Dead as a dodo
Discussion
Afternoon all. I've foolishly let the battery go flat. I've had the battery on charge overnight and it's showing 13.2V
I have the full Carl Baker Meta alarms M36, the immobiliser light flashes and accepts the fob to disarm, but then I get nothing from the ignition. Also the fob does not arm/disarm the alarm.
New battery or something else>?
I have the full Carl Baker Meta alarms M36, the immobiliser light flashes and accepts the fob to disarm, but then I get nothing from the ignition. Also the fob does not arm/disarm the alarm.
New battery or something else>?
If from stone cold flat to fully charged you never actually disconnected one or more of the battery terminals this should be your first course of action. Disconnect the positive battery terminal for 20 seconds and then reconnect it, try to reconnect it in one firm positive action avoiding multiple pulses of current to the Meta system.
Be ready with your Meta fob as reconnecting the battery will likely be followed by a siren activation, after switching the alarm activation off you should proceed to locking and unlocking the car to fully reset and sync the system.
Hopefully that will do the trick, but do keep in mind you have a starter battery on your TVR not a deep cycle leisure battery. Starter batteries are not very tolerant of deep discharge situations and the longer the battery was left discharged the more likely it will be unrecoverable, most starter batteries on a car will only ever tolerate three deep discharge events at best and that's if you catch them in time.
Unfortunately it's also quite common to find even if your now charged battery starts the car for the next few weeks, when the colder months come it fails on you completely. This is because if your charger isn't a modern one, hidden damage will have taken place during the recharging process that serves to dramatically shorten it's future life, one cold morning when it's really being tested is when it'll let go for good never to be recovered again.
Also the fact your charger shows 13.2v is also not conclusive I'm afraid, what you need to do is forget what the charger says and use a multi meter, disconnect your charger and let the battery rest for 20 minutes, then check battery voltage using your multi meter. This is a more reliable test, however it does not tell you how your battery behaves when placed under load, a battery can show good voltage but will fail a heavy discharge test and for that you really need to go to a battery specialist or good mechanic who has a heavy discharge tester.
Good luck with the battery disconnect procedure, I suspect it'll get you up and running, but sadly I'm afraid to say you should also prepare yourself to discover you'll need a new battery at some point this winter.
Be ready with your Meta fob as reconnecting the battery will likely be followed by a siren activation, after switching the alarm activation off you should proceed to locking and unlocking the car to fully reset and sync the system.
Hopefully that will do the trick, but do keep in mind you have a starter battery on your TVR not a deep cycle leisure battery. Starter batteries are not very tolerant of deep discharge situations and the longer the battery was left discharged the more likely it will be unrecoverable, most starter batteries on a car will only ever tolerate three deep discharge events at best and that's if you catch them in time.
Unfortunately it's also quite common to find even if your now charged battery starts the car for the next few weeks, when the colder months come it fails on you completely. This is because if your charger isn't a modern one, hidden damage will have taken place during the recharging process that serves to dramatically shorten it's future life, one cold morning when it's really being tested is when it'll let go for good never to be recovered again.
Also the fact your charger shows 13.2v is also not conclusive I'm afraid, what you need to do is forget what the charger says and use a multi meter, disconnect your charger and let the battery rest for 20 minutes, then check battery voltage using your multi meter. This is a more reliable test, however it does not tell you how your battery behaves when placed under load, a battery can show good voltage but will fail a heavy discharge test and for that you really need to go to a battery specialist or good mechanic who has a heavy discharge tester.
Good luck with the battery disconnect procedure, I suspect it'll get you up and running, but sadly I'm afraid to say you should also prepare yourself to discover you'll need a new battery at some point this winter.
Because everyone likes a thread with an end...
ChimoOnGas was correct. A new battery has solved the problem, I really should have replaced it after Carl Baker worked his magic.
So, although the Odessey Extreme battery was showing 13v it was not possible n a fit state to crank, or indeed prime the fuel pump.
Note to self. Drive it more.
ChimoOnGas was correct. A new battery has solved the problem, I really should have replaced it after Carl Baker worked his magic.
So, although the Odessey Extreme battery was showing 13v it was not possible n a fit state to crank, or indeed prime the fuel pump.
Note to self. Drive it more.
Have no idea as to why but the battery went totally flat on the 430 the other week and now it will not accept a full charge and the Bosche battery is only 18 months old. She had only been sat for a few days without use as well. Alternator seems to be fine as do the diodes and the rectify and regulator are only a few months old.
