Family dispute - deceased ashes
Discussion
A horrible situation all-round.
I'll summarise-
Mother-in-law diagnosed with cancer in March of this year, sadly passed away in August despite an expectancy from doctors of 12 months.
Her partner, married in 2009, not the father of my wife, but next of kin.
Unfortunately said partner is disliked by the entire family, of his own doing. A manipulative man who used to be abusive (physically & mentally) and has been accused of spiking drinks of the now deceased mother-in-law. Just to paint a picture - not a nice man.
Accommodating during those last days and weeks as everyone obviously wanted peace for my mother-in-law. Everyone upped their 'tolerance threshold' for the family ar$shole during this difficult time.
Roll-around to week 9 after the death.
The deceased had always wanted to have their remains put to rest with that of their parents - the conditions and relevant permissions of which have been obtained by her sister.
The husband is withholding the ashes in defiance, claiming he is still in mourning.
I say claiming with trepidation, however it should be noted that this man is already dating and has booked himself a holiday over Christmas using the contents of the deceased's bank account. All the while, taking extended absence from work as he is not 'mentally stable'. Playing the game.
There are also possessions of sentimental value within the household to which the husband is the only one with access. The valuable items - some jewellery - has already been sold-off to one of those cash-for-gold places, with no consultation to either of the deceased's two daughters or son.
Clearly, the husband is next of kin.
However, he has since threatened to 'scatter the ashes without the family's knowledge at an undisclosed location'. Quite why he wants to bring so much grief upon a grieving family I can't contemplate.
I've spoken to a close friend who studied family law and he says that there is little we can do. We can write a legal letter threatening court action, but this would obviously be a last resort and perhaps the final nail in the coffin (excuse the awful pun) to encourage him to carry out his threat.
My wife and the rest of the family just want to put their mothers' remains in the ground, where she wanted to be.
Can the next-of-kin really take ownership of the remains? I've been doing lots of reading, but cannot find anything concise.
Over to you, PH
I'll summarise-
Mother-in-law diagnosed with cancer in March of this year, sadly passed away in August despite an expectancy from doctors of 12 months.
Her partner, married in 2009, not the father of my wife, but next of kin.
Unfortunately said partner is disliked by the entire family, of his own doing. A manipulative man who used to be abusive (physically & mentally) and has been accused of spiking drinks of the now deceased mother-in-law. Just to paint a picture - not a nice man.
Accommodating during those last days and weeks as everyone obviously wanted peace for my mother-in-law. Everyone upped their 'tolerance threshold' for the family ar$shole during this difficult time.
Roll-around to week 9 after the death.
The deceased had always wanted to have their remains put to rest with that of their parents - the conditions and relevant permissions of which have been obtained by her sister.
The husband is withholding the ashes in defiance, claiming he is still in mourning.
I say claiming with trepidation, however it should be noted that this man is already dating and has booked himself a holiday over Christmas using the contents of the deceased's bank account. All the while, taking extended absence from work as he is not 'mentally stable'. Playing the game.
There are also possessions of sentimental value within the household to which the husband is the only one with access. The valuable items - some jewellery - has already been sold-off to one of those cash-for-gold places, with no consultation to either of the deceased's two daughters or son.
Clearly, the husband is next of kin.
However, he has since threatened to 'scatter the ashes without the family's knowledge at an undisclosed location'. Quite why he wants to bring so much grief upon a grieving family I can't contemplate.
I've spoken to a close friend who studied family law and he says that there is little we can do. We can write a legal letter threatening court action, but this would obviously be a last resort and perhaps the final nail in the coffin (excuse the awful pun) to encourage him to carry out his threat.
My wife and the rest of the family just want to put their mothers' remains in the ground, where she wanted to be.
Can the next-of-kin really take ownership of the remains? I've been doing lots of reading, but cannot find anything concise.
