Website Developers/Designers Opinions please

[Glasgowrob]

we're looking to put together a new booking site for our taxi and airport transfers company.

simple fresh website with booking platform that integrates with our dispatch software using their API. we have the option of using a skinned app provided by our dispatch software provider which whilst basic works as intended and does the job.


i've spoken to a few people about putting a booking site together in a skinnable format as we have a couple of different companies that we can use the same site with the mechanism and dispatch software all being the same only the name and branding being different.

to be completely honest i'm out of my depth when it comes to the whole web side of things these days and what i'm thinking of doing is asking a couple of designers/developers if they would be interested in building/running/promoting our website on a commision basis.

we tried using an seo company recently to promote the wifes shopify store and to be fair they seemed to say the right things but we saw no difference in sales or traffic and other than a fortnightly email from them i couldnt even tell you what they had done so wasnt really that impressed with the take the money and promise lots approach. hence this time round i think offering a commision on every booking or a percentage would be a great incentive to promote and grow the site.


couple of questions

is this something that any of you get offered?

is it something that would interest you?

am i barking up the wrong tree going down this road.

obviously more than happy to tie something together longterm with the right people and i do feel that it would be much more beneficial for us to have a partner rather than someone who knocks a site together for us then has no interest beyond that.


would be interested to hear the thoughts/comments from anyone who works in this field and has experience of it

[POORCARDEALER]

Glasgowrob said:

we're looking to put together a new booking site for our taxi and airport transfers company.


we tried using an seo company recently to promote the wifes shopify store and to be fair they seemed to say the right things but we saw no difference in sales or traffic and other than a fortnightly email from them i couldnt even tell you what they had done so wasnt really that impressed with the take the money and promise lots approach. hence this time round i think offering a commision on every booking or a percentage would be a great incentive to promote and grow the site.

Shark infested waters on SEO, most offer the worlkd and deliver zero as i know to my cost

[deckster]

Glasgowrob said:

wasnt really that impressed with the take the money and promise lots approach. hence this time round i think offering a commision on every booking or a percentage would be a great incentive to promote and grow the site.

Or, in other words, you want them to do all the work and take all of the risk, with a nebulous and uncertain promise of reward in the future?

Most developers won't want to touch this, I think. Developers develop code; they're (hopefully) good with computers and making stuff work. They aren't, typically, risk-takers or indeed people who know anything about promoting or growing a taxi business.

If this landed on my desk, my immediate thought would be that you aren't confident about the site giving a good return on investment - otherwise, you'd be making the investment yourself. As you presumably know your business, and if you're not confident that this is going to be a good use of time and money, then why should I be? Sorry but I wouldn't go near it with a bargepole.

Out of interest, what is wrong with the software provider's offering and why do you think a bespoke app is going to provide a better experience/return? Pragmatically speaking, can you not start with this to prove the principle and then roll your own if you think it's missing something important?

[akirk]

Glasgowrob said:

couple of questions

is this something that any of you get offered?

is it something that would interest you?

am i barking up the wrong tree going down this road.

obviously more than happy to tie something together longterm with the right people and i do feel that it would be much more beneficial for us to have a partner rather than someone who knocks a site together for us then has no interest beyond that.

Valid questions - but can be challenging.

When we take on a new customer our primary concern (fiscally) is their financial status / credit rating - we manage that partly by requiring a deposit before we start work (which we ring-fence as client monies) and then other work is paid retrospectively - we know pretty accurately our clients and their pattern of payment - so we have some clients where we expect payment up front / soon after, or we won't work for them - others we have worked for over 10+ years and can be far more tolerant of understanding their financial needs and making allowances for times which are tough for them - we have carried a couple of clients for a year or so - parking invoices, and each time they have come back and paid when they have been able to - knowing the client and a relationship of mutual trust and respect is very powerful