So now have a new battery to buy as well and a new water/coolant pump. Oh yes she had a new alarm system fitted before I bought her last year.
So now have a new battery to buy as well and a new water/coolant pump. Oh yes she had a new alarm system fitted before I bought her last year.
MuffDaddy said:
Because everyone likes a thread with an end...
ChimoOnGas was correct. A new battery has solved the problem, I really should have replaced it after Carl Baker worked his magic.
So, although the Odessey Extreme battery was showing 13v it was not possible n a fit state to crank, or indeed prime the fuel pump.
Note to self. Drive it more.
I am on my third Oddity Extreme battery in two years......they really hate being deep discharged. Good plan - drive it more....ChimoOnGas was correct. A new battery has solved the problem, I really should have replaced it after Carl Baker worked his magic.
So, although the Odessey Extreme battery was showing 13v it was not possible n a fit state to crank, or indeed prime the fuel pump.
Note to self. Drive it more.
QBee said:
MuffDaddy said:
Because everyone likes a thread with an end...
ChimoOnGas was correct. A new battery has solved the problem, I really should have replaced it after Carl Baker worked his magic.
So, although the Odessey Extreme battery was showing 13v it was not possible n a fit state to crank, or indeed prime the fuel pump.
Note to self. Drive it more.
I am on my third Oddity Extreme battery in two years......they really hate being deep discharged. Good plan - drive it more....ChimoOnGas was correct. A new battery has solved the problem, I really should have replaced it after Carl Baker worked his magic.
So, although the Odessey Extreme battery was showing 13v it was not possible n a fit state to crank, or indeed prime the fuel pump.
Note to self. Drive it more.
Make sure you're using an AGM compatible charger, if you try to charge a fully discharged AGM battery using a normal 'flooded wet lead acid' battery charger it will unlikely charge the battery correctly.... if at all!
Worse still, if you use the wrong charger there's the very real risk of irreversibly damaging your expensive Odyssey AGM battery!
In the last part of recondition mode a wet lead acid battery charger may push the the battery up to up to 16v which is fine for a wet wet lead acid battery, but it will kill an AGM battery in short order, the number one rule with AGM batteries (and there are a few) is they should never ever be pushed above an absolute maximum of 14.4v.
The charge rate ie how many amps you give an AGM battery when charging is also critical and based on the battery's capacity in amp hours and cold cranking amps, Ring Automotive offer tables to show you the right setting. For example my big ol Odyssey PC1500 I fitted to my TVR six and half years ago is rated at 68ah and 850 CCA, so the charge setting should be 10-12a and obviously with my Ring Smart Charger Pro 50 (RSCPR50) set in AGM mode, the charger may itself choose to change the amps it delivers to the battery (example 2a float) but the base setting selected in my case should always be 12a.
You can find the tables here:
https://www.ringautomotive.com/files/mydocs/SmartC...
A good quality modern battery charger like my Ring RSCPR50 will have a number of modes for different battery chemistries including one specifically for AGM.
This different battery chemistry setting feature is there for a reason and way more important than people realise, you absolutely must use the right setting or even a sophisticated charger like mine will kill an AGM battery.
http://www.thelongestlecture.com/charge-agm-batter...
My Odyssey PC1500 is 6.5 years young and because I maintain it correctly I see no reason why it shouldn't have a 20 year life, Odyssey batteries are truly fantastic things but you do need to look after (maintain & recover) them correctly
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
If you don't look after it correctly, and worse still if you just use a standard battery charger on your fully discharged AGM battery, you can and probably will kill it..... which may be what others are unwittingly doing here
On a AGM after a deep discharge you normally need a charge voltage of approx. 14.7V and then drop to 13.6V
If you don't have the right charger, specialist battery suppliers sometimes offer a service to bring it back after a deep discharge Worth a try before you bin the battery.
If you don't have the right charger, specialist battery suppliers sometimes offer a service to bring it back after a deep discharge Worth a try before you bin the battery.
Edited by ahpboxster on Sunday 30th September 22:07
On a side note I use the Battery Brain as originally recommended by ChimpOnGas. I dont have an AGM battery but its ability not to allow the battery to go under 11v as well as a remote to completely switch off the battery circuit has been a god send when the car is laid up over a period. Probably worth considering if you have a AGM. A quick search for previous posts on PistonHeads will give you all the info you need.
