Should minor languages be propped up?
Discussion
Interesting article here - https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/oct/17/viki...
According to that 22% of Icelandic children struggle reading their own language. That's pretty heavy and may lead to an extinction level event for the Icelandic language in a few generations.
As English speakers we're probably not remotely qualified to discuss this, but it's an area I find very interesting.
Also as an English speaker I find the idea of something like this - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Académie_fran&#... laughable. Language isn't going to be controlled by a bunch of old men throwing down commandments. It's going to mutate forever.
Should locals fight to preserve their languages or let nature take its course and allow their possible expiry?
When you read about places like Nepal where there's a different language in every valley that just seems like a massive barrier rather than something to get dewy eyed over.
My own roots encompass Gaelic and Cornish. Do I pine to be speaking them with my kinfolk? Um, nope.
According to that 22% of Icelandic children struggle reading their own language. That's pretty heavy and may lead to an extinction level event for the Icelandic language in a few generations.
As English speakers we're probably not remotely qualified to discuss this, but it's an area I find very interesting.
Also as an English speaker I find the idea of something like this - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Académie_fran&#... laughable. Language isn't going to be controlled by a bunch of old men throwing down commandments. It's going to mutate forever.
Should locals fight to preserve their languages or let nature take its course and allow their possible expiry?
When you read about places like Nepal where there's a different language in every valley that just seems like a massive barrier rather than something to get dewy eyed over.
My own roots encompass Gaelic and Cornish. Do I pine to be speaking them with my kinfolk? Um, nope.
A common language is required for things to get done. Without it you face the hurdle of translation, or failing that, a complete blockage of progress.
It's nice for the cultural texture of the world that there's a thousand languages out there, but life wouldn't-half be easier if there was just one.
I'd nominate, umm, English.
It's nice for the cultural texture of the world that there's a thousand languages out there, but life wouldn't-half be easier if there was just one.
I'd nominate, umm, English.
bloomen said:
...22% of Icelandic children struggle reading their own language...
That implies 78% don't struggle. Which is probably higher than for a lot of other native languages.I don't know the answer but what is the figure in the UK?
Edited to add:
article said:
...42% of Icelanders not receiving a single book for Christmas...
How many people in the UK didn't get a single book last Christmas? (I got 5 if you are interested).Edited by FlossyThePig on Wednesday 17th October 19:05
techiedave said:
rydych chi'n anwybodus mochyn o Gymru sy'n cadw fy nheftadaeth gyfun yn fyw yn bwysig, rydym yn hir am ddyddiau cymru annibynnol yn rhad ac am ddim o ganghennau'r ymerodraeth imperial
you are an ignorant Welsh pig who keeps my combined heritage alive important, we are long for independent free weddings of imperial empire branchesI lived full time on the Isle of Skye for 5 years and owned a house there for 13
We lived up the road from Sabhal mor ostaig, the Gaelic College.
Some schools were teaching in Gaelic, not just teaching Gaelic.
Whilst I aplaud their interest in maintaining their heritage, once out of the area I would expect the pupils to have a problem, however apparently many spoke English once out of school.
There was a very "patriotic" gentleman up on the island who would only employ people who spoke Gaelic and I knew a lady who was "forced" out of his employ as she was unable to learn the language. He is no longer with us however.
We lived up the road from Sabhal mor ostaig, the Gaelic College.
Some schools were teaching in Gaelic, not just teaching Gaelic.
Whilst I aplaud their interest in maintaining their heritage, once out of the area I would expect the pupils to have a problem, however apparently many spoke English once out of school.
There was a very "patriotic" gentleman up on the island who would only employ people who spoke Gaelic and I knew a lady who was "forced" out of his employ as she was unable to learn the language. He is no longer with us however.
Languages reflect the culture of those who speak them, and do not directly translate. This is why the Muslims say you haven't really read the Quran until you have read it in Arabic.
That being the case, if we allow languages to die, we allow Cultures to die.
For eg:
In English somebody might ask my name, to which I would respond "I'm called GG15G." ie Other people call me GG15G.
In French my response would be: "Je m'apelle GG15G." ie I call myself GG15G.
In Irish I would use the copula 'Is'. This is not strictly a verb per sé (as opposed to Bí the verb 'to be' and whose present participle is 'Tá'). 'Is' is used where things are permanent and unchangeable whereas 'Bi' is used for things that can change. I would also use the emphatic pronoun 'Mise', which is the emphatic version of the pronoun 'Mé' (Me). Unlike English where emphasis is appplied through vocal tone, in Irish, emphasis can come fom the actual word used.