Over to you, PH
Personally, and I know it would be difficult, from the sounds of it I think you and all your family should consider cutting all ties with this person. If the estate has passed to him, and he is behaving like an asshole then I guess there is little you can do (although IANAL), other than not give him the satisfaction of showing him it's got to you all.
Perhaps hold a symbolic ceremony where the MiL wanted to be laid to rest?
(FWIW, I suspect me and Mrs ZS could end up in a not so dis-similar situation with her recently deceased father, so you have my sympathy)
Perhaps hold a symbolic ceremony where the MiL wanted to be laid to rest?
(FWIW, I suspect me and Mrs ZS could end up in a not so dis-similar situation with her recently deceased father, so you have my sympathy)
Wacky Racer said:
I really don't think there is anything you can do other than go round and try and reason with him.
Sad situation for sure.
If he's that much of an arse it'll only encourage him.Sad situation for sure.
The loss of heirlooms is bad enough, the ashes way worse. I'd be tempted to break in and steal them. How much bother can you get into?
Mandat said:
If you know that the house will be unoccupied over Christmas, use this as an opportunity to try to recover the ashes.
This.Decant Mum into a new "home" and refil urn with the ashes from your BBQ. Mum goes where she wanted, the family are happy and step pop is none the wiser.
I have a similar ish situation with my late mother in law's ashes.
Mother in law always stated she wanted to be buried with her late husband, (local to me), and not cremated,
My wife's sister managed to get her to move closer to her a few years ago.
Mother in law died last year, sister in law declares she asked to be cremated. We agree to keep the peace.
We ask for ashes so they can be buried with her late husband.
Sister in law declares mother on law asked to be buried with her parents, not her husband.
We ask for copy of will. After months of wrangling, will appears, amended just before she died, cutting my wife and her brother out and making sister in law beneficiary. No mention of ashes or where she wished to be buried. Brother in law currently contesting will.
Fortunately, although sister in law has the ashes,I have the cremation certificate and have notified crematorium not to issue a duplicate due to situation.
Stalemate.
People are
s. None bigger than my fking sister in law.
Mother in law always stated she wanted to be buried with her late husband, (local to me), and not cremated,
My wife's sister managed to get her to move closer to her a few years ago.
Mother in law died last year, sister in law declares she asked to be cremated. We agree to keep the peace.
We ask for ashes so they can be buried with her late husband.
Sister in law declares mother on law asked to be buried with her parents, not her husband.
We ask for copy of will. After months of wrangling, will appears, amended just before she died, cutting my wife and her brother out and making sister in law beneficiary. No mention of ashes or where she wished to be buried. Brother in law currently contesting will.
Fortunately, although sister in law has the ashes,I have the cremation certificate and have notified crematorium not to issue a duplicate due to situation.
Stalemate.
People are
s. None bigger than my fking sister in law.As has been mentioned above, a key question is whether or not your MIL made a Will. Sometimes (though not often) a Will contains instructions by the testator as to disposal of their remains. Of more practical importance is that the executor appointed in the Will is the person who would normally have authority to dispose of the remains.
However, nobody actually `owns' either the body or the ashes, as the law says it's impossible for anyone to own a body or its cremated remains. Consequently, it's technically impossible for anyone to steal them, so if you have access to the ashes you might consider `liberating' them. But be careful, you can take the ashes themselves, but not their container (on the assumption the container belongs to the toerag).
Perhaps surprisingly, there have actually been court cases as to where a burial should take place and where the ashes of a child should be deposited. This is a useful brief article - https://www.ashfords.co.uk/news-and-events/general...
In theory, therefore, you could take court action, but I can't see that being a practical option. It's possible a solicitors' letter threatening such action might work, but I suppose, as you say, it's equally possible that it would just provoke toerag into doing the very thing you're trying to prevent.
However, nobody actually `owns' either the body or the ashes, as the law says it's impossible for anyone to own a body or its cremated remains. Consequently, it's technically impossible for anyone to steal them, so if you have access to the ashes you might consider `liberating' them. But be careful, you can take the ashes themselves, but not their container (on the assumption the container belongs to the toerag).
Perhaps surprisingly, there have actually been court cases as to where a burial should take place and where the ashes of a child should be deposited. This is a useful brief article - https://www.ashfords.co.uk/news-and-events/general...
In theory, therefore, you could take court action, but I can't see that being a practical option. It's possible a solicitors' letter threatening such action might work, but I suppose, as you say, it's equally possible that it would just provoke toerag into doing the very thing you're trying to prevent.
Thanks folks, confirms my thoughts / research so far. My wife has even considered the frankly absurd-sounding suggestion of breaking and entering...even speaking with a local police officer to see what the worst outcome could be for her!
Unfortunately this chap cannot be reasoned with.
Sad all around.
Unfortunately this chap cannot be reasoned with.
Sad all around.
C.A.R. said:
...however it should be noted that this man ... has booked himself a holiday over Christmas using the contents of the deceased's bank account.
There are also possessions of sentimental value within the household to which the husband is the only one with access. The valuable items - some jewellery - has already been sold-off to one of those cash-for-gold places, with no consultation to either of the deceased's two daughters or son.
If there is a will, and she did leave it to her kids, then it's simple theft.There are also possessions of sentimental value within the household to which the husband is the only one with access. The valuable items - some jewellery - has already been sold-off to one of those cash-for-gold places, with no consultation to either of the deceased's two daughters or son.
But you don't mention a will, so I presume there isn't one. Intestacy rules apply.
If she had <£250k, then her entire estate passes to her spouse.
(Above £250k, the first £250k + all "personal possessions" + 50% of the rest go to him; the rest equally between the kids.)
So... it's his jewellery, and his money. He can do whatever he likes with it. If the mother wanted her kids to have it, a will is the way to do that.
As far as the ashes go... he's playing a power game. How much importance you choose to place on the ashes defines how much power you give him. They're just ashes, no more. Go to the parents' grave, and have a quiet moment thinking about her, along with whatever other ritual makes you all feel happy. The ashes are as important in that as you want them to be - or not. Take your victory over him by not giving him the power or the satisfaction.
Thing is, I don't think splitting the ashes would be very appealing on either side.
As said above, the guy was manipulative and controlling whilst she was alive and this is the last little bit of control he has. After the remains have been put to rest in accordance with the deceased's wishes then we will sever all ties with this man, just as his family before did when he had the affair which led to this relationship.
The saddest part being that he's already looking for his next "victim" whilst claiming all the paid leave he can get.
The family have consulted a solicitor off-the-record who has said it may be possible to play on his own claims of "mental instability" in that he really shouldn't be in charge of the remains disposal. I can't see it myself.
As said above, the guy was manipulative and controlling whilst she was alive and this is the last little bit of control he has. After the remains have been put to rest in accordance with the deceased's wishes then we will sever all ties with this man, just as his family before did when he had the affair which led to this relationship.
The saddest part being that he's already looking for his next "victim" whilst claiming all the paid leave he can get.
The family have consulted a solicitor off-the-record who has said it may be possible to play on his own claims of "mental instability" in that he really shouldn't be in charge of the remains disposal. I can't see it myself.
Sebastian Tombs said:
Is he an older gentleman?
Would perhaps a quiet mention of some fisticuffs be persuasive?
Not that I would condone such an action, but bullies tend to back right down when they think they might get a pasting.
Not a good idea, when you see 85 year olds seeing off shop robbers. Be assured, some older people will fight like the devil.Would perhaps a quiet mention of some fisticuffs be persuasive?
Not that I would condone such an action, but bullies tend to back right down when they think they might get a pasting.
That aside, I assume there is no will stating her wishes? I assume that no-one else registered her death and dealt with the funeral directors? I know that the funeral directors would only release my mum's ashes and jewellery to me, as I was the one who arranged it with them. There was never any issue with my brothers, that was just their protocol.
C.A.R. said:
A horrible situation all-round.
I'll summarise-
Mother-in-law diagnosed with cancer in March of this year, sadly passed away in August despite an expectancy from doctors of 12 months.
Her partner, married in 2009, not the father of my wife, but next of kin.
Unfortunately said partner is disliked by the entire family, of his own doing. A manipulative man who used to be abusive (physically & mentally) and has been accused of spiking drinks of the now deceased mother-in-law. Just to paint a picture - not a nice man.
Accommodating during those last days and weeks as everyone obviously wanted peace for my mother-in-law. Everyone upped their 'tolerance threshold' for the family ar$shole during this difficult time.
Roll-around to week 9 after the death.
The deceased had always wanted to have their remains put to rest with that of their parents - the conditions and relevant permissions of which have been obtained by her sister.
The husband is withholding the ashes in defiance, claiming he is still in mourning.
I say claiming with trepidation, however it should be noted that this man is already dating and has booked himself a holiday over Christmas using the contents of the deceased's bank account. All the while, taking extended absence from work as he is not 'mentally stable'. Playing the game.
There are also possessions of sentimental value within the household to which the husband is the only one with access. The valuable items - some jewellery - has already been sold-off to one of those cash-for-gold places, with no consultation to either of the deceased's two daughters or son.
Clearly, the husband is next of kin.
However, he has since threatened to 'scatter the ashes without the family's knowledge at an undisclosed location'. Quite why he wants to bring so much grief upon a grieving family I can't contemplate.
I've spoken to a close friend who studied family law and he says that there is little we can do. We can write a legal letter threatening court action, but this would obviously be a last resort and perhaps the final nail in the coffin (excuse the awful pun) to encourage him to carry out his threat.
My wife and the rest of the family just want to put their mothers' remains in the ground, where she wanted to be.
Can the next-of-kin really take ownership of the remains? I've been doing lots of reading, but cannot find anything concise.
Over to you, PH
Have you seen the Will? Is he the executor?I'll summarise-
Mother-in-law diagnosed with cancer in March of this year, sadly passed away in August despite an expectancy from doctors of 12 months.
Her partner, married in 2009, not the father of my wife, but next of kin.
Unfortunately said partner is disliked by the entire family, of his own doing. A manipulative man who used to be abusive (physically & mentally) and has been accused of spiking drinks of the now deceased mother-in-law. Just to paint a picture - not a nice man.
Accommodating during those last days and weeks as everyone obviously wanted peace for my mother-in-law. Everyone upped their 'tolerance threshold' for the family ar$shole during this difficult time.
Roll-around to week 9 after the death.
The deceased had always wanted to have their remains put to rest with that of their parents - the conditions and relevant permissions of which have been obtained by her sister.
The husband is withholding the ashes in defiance, claiming he is still in mourning.
I say claiming with trepidation, however it should be noted that this man is already dating and has booked himself a holiday over Christmas using the contents of the deceased's bank account. All the while, taking extended absence from work as he is not 'mentally stable'. Playing the game.
There are also possessions of sentimental value within the household to which the husband is the only one with access. The valuable items - some jewellery - has already been sold-off to one of those cash-for-gold places, with no consultation to either of the deceased's two daughters or son.
Clearly, the husband is next of kin.
However, he has since threatened to 'scatter the ashes without the family's knowledge at an undisclosed location'. Quite why he wants to bring so much grief upon a grieving family I can't contemplate.
I've spoken to a close friend who studied family law and he says that there is little we can do. We can write a legal letter threatening court action, but this would obviously be a last resort and perhaps the final nail in the coffin (excuse the awful pun) to encourage him to carry out his threat.
My wife and the rest of the family just want to put their mothers' remains in the ground, where she wanted to be.
Can the next-of-kin really take ownership of the remains? I've been doing lots of reading, but cannot find anything concise.
Over to you, PH
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