Edited by ITVRI on Monday 1st October 07:48
Mine's a modern Ring charger bought last year, with more modes than a fashion house - I will have a look see if it has a special AGM setting when i am next at home. Whenever I have looked at it charging, I have never seen the 16+ volts you mention, so there is hope.
Thanks in the mean time ChimponGas - useful advice.
Thanks in the mean time ChimponGas - useful advice.
Do check mate.
If the charger is not set on AGM, and an older or less sophisticated flooded battery charger is used the spikes above 14.4v may not be displayed but they do happen and just one such spike will kill an AGM battery dead.
Another issue with recovering AGM batteries is the internal resistance is often so low a lesser charger may well refuse to kick in at all, the battery will present as unrecoverable so only fit for the bin.
The truth is its highly likely the issue is not with the battery at all but the wrong charger (or setting) is being used. Pop the suposedly unrecoverable and only fit for the bin AGM battery on a descent AGM compatable charger and put it in AGM mode and those batteries you've been throwing away will almost certainly come back to life to give years of further service.
I work with a battery supplier who says over 95% of the suposedly dead AGM batteries he gets back are actually fine and completely recoverable, he just recovers them gently and slowly using a proper AGM charger using the AGM mode.
AGM technology is brilliant and a big step on from traditional flooded batery technology but you do need to understand an AGM battery needs a different care program, this is especially important when it comes to recovering a deeply discharged AGM battery.
If the charger is not set on AGM, and an older or less sophisticated flooded battery charger is used the spikes above 14.4v may not be displayed but they do happen and just one such spike will kill an AGM battery dead.
Another issue with recovering AGM batteries is the internal resistance is often so low a lesser charger may well refuse to kick in at all, the battery will present as unrecoverable so only fit for the bin.
The truth is its highly likely the issue is not with the battery at all but the wrong charger (or setting) is being used. Pop the suposedly unrecoverable and only fit for the bin AGM battery on a descent AGM compatable charger and put it in AGM mode and those batteries you've been throwing away will almost certainly come back to life to give years of further service.
I work with a battery supplier who says over 95% of the suposedly dead AGM batteries he gets back are actually fine and completely recoverable, he just recovers them gently and slowly using a proper AGM charger using the AGM mode.
AGM technology is brilliant and a big step on from traditional flooded batery technology but you do need to understand an AGM battery needs a different care program, this is especially important when it comes to recovering a deeply discharged AGM battery.
There is a load of info on Odessey batteries out there and the consensus is you need 14.7V to charge, but if you charge at above 15.0V then you may kill it.
They also appear to be temp sensitive and don’t like to go above 50 deg C when charging.
Either having an appropriate charger or very careful monitoring is the order of the day.
I have just spent half an hour researching this as the Land Rover wouldn’t start yesterday, all the symptoms of flat batteries. Only been sat for a week or so, but recently it sat SORNd for three months and started straight away with out issue.
I suspect this is more likely to be a fault on the car causing discharge rather than a battery issue, but either way I need to start by charging them (twin PC1500’s) so expensive if I bugger them by charging incorrectly.
They also appear to be temp sensitive and don’t like to go above 50 deg C when charging.
Either having an appropriate charger or very careful monitoring is the order of the day.
I have just spent half an hour researching this as the Land Rover wouldn’t start yesterday, all the symptoms of flat batteries. Only been sat for a week or so, but recently it sat SORNd for three months and started straight away with out issue.
I suspect this is more likely to be a fault on the car causing discharge rather than a battery issue, but either way I need to start by charging them (twin PC1500’s) so expensive if I bugger them by charging incorrectly.
AGM batteries are definitely sensitive to overcharging, this is well know in the automotive battery industry, a charge of 2.40V/cell (and higher) is fine; however, the float charge should be reduced to between 2.25 and 2.30V/cell and summer temperatures may require lower voltages still.
When you overcharge a lead acid battery of any chemistry/contruction type it will generate hydrogen gas by breaking down the water into hydrogen and oxygen. In a flooded cell battery, when this happens you simply add distilled water to bring the electrolyte level back up.
With an AGM battery, several things happen differently. There is still hydrogen and oxygen being generated--but there is a small platinum (or similar?) catalyst in the battery cap. This recombines the hyrodgen and oxygen back into water. This both "wears out" the catalyst and generates heat. Do this often and with enough current, it will cause the battery to overheat and "vent"--letting gas and water out of the sealed battery. And you have no way to refill the battery or replace the catalyst.