Thus my answer would be: "Is mise GG15G." ie I am GG15G (and nobody else is despite the fact they might have the same name.
So, 3 very different Cultural answers to a common, single, question.
That being the case, if we allow languages to die, we allow Cultures to die.
For eg:
In English somebody might ask my name, to which I would respond "I'm called GG15G." ie Other people call me GG15G.
In French my response would be: "Je m'apelle GG15G." ie I call myself GG15G.
In Irish I would use the copula 'Is'. This is not strictly a verb per sé (as opposed to Bí the verb 'to be' and whose present participle is 'Tá'). 'Is' is used where things are permanent and unchangeable whereas 'Bi' is used for things that can change. I would also use the emphatic pronoun 'Mise', which is the emphatic version of the pronoun 'Mé' (Me). Unlike English where emphasis is appplied through vocal tone, in Irish, emphasis can come fom the actual word used.
Thus my answer would be: "Is mise GG15G." ie I am GG15G (and nobody else is despite the fact they might have the same name.
So, 3 very different Cultural answers to a common, single, question.
Skyedriver said:
I lived full time on the Isle of Skye for 5 years and owned a house there for 13
We lived up the road from Sabhal mor ostaig, the Gaelic College.
Some schools were teaching in Gaelic, not just teaching Gaelic.
This is not reasonable. The national language is English and British schoolkids should be taught primarily in English, in order that they stand the best chance of a good career in Britain, not just in their village.We lived up the road from Sabhal mor ostaig, the Gaelic College.
Some schools were teaching in Gaelic, not just teaching Gaelic.
Skyedriver said:
There was a very "patriotic" gentleman up on the island who would only employ people who spoke Gaelic and I knew a lady who was "forced" out of his employ as she was unable to learn the language. He is no longer with us however.
This is ok - it's his business. If it works for him that's fine. If it doesn't, it's his problem.I imagine the majority of people who believe a single language is the way forward only speak English.
Different languages enable different thinking. A single language would constrain us all to the same ideas.
As it stands, enough of the world speaks English to make it universal "enough" to communicate without us losing the diversity of thinking that other languages promote.
I speak a little Polish, and understand a little more than I can speak. This gives me a small gateway into other Slavic languages, and while I'm not familiar with Cyrillics, i can work my way around restaurant Russian.
English is a great and ever-changing language which absorbs many words from others, and positively leads when it comes to new words rooted in technology. But it is inconsistent in spelling, and has fearsome grammar (16 tenses) which many Brits don't even understand or use properly.
And I would argue that the sound of a softly-spoken Polish or Russian woman talking in her own language is music, especially if you don't understand her... Same for French, Italian, and many more.
OK, they're not minority languages but I am in favour of propping them all up as long as there are enthusiastic speakers alive.
Different languages enable different thinking. A single language would constrain us all to the same ideas.
As it stands, enough of the world speaks English to make it universal "enough" to communicate without us losing the diversity of thinking that other languages promote.
I speak a little Polish, and understand a little more than I can speak. This gives me a small gateway into other Slavic languages, and while I'm not familiar with Cyrillics, i can work my way around restaurant Russian.
English is a great and ever-changing language which absorbs many words from others, and positively leads when it comes to new words rooted in technology. But it is inconsistent in spelling, and has fearsome grammar (16 tenses) which many Brits don't even understand or use properly.
And I would argue that the sound of a softly-spoken Polish or Russian woman talking in her own language is music, especially if you don't understand her... Same for French, Italian, and many more.
OK, they're not minority languages but I am in favour of propping them all up as long as there are enthusiastic speakers alive.
Edited by Watchman on Wednesday 17th October 22:34
FlossyThePig said:
bloomen said:
...22% of Icelandic children struggle reading their own language...
That implies 78% don't struggle. Which is probably higher than for a lot of other native languages.I really think it's possible that younglings there may simply not bother with Icelandic content at all and go straight to English especially when there's so much more out there.
For a Brit the idea is barking. Far less in that case.
Watchman said:
I imagine the majority of people who believe a single language is the way forward only speak English.
Different languages enable different thinking. A single language would constrain us all to the same ideas.
As it stands, enough of the world speaks English to make it universal "enough" to communicate without us losing the diversity of thinking that other languages promote.
What type of ideas (aside from perhaps political and ideological "them and us" type) are borne out of the fact that somebody can speak more than one language?Different languages enable different thinking. A single language would constrain us all to the same ideas.