We have been approached by some potential clients who want work on a profit-sharing basis, but there are a number of questions which come up:
- If the business can't afford to pay for investment in its website, what does that say about the state / stage of the business
- Is the business much higher risk therefore (usually yes)
- If the deal is good for us (and financially it must be better than straight forward payment, as it is high risk), is it therefore bad for the company? A key part of our approach is that we don't just build websites - we build businesses (over 25 years of building businesses / start ups / next-step growth / etc.), so to enter into a relationship which may or may not be beneficial for the client raises questions
- what assets does the business have that make it stable / viable
- does the deal help or hinder the client in growing - the immediate might help, but giving away profits / equity on a long term basis can damage the business - we will only work in a way which builds the business it is core to our philosophy.
- what will be the legal basis for the agreement - and who pays for the documents to underpin it
- could it be a hybrid agreement (e.g. some payment / some profit sharing)

Very often (i.e. 99%+ of the time) the reason for this kind of approach will be:
- the business doesn't have a decent business plan / idea of how to build a business
- the business is very under-capitalised
- the business is not sound - the cost of doing what they want to do is way beyond the value of the business
- the business owners have fancy ideas - and want everything on a plate up front with no ability to fund it (rather than building the business step by step - selecting choices which help grow the business organically)
- the business owners want to move too fast, and over-stretch
- the business owners aren't able to separate what is business critical from what is 'sexy' - they like toys and functionality that really isn't the core need for the business - but don't want to pay for it (they usually have a very sexy brand / logos / etc. but no real idea of how they are going to make money)
- the business owners haven't sat down and thought through what they are giving away - they see equity give-away as a freebie and think they are clever by getting a website with no cost - rather than recognising that they are potentially restricting growth potential in the future

There is a core philosophy to business which is to a) not give away equity (I know that you are not suggesting this here) and b) to always look at the cost for convenience (hence avoiding equity give away which has a low up front cost, but a high long term cost) - so one question for you would be to think through all your alternatives - does the cost of doing it this way make sense against increased business - if you are not getting increased business, then you need to question the cost...

I hope that gives you some idea of what goes through the head of those in a web company (I am the owner / MD) - we are not anti the idea, but it is a much more complex set of questions and decisions than your simply asking someone to do the work for you - and where the traditional approach puts you in the driving seat as client / person paying, this can give the balance of control to the development company if you are not careful...

Ultimately though, the dev. company doesn't have cash or assets at risk in this approach, only some overhead costs and lost time (opportunity to earn), so with the right arrangement, then yes it is an option - and as you are a 'real' company with assets and actual clients (v. the usual over-hyped 'this will make my fortune' new business idea / app / etc. type approach) then it makes it far more viable to look at this with a company like yours...

do feel free to contact me via pm - for a phone chat if you want - we do quite a lot of API work (currently building a bespoke platform between a client's eCommerce / their major supplier's system / their till system), and love the challenges... but it will all come down to likely costs / what you want as an agreement / etc. Success is also going to be based on your pragmatism - how much you are after a drive for functionality (still looking smart and professional) or how much you want sexy features that really aren't essential at this stage - build it against your business' core needs and it could work...

we have done work for others on here...

A

[768]

deckster said:

Or, in other words, you want them to do all the work and take all of the risk, with a nebulous and uncertain promise of reward in the future?

Most developers won't want to touch this, I think. Developers develop code; they're (hopefully) good with computers and making stuff work. They aren't, typically, risk-takers or indeed people who know anything about promoting or growing a taxi business.

If this landed on my desk, my immediate thought would be that you aren't confident about the site giving a good return on investment - otherwise, you'd be making the investment yourself. As you presumably know your business, and if you're not confident that this is going to be a good use of time and money, then why should I be? Sorry but I wouldn't go near it with a bargepole.

Out of interest, what is wrong with the software provider's offering and why do you think a bespoke app is going to provide a better experience/return? Pragmatically speaking, can you not start with this to prove the principle and then roll your own if you think it's missing something important?

All of this.

Ultimately, if the commission is a percentage of zero (and right now it seems it is), you're asking for something for nothing. Which isn't particularly attractive as offers go.

You'll have to convince someone it's worth it and if they're right, you're better off paying them a flat rate anyway.