AGM batteries do not like heat and should be installed away from the engine compartment. Manufacturers recommend halting charge if the battery core reaches 49°C (120°F).
However AGM has very low internal resistance, is capable of delivering high currents on demand which is ideal for cranking duties, it also has better endurance under repeated cranking conditions which is why car makers have universally adopted AGM batteries where stop-start technology is used. AGM batteries offer a relatively long service life too, even when deep cycled, AGM is also maintenance free, provides good electrical reliability and is lighter than the flooded lead acid type.
An AGM battery can last two to three times as long as a flooded battery, if a flooded battery lasts three to five years, an AGM battery could last six to ten years or longer, my Odyssey PC1500 is 6.5 years young now but I expect it to last anything from 12-20 years, others have had 20 years service from their full sized Odyssey batteries so this is not an unreasonable expectation.
AGM batteries also have a far lower self discharge rate than traditional wet (flooded) batteries, this makes them ideal for infrequently used vehicles like a TVR that's only used in the summer months, just disconnect it and an AGM battery should easily be able to sit for six months or more where a disconnected traditional wet (flooded) battery may only sit for three months before it's faster self discharge rate could easily leave you with a car that wont start.
Self discharge rates are only really relevant on a disconnected battery of course, once connected you've got the inevitable parasitic drain issue all cars will exhibit to a lesser or greater degree, the way to fight back is to choose a battery with the highest AH rating, the higher the AH rating the longer you'll be able to leave the car and still start it with the battery left connected and where no charging facility is available.
Many TVRs seem to exhibit excessive parasitic drain issues so the greater the AH rating the better, physics and chemistry dictate there will always be an unavoidable direct link between amp hours and the physical size of the battery which is why these small Odyssey batteries (while good for their size) can never ever compete even with a full sized traditional wet (flooded) lead acid battery if the car is likely to be left with the battery connected and no float charger is used.
My personal opinion is if the battery wont start the car after you've left it locked and alarmed in an airport car park having had a two week holiday, quite simply your battery is too small! Either that or you've got an excessive parasitic drain which really needs addressing or you'll just end up killing and getting through batteries at a frightening rate which is going to get annoying and very expensive, this is a common tale you read on the PH Chimaera forum because as I say TVRs can be shockers for exhibiting nasty parasitic drain issues.
The Advantages of AGM
Limitations of AGM
Overall if you can afford one and you look after it correctly going AGM is a no-brainer, but you really do need to invest in a decent AGM compatible battery charger because if you use a regular wet (flooded) lead acid charger you run the very real risk of damaging your expensive AGM battery.
If your charger offers different modes, select the correct one for your battery! For example it's well known in the industry that if you use say the gel setting to charge an AGM battery, it won't fully charge and, over time, it could actually damage your AGM battery! If the charger is an older type for sure it will be designed for a traditional wet (flooded) battery, and using it on an AGM battery puts it at a very real risk of being overcharged again leading to its early demise.
These are the facts about AGM batteries, ignore them at your peril
When you overcharge a lead acid battery of any chemistry/contruction type it will generate hydrogen gas by breaking down the water into hydrogen and oxygen. In a flooded cell battery, when this happens you simply add distilled water to bring the electrolyte level back up.
With an AGM battery, several things happen differently. There is still hydrogen and oxygen being generated--but there is a small platinum (or similar?) catalyst in the battery cap. This recombines the hyrodgen and oxygen back into water. This both "wears out" the catalyst and generates heat. Do this often and with enough current, it will cause the battery to overheat and "vent"--letting gas and water out of the sealed battery. And you have no way to refill the battery or replace the catalyst.
AGM batteries do not like heat and should be installed away from the engine compartment. Manufacturers recommend halting charge if the battery core reaches 49°C (120°F).
However AGM has very low internal resistance, is capable of delivering high currents on demand which is ideal for cranking duties, it also has better endurance under repeated cranking conditions which is why car makers have universally adopted AGM batteries where stop-start technology is used. AGM batteries offer a relatively long service life too, even when deep cycled, AGM is also maintenance free, provides good electrical reliability and is lighter than the flooded lead acid type.
An AGM battery can last two to three times as long as a flooded battery, if a flooded battery lasts three to five years, an AGM battery could last six to ten years or longer, my Odyssey PC1500 is 6.5 years young now but I expect it to last anything from 12-20 years, others have had 20 years service from their full sized Odyssey batteries so this is not an unreasonable expectation.