As it stands, enough of the world speaks English to make it universal "enough" to communicate without us losing the diversity of thinking that other languages promote.
Surely language is a means of communicating ideas, not the basis on which they are formed.
Edited by Moonhawk on Thursday 18th October 07:13
bloomen said:
Should locals fight to preserve their languages or let nature take its course and allow their possible expiry?
Language is a means of communication. If a language isn't in common use, it should not be enforced just to artificially keep it alive.Take Welsh as an example - who does the compulsory teaching of Welsh language in schools and compulsory Welsh on signs really benefit, aside from perhaps Welsh nats?
Welsh is a good example of a language which had it not been for the frankly ridiculous amounts of money being spent by the Welsh Assembly (over £150millon a year) would now be a very very minor language spoken by barely a few thousand people in middle/north Wales.
As far as I am aware Welsh is compulsory for school kids so that the Welsh Assembly can claim a quarter of the population speak the language, that to me is like saying someone in England who can say Bonjour is a French speaker.
Regarding the Icelandic situation, circa 20% doesn't seem an issue and doesn't mean the kids are illiterate, i suspect that the younger generations who have had wider access to information in other languages have realised that speaking more commonly used languages is beneficial to them.
As far as I am aware Welsh is compulsory for school kids so that the Welsh Assembly can claim a quarter of the population speak the language, that to me is like saying someone in England who can say Bonjour is a French speaker.
Regarding the Icelandic situation, circa 20% doesn't seem an issue and doesn't mean the kids are illiterate, i suspect that the younger generations who have had wider access to information in other languages have realised that speaking more commonly used languages is beneficial to them.
Watchman said:
Different languages enable different thinking. A single language would constrain us all to the same ideas.
Exactly this. Another problem is if a language dies out, you lose access to the wealth of cultural information in its literature. Icelandic is a good example - there are vast amounts of fascinating literature dating back many hundreds of years that would be simply inaccessible if the language were impenetrable.I'm learning Icelandic at the moment, it's a hard language (possibly one of the reasons why it's in decline - the easier a language is, the wider the uptake among non-native speakers). It's not just Icelandic people reading less though, I don't think - all people are reading less (well, fewer books anyway). For that you can blame TV, the Internet, gaming - all kinds of pastimes that take up time that people would have spent reading a few decades ago.
aka_kerrly said:
Welsh is a good example of a language which had it not been for the frankly ridiculous amounts of money being spent by the Welsh Assembly (over £150millon a year) would now be a very very minor language spoken by barely a few thousand people in middle/north Wales.
Not true. Welsh is actively spoken as the language of choice in the west of Wales, it's not being propped up by the Welsh Assembly. And the fact it's not more widely spoken is a direct result of English intervention. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Not So promoting the language is the least the nation can do, after trying to kill it!There's nothing wrong in having pride in a minority language, and encouraging its survival.
aka_kerrly said:
Welsh is a good example of a language which had it not been for the frankly ridiculous amounts of money being spent by the Welsh Assembly (over £150millon a year) would now be a very very minor language spoken by barely a few thousand people in middle/north Wales.
As far as I am aware Welsh is compulsory for school kids so that the Welsh Assembly can claim a quarter of the population speak the language, that to me is like saying someone in England who can say Bonjour is a French speaker.
Regarding the Icelandic situation, circa 20% doesn't seem an issue and doesn't mean the kids are illiterate, i suspect that the younger generations who have had wider access to information in other languages have realised that speaking more commonly used languages is beneficial to them.
That's not true though is it?As far as I am aware Welsh is compulsory for school kids so that the Welsh Assembly can claim a quarter of the population speak the language, that to me is like saying someone in England who can say Bonjour is a French speaker.
Regarding the Icelandic situation, circa 20% doesn't seem an issue and doesn't mean the kids are illiterate, i suspect that the younger generations who have had wider access to information in other languages have realised that speaking more commonly used languages is beneficial to them.
I live and work in N.Wales, yes it was compulsory to study Welsh from 5-16, can I speak it, no; your point would mean 100% of the population can speak it though wouldn't it? If we all had to study it in school and subsequently can only say one word in Welsh to qualify as a "speaker"; bar those who move here from the rest of Britain.
A few of my colleagues in the office are first language Welsh and obviously fluent English as well, all of those first language Welsh were also educated in Welsh and raised speaking Welsh.
I wouldn't suggest it is a minor language in some areas of West and North West Wales (granted as a % of a total) in most cases it has always been the primary language which was only supressed because of the invading English.
Gassing Station | The Lounge | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff