box junctions ... are you allowed to crawl forward ?
Discussion
so if you get caught with a box junction down a hill and know that your space has now gone (your bad driving and lack of forward observation) .... but you do managed to realise the potential for video captured risk .....
are you able to then do "the slow race" game (motorcycles have a slow race where you dont stop or put your feet down ....) so you creep forward into the large box and time the limits to save you from actually coming to a stop
you didn't technically stop in the box so are you still in danger ?
are you able to then do "the slow race" game (motorcycles have a slow race where you dont stop or put your feet down ....) so you creep forward into the large box and time the limits to save you from actually coming to a stop
you didn't technically stop in the box so are you still in danger ?
SS2. said:
If you didn't stop within the confines of the box, then no offence is committed (irrespective whether your exit was blocked when you entered).
Is that true? I thought you could stop in the box if your exit was clear when you entered but some idiot cut you up and nicked your exit spot. But if you entered when your exit wasn't clear, you could still be done even if you didn't have to stop.TwigtheWonderkid said:
SS2. said:
If you didn't stop within the confines of the box, then no offence is committed (irrespective whether your exit was blocked when you entered).
Is that true? ... But if you entered when your exit wasn't clear, you could still be done even if you didn't have to stop.This is one of those where the wording in the Highway Code (which isn't law) differs slightly from the wording in the statute (which is)
HWC says: "You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear.."
The actual law says "no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles."
So the actual offence is stopping in the box junction (unless permitted under the subsequent paragraphs in the law regarding turning right)
HWC says: "You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear.."
The actual law says "no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles."
So the actual offence is stopping in the box junction (unless permitted under the subsequent paragraphs in the law regarding turning right)
J2daG1990 said:
If you don't come to a dead stop then no offence has been committed, so yes you can slowly crawl through it.
love it .. so as long as my video shows me at snails pace crawling forward and then going ... and at no point in the video coming to a STOP then no offence committed SS2. said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
SS2. said:
If you didn't stop within the confines of the box, then no offence is committed (irrespective whether your exit was blocked when you entered).
Is that true? ... But if you entered when your exit wasn't clear, you could still be done even if you didn't have to stop.NikBartlett said:
Nothing more entertaining than watching a total mug follow you into a box junction and then the look on their face when you stop just outside the box on the other side, trapping them for just long enough for them to be fined 
I think the legislation says ‘if a person...’, it does not state that necessarily means that person is the driver of the car that stops.Personally I believe you shouldn't enter the box junction unless there is room for you to exit (though in London at least that means someone will cut you up).
The Highway Code seems to back that up.
However the way the legislation is worded it seems you can enter as long as you don't stop.
If you time it wrong and and stop you can get done.....
The Highway Code seems to back that up.
However the way the legislation is worded it seems you can enter as long as you don't stop.
If you time it wrong and and stop you can get done.....
https://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/road-junctions.html said:
174
Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road (download ‘Road markings’). You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. At signalled roundabouts you MUST NOT enter the box unless you can cross over it completely without stopping.
Law TSRGD regs 10(1) & 29(2)
Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road (download ‘Road markings’). You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. At signalled roundabouts you MUST NOT enter the box unless you can cross over it completely without stopping.
Law TSRGD regs 10(1) & 29(2)
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/regulation/29/made said:
Road markings shown in diagrams 1025.1, 1025.3, 1025.4, 1043 and 1044: bus stop and bus stand clearways and box junctions
29.—(1) The road markings shown in diagrams 1025.1, 1025.3 and 1025.4 shall convey the prohibition specified in Part I of Schedule 19.
(2) The road markings shown in diagrams 1043 and 1044 shall convey the prohibition specified in Part II of Schedule 19.
29.—(1) The road markings shown in diagrams 1025.1, 1025.3 and 1025.4 shall convey the prohibition specified in Part I of Schedule 19.
(2) The road markings shown in diagrams 1043 and 1044 shall convey the prohibition specified in Part II of Schedule 19.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/schedule/19/made said:
PART II
SIGNIFICANCE OF BOX JUNCTION MARKINGS
Interpretation of Part II of Schedule
6. In this Part of this Schedule—
(a)“box junction” means the area of carriageway marked with yellow cross-hatching at a junction between two or more roads on which there has been placed the road marking shown in diagram 1043 or 1044; and
(b)a reference (however expressed) to a vehicle which is stationary or stops within a box junction includes a vehicle which is stationary whilst part of it is within the box junction.