Personally, I do fixed price work and even at risk, IME most of my colleagues don't - even contractors who are further along the risk spectrum than most - but only for clients with established trust. Most of us just have too many of these offers to build things that have no guaranteed return (and most offer bigger returns than some booking commissions).

[Glasgowrob]

i'm in no way averse to paying if i can get a guaranteed product that will do what i want.

my only concern is after being burnt recently on the whole SEO thing on the wifes shop do i really want to spend a few thousand to find that the website doesnt perform as expected or work as required. just some musings atm really to see if this was a common thing or not.

looking at the competition i have online, their offerings are well for wnat of a better word, poor and these are companies i know have dedicated teams that work on their websites and back end stuff and even then their sites seem to struggle with the basics of our business. ie an example if a customer books a pickup from an airport it stands to reason that the booking shouldnt be allowed to be completed without a flight no being supplied for one.


akirk will drop you a mail if you dont mind

[akirk]

Glasgowrob said:

i'm in no way averse to paying if i can get a guaranteed product that will do what i want.

my only concern is after being burnt recently on the whole SEO thing on the wifes shop do i really want to spend a few thousand to find that the website doesnt perform as expected or work as required. just some musings atm really to see if this was a common thing or not.

looking at the competition i have online, their offerings are well for wnat of a better word, poor and these are companies i know have dedicated teams that work on their websites and back end stuff and even then their sites seem to struggle with the basics of our business. ie an example if a customer books a pickup from an airport it stands to reason that the booking shouldnt be allowed to be completed without a flight no being supplied for one.


akirk will drop you a mail if you dont mind

The reason that you see so many websites like that is because for most website companies - they are very good at the code / good at the look and feel / good at project managing a website and making the client feel special - but have little specialism in business... When we set out to build our business last decade, we deliberately combined the business skills with the coding skills - the big hole in many businesses (who are competent at their business) is digital - we are in a generation of business leaders and owners who didn't grow up using technology in the way of the current generation - and it means that it is not intuitive for the business owner... but just adding digital skills without an understanding of the business and how it is driving growth is at best only a partial success - to date we haven't come across another company who does quite what we do - which is great for us, but very surprising in terms of what customers need... so although we are a 'web company' we have also managed staff for clients / sat on their board as non-execs / even in one case been Ops Director and FD for a client for a transitional period! maybe not the normal expectation of a web company

will look forward to the email

A

[48k]

Glasgowrob said:

is this something that any of you get offered?

Yes. Quote often.

Glasgowrob said:

is it something that would interest you?

No. Never take up these kind of "offers" and nor do many in a similar position.

It's one of those cake and eat it offers where the potential customer wants the software house to take on all the risk and costs which rings alarm bells that they don't believe themselves that the idea is a go-er.

It might be better structured as an upfront fee for the initial development and then a commission based payment for running/hosting/supporting once live.

Edit: akirk has summed it up much better than I have.

[plasticpig]

The only thing I can add to akirks excellent summary is that from a client perspective you may find that you are always on the back burner with regards to development. Development companies are going to concentrate on work guaranteed to bring in income rather than work which is speculative and may not generate any revenue in the future.

[jonamv8]

akirk said:

Glasgowrob said:

couple of questions

is this something that any of you get offered?

is it something that would interest you?

am i barking up the wrong tree going down this road.

obviously more than happy to tie something together longterm with the right people and i do feel that it would be much more beneficial for us to have a partner rather than someone who knocks a site together for us then has no interest beyond that.

Valid questions - but can be challenging.

