out and Ducati started winning.
2, Lorenzo was at Yamaha in 2016, you know, when the 2017 M1 was developed. Just as Ducati will have a 2019 bike that’s been developed through 2018.
Not rocket science.
Gavia said:
1. There are two of us who have raised it as a debating point, that doesn’t make “all of us” by my count
2, Lorenzo was at Yamaha in 2016, you know, when the 2017 M1 was developed. Just as Ducati will have a 2019 bike that’s been developed through 2018.
Not rocket science.
It’s not just down to Lorenzo. Before he arrived the bike was fast, yes, they had a purple patch with him and no doubt he’s an alien but the dip2, Lorenzo was at Yamaha in 2016, you know, when the 2017 M1 was developed. Just as Ducati will have a 2019 bike that’s been developed through 2018.
Not rocket science.
I’m form is likely a combination of things. The biggest IMO seems to be how the competition have some tidy test riders and the major issue employing technicians to get the best out of the electronics. I don’t believe the Yamaha engine lacks power, these days it’s all about management of that power. A few percent here and there is enough to give a huge advantage. I don’t understand Zarco’s dip entirely but things change at a huge rate of knots and it’s great to see some genuine pace from more than one manufacturer.
yonex said:
It’s not just down to Lorenzo. Before he arrived the bike was fast, yes, they had a purple patch with him and no doubt he’s an alien but the dip
I’m form is likely a combination of things. The biggest IMO seems to be how the competition have some tidy test riders and the major issue employing technicians to get the best out of the electronics. I don’t believe the Yamaha engine lacks power, these days it’s all about management of that power. A few percent here and there is enough to give a huge advantage. I don’t understand Zarco’s dip entirely but things change at a huge rate of knots and it’s great to see some genuine pace from more than one manufacturer.
I don’t think it’s solely down to Lorenzo, but the idea that he isn’t a part seems to be wide of the mark. Yamaha are being criticised for their poor test rider programme and relying on their racers for development. Seems to be that Viñales has had his head up his arse for the past 12 months so any feedback from him is of limited or no value. Rossi seems to be on his own and he’s struggling with it. I’m form is likely a combination of things. The biggest IMO seems to be how the competition have some tidy test riders and the major issue employing technicians to get the best out of the electronics. I don’t believe the Yamaha engine lacks power, these days it’s all about management of that power. A few percent here and there is enough to give a huge advantage. I don’t understand Zarco’s dip entirely but things change at a huge rate of knots and it’s great to see some genuine pace from more than one manufacturer.
Meanwhile, the Ducati has gone from strength to strength and delivering wins for both riders within the team. I’m convinced he has been a part in both Yamaha woes and Ducati's upturn into a bike that’s more than just fast in a straight line.
Gavia said:
I don’t think it’s solely down to Lorenzo, but the idea that he isn’t a part seems to be wide of the mark. Yamaha are being criticised for their poor test rider programme and relying on their racers for development. Seems to be that Viñales has had his head up his arse for the past 12 months so any feedback from him is of limited or no value. Rossi seems to be on his own and he’s struggling with it.
Meanwhile, the Ducati has gone from strength to strength and delivering wins for both riders within the team. I’m convinced he has been a part in both Yamaha woes and Ducati's upturn into a bike that’s more than just fast in a straight line.
But if it’s true they blagged a load of electronics guys they’d have a good advantage. It wasn’t long ago everyone said Lorenzo was a pussy and he needed to be sacked. Then some magic tank mod and Ducati start winning. Funny old world. Meanwhile, the Ducati has gone from strength to strength and delivering wins for both riders within the team. I’m convinced he has been a part in both Yamaha woes and Ducati's upturn into a bike that’s more than just fast in a straight line.
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