Downgraded software service on electronic goods
Discussion
Inspired by another thread and just wondering the legal position.The thread in question was about a pile of Amazon Alexa/Dot devices, but I was thinking along the lines of a "Smart" TV I bought.
Say you buy a piece of electronics. It is advertised as having feature X. In my case X was the ability to watch youtube on the TV, but in the other thread it was the ability to store and stream your music using the Amazon Music Storage service.
The manufacturer in both cases pulled the plug on these services. Amazon retired the Music Storage service, so you now have to subscribe to another streaming service (with associated cost). In my case the youtube feature stopped working (alongside most of the "Smart" features as the manufacturer) as youtube moved on and the manufacturer stopped providing updates to the TV.
Is there any consumer rights here, given you paid for Y because it can do X, and it no longer does X?
Say you buy a piece of electronics. It is advertised as having feature X. In my case X was the ability to watch youtube on the TV, but in the other thread it was the ability to store and stream your music using the Amazon Music Storage service.
The manufacturer in both cases pulled the plug on these services. Amazon retired the Music Storage service, so you now have to subscribe to another streaming service (with associated cost). In my case the youtube feature stopped working (alongside most of the "Smart" features as the manufacturer) as youtube moved on and the manufacturer stopped providing updates to the TV.
Is there any consumer rights here, given you paid for Y because it can do X, and it no longer does X?
Order66 said:
TooMany2cvs said:
The change is because of a third party's changes. I bet there's some small-print that covers that.
Yeah, I get that for the TV, but for the Amazon devices which are completely Amazon?If you strip out all the legalese then they all say something along the lines of "this device may or may not do anything that it was advertised to do. In fact you'll be lucky if it works at all, and when it inevitably stops doing anything useful after a few months it's definitely not our fault. But it'll look nice as a paperweight".
I jest of course but pretty much, so long as it fulfils its primary function, then there will undoubtedly be sufficient clauses in the small print such that the details of the ancillary capabilities are effectively optional extras.
Perhaps there should be a minimum support period for electronic devices like TV's (firmware so they remain fully functional)
But technology moves on and where third party apps are involved the device manufacturer has no control over them.
BBC get the hump and a few bytes changed in the app and it's goodbye to IPlayer on any devices or manufacturers they don't like.
Where do you draw the line, 5 years, 10 years?
Should Iplayer still work on your ten year old smart TV?
What about the valve radio in your 1957 Ford?
It's just a risk we all take.. Annoying though..
But technology moves on and where third party apps are involved the device manufacturer has no control over them.
BBC get the hump and a few bytes changed in the app and it's goodbye to IPlayer on any devices or manufacturers they don't like.
Where do you draw the line, 5 years, 10 years?
Should Iplayer still work on your ten year old smart TV?
What about the valve radio in your 1957 Ford?
It's just a risk we all take.. Annoying though..
TooMany2cvs said:
The change is because of a third party's changes. I bet there's some small-print that covers that.
Actually I'm gonna come back to this. Surely the small-print is irrelevant in the case of a Smart TV. In my case, I walked into currys, bought the TV, paid at the till and put it in my car. There was no "small print" to be viewed, it wasn't offered at point of sale, so surely anything in T&Cs is post-contractual and therefore unenforceable. So therefore do my satutory rights not apply? Functionality in the item has stopped working within 18months, therefore it is defective (not through wear and tear) and can therefore be returned?I've never bought an Alexa, but are its T&Cs presented at point of sale, or are they wrapped up in the general T&Cs? I was under the impression that the timing of all these T&Cs was important, and they can't simply present/change them after the sale - even if software makes it easy to do so.
I had something similar.
In mid 2016 I bought a pair of Y-Cam CCTV cameras - I chose them primarily because they offered free 7 day rolling cloud storage. If you wanted longer, you had to pay a subscription but they were sold as having free 7 day cloud storage for life.
Unfortunately, Y-Cam discovered this was a flawed business model and very few people wanted to pay for longer storage. They therefore announced an annual charge per camera. This was over a year after I'd purchased them and they were no longer under warranty.
I contacted Amazon and explained the situation. Got a returns label and sent them back for a full refund.
In mid 2016 I bought a pair of Y-Cam CCTV cameras - I chose them primarily because they offered free 7 day rolling cloud storage. If you wanted longer, you had to pay a subscription but they were sold as having free 7 day cloud storage for life.
Unfortunately, Y-Cam discovered this was a flawed business model and very few people wanted to pay for longer storage. They therefore announced an annual charge per camera. This was over a year after I'd purchased them and they were no longer under warranty.
I contacted Amazon and explained the situation. Got a returns label and sent them back for a full refund.
This is exactly why I stopped buying Samsung Android devices - they were always either very late on OS upgrades, or they never happened. A new 8” Samsung tablet I bought was on KitKat from the box and never got any upgrade at all. In comparison, a cheap Motorola got updates on a regular basis, usually within days of new software being released by Android.
Apple might be a bit pricey but at least they give regular OS updates, even to legacy models
Apple might be a bit pricey but at least they give regular OS updates, even to legacy models
Had it with our 'smart' TV where Skype, Netflix, You Tube have all ceased to be supported over a period of time - in the case of Skype about a year after buying it, the rest gradually. This was on a £2.5k plasma TV. Firmware support was woeful from day one, but quite clearly different manufacturers have a different take on how key the smart bit is to the functionality of a TV.
I got annoyed about it at the time (the Skype functionality was quite useful for VCing family from the sofa so we could all interact with grandparents etc) but frankly there's not much you can do about it, as said above. A simple firmware update to stop the TV trying to update the channels every single day took nearly 2 years to be delivered by the manufacturer. Dealing with Netflix changing something in its server setup so the TV couldn't talk to our account any more was beyond them - had to switch to using our YouView box instead.
It's still a really good device for viewing pictures on - we now don't rely on it as a source AT ALL, nor for sound. I had it calibrated so I'm damned if I'm buying another one until this one dies!
I got annoyed about it at the time (the Skype functionality was quite useful for VCing family from the sofa so we could all interact with grandparents etc) but frankly there's not much you can do about it, as said above. A simple firmware update to stop the TV trying to update the channels every single day took nearly 2 years to be delivered by the manufacturer. Dealing with Netflix changing something in its server setup so the TV couldn't talk to our account any more was beyond them - had to switch to using our YouView box instead.
It's still a really good device for viewing pictures on - we now don't rely on it as a source AT ALL, nor for sound. I had it calibrated so I'm damned if I'm buying another one until this one dies!
Order66 said:
Indeed, without these they would have no other way to render perfectly good hardware immediatey obsolete
Or at least slow the CPU down for you as a free update service!I'm currently fighting the 'pay forever' software model on many fronts so my telly is the least of my worries!
Order66 said:
Inspired by another thread and just wondering the legal position.The thread in question was about a pile of Amazon Alexa/Dot devices, but I was thinking along the lines of a "Smart" TV I bought.
Say you buy a piece of electronics. It is advertised as having feature X. In my case X was the ability to watch youtube on the TV, but in the other thread it was the ability to store and stream your music using the Amazon Music Storage service.
The manufacturer in both cases pulled the plug on these services. Amazon retired the Music Storage service, so you now have to subscribe to another streaming service (with associated cost). In my case the youtube feature stopped working (alongside most of the "Smart" features as the manufacturer) as youtube moved on and the manufacturer stopped providing updates to the TV.
Is there any consumer rights here, given you paid for Y because it can do X, and it no longer does X?
You're thinking back to the old days in the twentieth century, when you could buy something and actually own it, rather than just get a licence to use it, until the manufacturer decides it's time you bought a new one.Say you buy a piece of electronics. It is advertised as having feature X. In my case X was the ability to watch youtube on the TV, but in the other thread it was the ability to store and stream your music using the Amazon Music Storage service.
The manufacturer in both cases pulled the plug on these services. Amazon retired the Music Storage service, so you now have to subscribe to another streaming service (with associated cost). In my case the youtube feature stopped working (alongside most of the "Smart" features as the manufacturer) as youtube moved on and the manufacturer stopped providing updates to the TV.
Is there any consumer rights here, given you paid for Y because it can do X, and it no longer does X?
Order66 said:
Actually I'm gonna come back to this. Surely the small-print is irrelevant in the case of a Smart TV. In my case, I walked into currys, bought the TV, paid at the till and put it in my car. There was no "small print" to be viewed, it wasn't offered at point of sale, so surely anything in T&Cs is post-contractual and therefore unenforceable.
I'll wager you were asked to accept T&Cs before enabling and using the smart features. I have a Sony Android TV and even on day one, the "smart" features weren't a patch on a £30 Fire TV Stick or an Apple TV. The only thing that works well is the integration with Google Play, but even then a Chromecast will outperform it.
Buy for the panel, plug in whatever smart stuff you want then replace when they are obsolete. That's the disposable world we are in.
vitesse2000 said:
This is exactly why I stopped buying Samsung Android devices - they were always either very late on OS upgrades, or they never happened. A new 8” Samsung tablet I bought was on KitKat from the box and never got any upgrade at all. In comparison, a cheap Motorola got updates on a regular basis, usually within days of new software being released by Android.
Apple might be a bit pricey but at least they give regular OS updates, even to legacy models
I prefer the Samsung model. They won't release updates until they are fit for purpose, and when an update is not suitable they leave the phone operational. That's why my Galaxy S2 still functions perfectly well as a spare phone.Apple might be a bit pricey but at least they give regular OS updates, even to legacy models
We bought 3 Google Nexus tablets. A little over 2 years later an OS update rendered them useless. Very very slow and almost impossible to use. Their support forums were full of users with the same problem. Google wouldn't even acknowledge the problem.
Apple are no different. OS5 rendered my iPad an unstable mess they could barely run safari. I sold it on only to be told by the buyer that Apple had stopped any new accounts being created for older ipads, so it was now tied to my account and useless to a new user. Checking on line this turned out to be true.
Apple had in effect killed a perfectly serviceable bit of hardware through software updates. That should not be legal.
Ken Figenus said:
Order66 said:
Indeed, without these they would have no other way to render perfectly good hardware immediatey obsolete
Or at least slow the CPU down for you as a free update service!The iOS 5/original iPad screwup was a debacle to be sure, but that was a very long time ago.
In general, if you want a device to get software updates for years to come, buy an Apple device. The iPhone 5S and iPad Air from 2013 got an upgrade to iOS 12 recently.
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 22 October 06:50
Best thing to do is read the ToS.
It happened with Sony a few years ago with the PS3. Early models had the ability to install Linux as a secondary OS. Sony removed it from newer models and with a firmware update, disabled it from older models.
They actually lost a class action lawsuit and had to pay out about $60 to up to 10,000,000 customers.
It happened with Sony a few years ago with the PS3. Early models had the ability to install Linux as a secondary OS. Sony removed it from newer models and with a firmware update, disabled it from older models.
They actually lost a class action lawsuit and had to pay out about $60 to up to 10,000,000 customers.
98elise said:
I prefer the Samsung model. They won't release updates until they are fit for purpose, and when an update is not suitable they leave the phone operational. That's why my Galaxy S2 still functions perfectly well as a spare phone.
We bought 3 Google Nexus tablets. A little over 2 years later an OS update rendered them useless. Very very slow and almost impossible to use. Their support forums were full of users with the same problem. Google wouldn't even acknowledge the problem.
Apple are no different. OS5 rendered my iPad an unstable mess they could barely run safari. I sold it on only to be told by the buyer that Apple had stopped any new accounts being created for older ipads, so it was now tied to my account and useless to a new user. Checking on line this turned out to be true.
Apple had in effect killed a perfectly serviceable bit of hardware through software updates. That should not be legal.
I had/have a similar situation with an Asus tablet...bought with Android 4.1 installed and it worked fine...updated itself via an OTA update and the wifi card became intolerably slow. Asus do not do updated drivers and washed their hands of the matter. I can (and have) do a factory reset back to 4.1 and the wifi works again...unfortunately, though, a lot of other things do not as the OS is too old and newer apps do not support that far back.We bought 3 Google Nexus tablets. A little over 2 years later an OS update rendered them useless. Very very slow and almost impossible to use. Their support forums were full of users with the same problem. Google wouldn't even acknowledge the problem.
Apple are no different. OS5 rendered my iPad an unstable mess they could barely run safari. I sold it on only to be told by the buyer that Apple had stopped any new accounts being created for older ipads, so it was now tied to my account and useless to a new user. Checking on line this turned out to be true.
Apple had in effect killed a perfectly serviceable bit of hardware through software updates. That should not be legal.
So I replaced it with a Samsung Tab S2...when I bought it, it was expensive (for an 8" tablet) and had Android 5.0 installed. No updates were forthcoming and after a year (and Android 7.0 being released) I looked into it and found that there are at least 2 different motherboard versions...mine being the older didn't get the OTA update...fortunately I found a back-door route to install the official ROM...but 7.0 is the highest it will go. The current Tab S2 will support Android 8.0 at least, and looks identical!
Had I known that there were different versions of the same product, I would have insisted on a later firmware release...
fushion julz said:
I had/have a similar situation with an Asus tablet...bought with Android 4.1 installed and it worked fine...updated itself via an OTA update and the wifi card became intolerably slow. Asus do not do updated drivers and washed their hands of the matter. I can (and have) do a factory reset back to 4.1 and the wifi works again...unfortunately, though, a lot of other things do not as the OS is too old and newer apps do not support that far back.
So I replaced it with a Samsung Tab S2...when I bought it, it was expensive (for an 8" tablet) and had Android 5.0 installed. No updates were forthcoming and after a year (and Android 7.0 being released) I looked into it and found that there are at least 2 different motherboard versions...mine being the older didn't get the OTA update...fortunately I found a back-door route to install the official ROM...but 7.0 is the highest it will go. The current Tab S2 will support Android 8.0 at least, and looks identical!
Had I known that there were different versions of the same product, I would have insisted on a later firmware release...
Have a look at the Apple iPad next time?So I replaced it with a Samsung Tab S2...when I bought it, it was expensive (for an 8" tablet) and had Android 5.0 installed. No updates were forthcoming and after a year (and Android 7.0 being released) I looked into it and found that there are at least 2 different motherboard versions...mine being the older didn't get the OTA update...fortunately I found a back-door route to install the official ROM...but 7.0 is the highest it will go. The current Tab S2 will support Android 8.0 at least, and looks identical!
Had I known that there were different versions of the same product, I would have insisted on a later firmware release...
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