When we take on a new customer our primary concern (fiscally) is their financial status / credit rating - we manage that partly by requiring a deposit before we start work (which we ring-fence as client monies) and then other work is paid retrospectively - we know pretty accurately our clients and their pattern of payment - so we have some clients where we expect payment up front / soon after, or we won't work for them - others we have worked for over 10+ years and can be far more tolerant of understanding their financial needs and making allowances for times which are tough for them - we have carried a couple of clients for a year or so - parking invoices, and each time they have come back and paid when they have been able to - knowing the client and a relationship of mutual trust and respect is very powerful

We have been approached by some potential clients who want work on a profit-sharing basis, but there are a number of questions which come up:
- If the business can't afford to pay for investment in its website, what does that say about the state / stage of the business
- Is the business much higher risk therefore (usually yes)
- If the deal is good for us (and financially it must be better than straight forward payment, as it is high risk), is it therefore bad for the company? A key part of our approach is that we don't just build websites - we build businesses (over 25 years of building businesses / start ups / next-step growth / etc.), so to enter into a relationship which may or may not be beneficial for the client raises questions
- what assets does the business have that make it stable / viable
- does the deal help or hinder the client in growing - the immediate might help, but giving away profits / equity on a long term basis can damage the business - we will only work in a way which builds the business it is core to our philosophy.
- what will be the legal basis for the agreement - and who pays for the documents to underpin it
- could it be a hybrid agreement (e.g. some payment / some profit sharing)

Very often (i.e. 99%+ of the time) the reason for this kind of approach will be:
- the business doesn't have a decent business plan / idea of how to build a business
- the business is very under-capitalised
- the business is not sound - the cost of doing what they want to do is way beyond the value of the business
- the business owners have fancy ideas - and want everything on a plate up front with no ability to fund it (rather than building the business step by step - selecting choices which help grow the business organically)
- the business owners want to move too fast, and over-stretch
- the business owners aren't able to separate what is business critical from what is 'sexy' - they like toys and functionality that really isn't the core need for the business - but don't want to pay for it (they usually have a very sexy brand / logos / etc. but no real idea of how they are going to make money)
- the business owners haven't sat down and thought through what they are giving away - they see equity give-away as a freebie and think they are clever by getting a website with no cost - rather than recognising that they are potentially restricting growth potential in the future

There is a core philosophy to business which is to a) not give away equity (I know that you are not suggesting this here) and b) to always look at the cost for convenience (hence avoiding equity give away which has a low up front cost, but a high long term cost) - so one question for you would be to think through all your alternatives - does the cost of doing it this way make sense against increased business - if you are not getting increased business, then you need to question the cost...

I hope that gives you some idea of what goes through the head of those in a web company (I am the owner / MD) - we are not anti the idea, but it is a much more complex set of questions and decisions than your simply asking someone to do the work for you - and where the traditional approach puts you in the driving seat as client / person paying, this can give the balance of control to the development company if you are not careful...

Ultimately though, the dev. company doesn't have cash or assets at risk in this approach, only some overhead costs and lost time (opportunity to earn), so with the right arrangement, then yes it is an option - and as you are a 'real' company with assets and actual clients (v. the usual over-hyped 'this will make my fortune' new business idea / app / etc. type approach) then it makes it far more viable to look at this with a company like yours...

do feel free to contact me via pm - for a phone chat if you want - we do quite a lot of API work (currently building a bespoke platform between a client's eCommerce / their major supplier's system / their till system), and love the challenges... but it will all come down to likely costs / what you want as an agreement / etc. Success is also going to be based on your pragmatism - how much you are after a drive for functionality (still looking smart and professional) or how much you want sexy features that really aren't essential at this stage - build it against your business' core needs and it could work...

we have done work for others on here...

A

Some great advice from akirk here.

Also involved in this sector and our company, like akirks likes to mix business intelligence with software development. We get plenty of offers of equity and commission and very rarely take up the offer.

[768]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I've got some vague recollection of someone complaining about airport rides not happening at the time they wanted but being squeezed in because there cab company knew which flight they were on and them having a different opinion of how long it should take as a minimum to get through check in and security. Here be dragons.

[akirk]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I suspect the blunt answer is simply because as the systems provider we are paid to have that experience
One of my biggest issues with our sector is providers who don't apply common sense / help the client - they simply take a brief and deliver it and then when the client is not happy because they have got what they asked for, and not what they need - they leave them to get on with it...