AGM batteries also have a far lower self discharge rate than traditional wet (flooded) batteries, this makes them ideal for infrequently used vehicles like a TVR that's only used in the summer months, just disconnect it and an AGM battery should easily be able to sit for six months or more where a disconnected traditional wet (flooded) battery may only sit for three months before it's faster self discharge rate could easily leave you with a car that wont start.
Self discharge rates are only really relevant on a disconnected battery of course, once connected you've got the inevitable parasitic drain issue all cars will exhibit to a lesser or greater degree, the way to fight back is to choose a battery with the highest AH rating, the higher the AH rating the longer you'll be able to leave the car and still start it with the battery left connected and where no charging facility is available.
Many TVRs seem to exhibit excessive parasitic drain issues so the greater the AH rating the better, physics and chemistry dictate there will always be an unavoidable direct link between amp hours and the physical size of the battery which is why these small Odyssey batteries (while good for their size) can never ever compete even with a full sized traditional wet (flooded) lead acid battery if the car is likely to be left with the battery connected and no float charger is used.
My personal opinion is if the battery wont start the car after you've left it locked and alarmed in an airport car park having had a two week holiday, quite simply your battery is too small! Either that or you've got an excessive parasitic drain which really needs addressing or you'll just end up killing and getting through batteries at a frightening rate which is going to get annoying and very expensive, this is a common tale you read on the PH Chimaera forum because as I say TVRs can be shockers for exhibiting nasty parasitic drain issues.
The Advantages of AGM
- Spill-proof through acid encapsulation in matting technology
- High specific power, low internal resistance, responsive to load
- Up to 5 times faster charge than with flooded technology
- Better cycle life than with flooded systems
- Water retention (oxygen and hydrogen combine to produce water)
- Vibration resistance due to sandwich construction
- Stands up well to cold temperature
- Less prone to sulfation if not regularly topping charged
- Has less electrolyte and lead than the flooded version
Limitations of AGM
- Higher manufacturing cost than flooded
- Sensitive to overcharging (AGM has tighter tolerances than gel)
- Capacity has gradual decline (gel has a performance dome)
- Low specific energy
- Must be stored in charged condition (less critical than flooded)
Overall if you can afford one and you look after it correctly going AGM is a no-brainer, but you really do need to invest in a decent AGM compatible battery charger because if you use a regular wet (flooded) lead acid charger you run the very real risk of damaging your expensive AGM battery.
If your charger offers different modes, select the correct one for your battery! For example it's well known in the industry that if you use say the gel setting to charge an AGM battery, it won't fully charge and, over time, it could actually damage your AGM battery! If the charger is an older type for sure it will be designed for a traditional wet (flooded) battery, and using it on an AGM battery puts it at a very real risk of being overcharged again leading to its early demise.
These are the facts about AGM batteries, ignore them at your peril
It is worth checking the technical manual for the manufacturer as well as they do vary a little.
On the Odyssey for example they have a section on heavily discharged batteries and how to bring them back to full charge (or as close as possible). If you use a normal voltage on a heavily discharged battery of say 14.4V you will reduce the lifespan of the battery. It should be a higher voltage (upto 14.8V ideally) to start and then drop to a lower voltage to finish the charge. So you have to be careful that your charger has this option on it and in some cases the "cold" weather option will boost the voltage to this level, but then you have to check that you reduce the charge voltage at the right time.
If you have a heavily discharged battery and it's not urgent, I would take it to a battery specialist who has the right kit. A lot of charges don't have that function on them.
As above though, they are great batteries, we have used them for various specialist vehicles and life span is great.
On the Odyssey for example they have a section on heavily discharged batteries and how to bring them back to full charge (or as close as possible). If you use a normal voltage on a heavily discharged battery of say 14.4V you will reduce the lifespan of the battery. It should be a higher voltage (upto 14.8V ideally) to start and then drop to a lower voltage to finish the charge. So you have to be careful that your charger has this option on it and in some cases the "cold" weather option will boost the voltage to this level, but then you have to check that you reduce the charge voltage at the right time.
If you have a heavily discharged battery and it's not urgent, I would take it to a battery specialist who has the right kit. A lot of charges don't have that function on them.
As above though, they are great batteries, we have used them for various specialist vehicles and life span is great.
Edited by ahpboxster on Thursday 4th October 10:41
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