Prohibition conveyed by markings in diagram 1043 or 1044
7.—(1) Except when placed in the circumstances described in paragraph 8, the road markings shown in diagrams 1043 and 1044 shall each convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.
(2) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not apply to any person—
(a)who causes a vehicle to enter the box junction (other than a box junction at a roundabout) for the purpose of turning right; and
(b)stops it within the box junction for so long as it is prevented from completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or other vehicles which are stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.
Prohibition conveyed when markings are placed in conjunction with signs in diagrams 615 and 811
8. When the road marking shown in diagram 1043 or 1044 is placed in conjunction with the signs shown in diagrams 615 and 811 on an area of carriageway which is less than 4.5 metres wide at its narrowest point, the road marking shall convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of oncoming vehicles or other stationary vehicles beyond the box junction.
SIGNIFICANCE OF BOX JUNCTION MARKINGS
Interpretation of Part II of Schedule
6. In this Part of this Schedule—
(a)“box junction” means the area of carriageway marked with yellow cross-hatching at a junction between two or more roads on which there has been placed the road marking shown in diagram 1043 or 1044; and
(b)a reference (however expressed) to a vehicle which is stationary or stops within a box junction includes a vehicle which is stationary whilst part of it is within the box junction.
Prohibition conveyed by markings in diagram 1043 or 1044
7.—(1) Except when placed in the circumstances described in paragraph 8, the road markings shown in diagrams 1043 and 1044 shall each convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.
(2) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not apply to any person—
(a)who causes a vehicle to enter the box junction (other than a box junction at a roundabout) for the purpose of turning right; and
(b)stops it within the box junction for so long as it is prevented from completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or other vehicles which are stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.
Prohibition conveyed when markings are placed in conjunction with signs in diagrams 615 and 811
8. When the road marking shown in diagram 1043 or 1044 is placed in conjunction with the signs shown in diagrams 615 and 811 on an area of carriageway which is less than 4.5 metres wide at its narrowest point, the road marking shall convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of oncoming vehicles or other stationary vehicles beyond the box junction.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
SS2. said:
If you didn't stop within the confines of the box, then no offence is committed (irrespective whether your exit was blocked when you entered).
Is that true? I thought you could stop in the box if your exit was clear when you entered but some idiot cut you up and nicked your exit spot.Adjudication appeal panel said:
35 Therefore the evidence before the previous Adjudicator was that, at the point of entry, Mr Essoo would have been able to see the free movement of traffic and the likelihood that his exit would be free for his vehicle. Since he could not have predicted that the van driver would perform an intervening act, namely cutting across his right of way, Mr Essoo’s judgment was not at fault at the point of entry. Therefore in our view no contravention occurred here. Mr Essoo did not breach the entry prohibition . The vehicle had to stop because of the intervening act of the other driver which was not predictable at the point of entry. A driver cannot be held liable for the contravention when it was outside his judgment to prevent it.
36 In our view the Regulation, describing as it does a consequence that a vehicle has to stop in the box due to the presence of stationary vehicles, does not thereby impose a necessity upon a driver that he must wait outside the box to see if traffic ahead will become stationary before he decides to enter. The traffic may still be moving when s/he enters and yet a contravention still occur if the traffic stops thereafter. This is the driver’s risk in the judgment s/he exercises unless, as in Mr Essoo’s case, the driver could not have predicted the reason for the stopping of the vehicles ahead.
37 We have had regard to the relevant paragraph advising motorists in the Highway Code. The warning is “ You must not enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear.” However we are of the view that this steps rather beyond what is required by the Regulation. A driver may exercise a prediction in his judgment as to whether the exit space will be clear. He is not to blame if the exit is thereafter blocked by an unexpected event such as the intervening action of another vehicle cutting into his right of way without warning.
38 We are therefore of the view that the interests of justice are served by a review here. Applying the finding of fact to the Regulation, we believe that the Adjudicator has made a misdirection in viewing the circumstances as only proving a contravention subject to mitigation. We review the decision and find that no contravention occurred. The appeal is therefore allowed.
.36 In our view the Regulation, describing as it does a consequence that a vehicle has to stop in the box due to the presence of stationary vehicles, does not thereby impose a necessity upon a driver that he must wait outside the box to see if traffic ahead will become stationary before he decides to enter. The traffic may still be moving when s/he enters and yet a contravention still occur if the traffic stops thereafter. This is the driver’s risk in the judgment s/he exercises unless, as in Mr Essoo’s case, the driver could not have predicted the reason for the stopping of the vehicles ahead.