I think we have to be careful to look behind the words in situations like this, as I said above (in the middle of a long and convoluted answer!):

akirk said:

Ultimately though, the dev. company doesn't have cash or assets at risk in this approach, only some overhead costs and lost time (opportunity to earn), so with the right arrangement, then yes it is an option - and as you are a 'real' company with assets and actual clients (v. the usual over-hyped 'this will make my fortune' new business idea / app / etc. type approach) then it makes it far more viable to look at this with a company like yours...

I am not against the idea - but as with any arrangement - whether payment by cash, or sacrificing your first-born, or simply Chocolate Brownies and Champagne delivered 9am every Monday for life (happy to work for that!), the arrangement has to be equitable for both sides - I am certainly not put off exploring the idea, and in doing so, would present several options to the potential client. Any work has a cost associated with it (let's say £10k for argument's sake) and that could be handled in lots of ways
- you might look to have it all risk-free as cash up front (£10k up-front)
- you might want it as cash, some up-front as a deposit, some payable in stages (e.g. £4k / £3k / £3k)
- you might allay the client's concerns and only charge in stages as work is done (e.g. £2k chunks after fifths of the project)
- you might ask for £5k up front and then a % payment until you hit £7k - £10k (extra profit to mitigate your risk)
- you might take a % share for life and risk getting less in the hope that you will make much more - across a number of projects you would expect to end up better off than taking other approaches...

there are lots of options - for us, we would want to manage our exposure to risk (so we wouldn't take the same approach with every client), and we would want the client to feel that it has worked well for them, so even if based on a % we would want to cap it so that the client doesn't see their future income for the next 20 years vanishing for a small gain early on...

We are though unusual in our sector in that we bill on an hourly rate for whatever we do, (we don't charge for an initial meeting, and we will make a cup of coffee without charge - but everything else is charged), and we charge like solicitors in 6 minute slots. That does mean that there is more work to manage expectations, but it also gives a far more equitable result - for us to quote a fixed price, we have to put in sufficient contingency to not lose out, which will undoubtedly mean the client ending up spending more than it actually costs - so this way, they can manage their budget and choose what to ask us to do - it means that they see a relationship between request and cost, rather than thinking that they have a fixed cost and therefore can keep on asking for more work to be done in that cost... and for those where we have a long standing relationship it means they often ask us to do work without necessarily wanting a quote - less time having to spec. and quote ultimately means cheaper work for the client...

So, it is all about flexibility and managing expectation - the request from GlasgowRob is not unusual, and very often ends up with the answer no - but I don't think that he is just asking that question - if you look beneath his request - he is asking for a longer term relationship which can help him build his business, and this is his thinking about how to phrase the request to get that outcome - that to me is interesting, so with discussion, there could be an approach which works for both sides...

[akirk]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Makes sense - but I operate at the start-up / small business end - where the client can be a farmer who is an inventor in his spare time / an opera singer / someone with a small building as Air B&B - through to lower end PLC companies turning over £20m - £50m p/a - we have some clients where it is all very tight and work is done, and live within hours, and others who will dither and commission work which takes 12 - 18 months of sitting there ready before it goes live - all sorts of variety... yours sounds more as though you are effectively a big company it dept. outsourced which will have a different way of working. It is not uncommon for us to start working for a client and then to end up managing staff for projects / or even ending up as a formal director on their board for interim periods - so it is much more flexible... and all about a solution which works for that specific client at that point in time - and that varies hugely...

[Si1295]

Glasgowrob said:

we tried using an seo company recently to promote the wifes shopify store and to be fair they seemed to say the right things but we saw no difference in sales or traffic and other than a fortnightly email from them i couldnt even tell you what they had done so wasnt really that impressed with the take the money and promise lots approach. hence this time round i think offering a commision on every booking or a percentage would be a great incentive to promote and grow the site.


couple of questions

is this something that any of you get offered? - Yes

is it something that would interest you? - No

am i barking up the wrong tree going down this road. - Yes

You could end up with a company that uses black hat techniques, you'll fly for a month or 2 and then the site will get a penalty from Google and the money that you spent on domain name, hosting, website design etc... will be lost.