37 We have had regard to the relevant paragraph advising motorists in the Highway Code. The warning is “ You must not enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear.” However we are of the view that this steps rather beyond what is required by the Regulation. A driver may exercise a prediction in his judgment as to whether the exit space will be clear. He is not to blame if the exit is thereafter blocked by an unexpected event such as the intervening action of another vehicle cutting into his right of way without warning.
38 We are therefore of the view that the interests of justice are served by a review here. Applying the finding of fact to the Regulation, we believe that the Adjudicator has made a misdirection in viewing the circumstances as only proving a contravention subject to mitigation. We review the decision and find that no contravention occurred. The appeal is therefore allowed.
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/key-cases?f...
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/f...
TwigtheWonderkid said:
But if you entered when your exit wasn't clear, you could still be done even if you didn't have to stop.
If you don't stop, no offence has been committed. The question posed by the OP is effectively answered by paragraph 36 above. He is taking a gamble..As paragraph 37 makes plain, when HC 174 says 'You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear' it mis-states the relevant legislation.
Pica-Pica said:
NikBartlett said:
Nothing more entertaining than watching a total mug follow you into a box junction and then the look on their face when you stop just outside the box on the other side, trapping them for just long enough for them to be fined
I think the legislation says ‘if a person...’, it does not state that necessarily means that person is the driver of the car that stops.RESULT!!!!!
Adjudication appeal panel said:
35 Therefore the evidence before the previous Adjudicator was that, at the point of entry, Mr Essoo would have been able to see the free movement of traffic and the likelihood that his exit would be free for his vehicle. Since he could not have predicted that the van driver would perform an intervening act, namely cutting across his right of way, Mr Essoo’s judgment was not at fault at the point of entry. Therefore in our view no contravention occurred here. Mr Essoo did not breach the entry prohibition . The vehicle had to stop because of the intervening act of the other driver which was not predictable at the point of entry. A driver cannot be held liable for the contravention when it was outside his judgment to prevent it.
36 In our view the Regulation, describing as it does a consequence that a vehicle has to stop in the box due to the presence of stationary vehicles, does not thereby impose a necessity upon a driver that he must wait outside the box to see if traffic ahead will become stationary before he decides to enter. The traffic may still be moving when s/he enters and yet a contravention still occur if the traffic stops thereafter. This is the driver’s risk in the judgment s/he exercises unless, as in Mr Essoo’s case, the driver could not have predicted the reason for the stopping of the vehicles ahead.
37 We have had regard to the relevant paragraph advising motorists in the Highway Code. The warning is “ You must not enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear.” However we are of the view that this steps rather beyond what is required by the Regulation. A driver may exercise a prediction in his judgment as to whether the exit space will be clear. He is not to blame if the exit is thereafter blocked by an unexpected event such as the intervening action of another vehicle cutting into his right of way without warning.
38 We are therefore of the view that the interests of justice are served by a review here. Applying the finding of fact to the Regulation, we believe that the Adjudicator has made a misdirection in viewing the circumstances as only proving a contravention subject to mitigation. We review the decision and find that no contravention occurred. The appeal is therefore allowed.
.36 In our view the Regulation, describing as it does a consequence that a vehicle has to stop in the box due to the presence of stationary vehicles, does not thereby impose a necessity upon a driver that he must wait outside the box to see if traffic ahead will become stationary before he decides to enter. The traffic may still be moving when s/he enters and yet a contravention still occur if the traffic stops thereafter. This is the driver’s risk in the judgment s/he exercises unless, as in Mr Essoo’s case, the driver could not have predicted the reason for the stopping of the vehicles ahead.
37 We have had regard to the relevant paragraph advising motorists in the Highway Code. The warning is “ You must not enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear.” However we are of the view that this steps rather beyond what is required by the Regulation. A driver may exercise a prediction in his judgment as to whether the exit space will be clear. He is not to blame if the exit is thereafter blocked by an unexpected event such as the intervening action of another vehicle cutting into his right of way without warning.
38 We are therefore of the view that the interests of justice are served by a review here. Applying the finding of fact to the Regulation, we believe that the Adjudicator has made a misdirection in viewing the circumstances as only proving a contravention subject to mitigation. We review the decision and find that no contravention occurred. The appeal is therefore allowed.
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/key-cases?f...
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/f...
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff