How long to get a national network of petrol stations
Discussion
...and what did people do until it was established?
Hi, I hope it's ok to launch straight into the forums with a question?
There is a lot of talk about electric cars and the chicken and egg situation with charging points. But what happened in the early days of ICE cars? Did people exhibit "range anxiety" and have to keep a map of petrol stations in the car?
Hi, I hope it's ok to launch straight into the forums with a question?
There is a lot of talk about electric cars and the chicken and egg situation with charging points. But what happened in the early days of ICE cars? Did people exhibit "range anxiety" and have to keep a map of petrol stations in the car?
I get where you are coming from on this.
As an example, before sales of diesel cars really started to take off in the mid / late 90s people were often concerned at the relative lack of availability of the black pump, sometimes having to use a dirty greasy pump, without shelter from wind and rain, intended primarily for big trucks.
As demand from car drivers increased diesel pumps began to appear alongside petrol pumps.
As an example, before sales of diesel cars really started to take off in the mid / late 90s people were often concerned at the relative lack of availability of the black pump, sometimes having to use a dirty greasy pump, without shelter from wind and rain, intended primarily for big trucks.
As demand from car drivers increased diesel pumps began to appear alongside petrol pumps.
TooMany2cvs said:
They didn't expect to do several-hundred-mile days as a matter of routine.
True, in the first series of Peaky blinders the journey from Birmingham to Worcester and back is seen as a epic requiring cars to be in tip top condition. Hundreds of people probably do this commute daily now, many more in the opposite direction...Comstock said:
But what happened in the early days of ICE cars? Did people exhibit "range anxiety" and have to keep a map of petrol stations in the car?
Yes they did. Hence why most pre-1930 vintage cars have at least once bracket on a running board for holding an extra two-gallon can of petrol. More usually you'd get one per side and sometimes one in the engine bay (very safe!). One of the functions of the AA and the RAC was to publish books listing where you could buy petrol, just as people have directories of charging stations and LPG pumps these days. Then these organisation began opening their own filling stations (or at least franchising them) before they were squeezed out by the dedicated fuel companies. As Roy C said, in the very early days you bought 'petroleum distillate' over the counter from chemists. By the 1910s there were enough cars for the village blacksmith/garage to have installed his own petrol pump on the kerb or round the back of a shed. Proper petrol stations began to be found in cities and large towns, and at major junctions in the 1920s - the infamous Black Cat roundabout at the meeting of the A1/A421 is named after the Black Cat Garage which was built there in 1922 to serve traffic on what was then the Great North Road. By the 1930s there was a decent national network of petrol stations and by the 1950s they were in virtually every village, even if it was just a single pump. Then they began to be driven out by the big forecourt garages.
But the real anxiety wasn't so much about fuel supply as the generally terrible reliability of cars. On unmetalled roads strewn with stone chips and horseshoe nails, and with pure rubber or zinc-oxide tyres (hence why really old tyres are white rather than black) punctures were a near-continual occurance (hence why, alongside the petrol cans, old cars carried at least two spare wheels/tyres, plus a couple of tyres on the back). With unsealed cooling systems it was normal for cars to lose water, especially if they boiled up climbing hills. So as well as petrol you also had to be sure of your water supply (the AA guide books could help here, too) and you'd sometimes find roadside taps at the top (or half-way up!) particularly fearsome climbs, although they were mostly there for the benefit of road locomotives and steam lorries.
It's a wonder that this whole Motor Car thing ever caught on...
Comstock said:
Did people exhibit "range anxiety" ?
Our Austin 7 has a small scuttle tank, one could get a shaped can for the front wing, we have a 2gal jerry can for LCES events. The Alvis 12/50 also has a scuttle tank, but has a reserve switch under dash, neither have a fuel gauge, both have calibrated sticks to dip the tank. I think Austin supplied an official one back in the day. Obviously still available next day for the A7 https://www.theaustinsevenworkshop.com/products/f0... The 20hp Rolls has a autovac and a rear tank, it is larger (20 gals - so 400mile range?) and has a gauge, although it is on the tank, at the back...I think that "your man" was meant to plan the journey and get the car fuelled before one set off.
In about 1930 people stated adding the Hobson tele-gage, which works by magic!
Roy C said:
Before petrol stations, Petroleum (AKA Motor Spirit) was sold in two gallon cans by chemists, blacksmiths and hardware shops.
The AA opened the first UK filling station at Aldermaston in 1919.
OK, Boots sell batteries so you should be OK.The AA opened the first UK filling station at Aldermaston in 1919.
I notice that more and more gadgets seem to be converging on using AAA cells rather than the bigger ones I remember from my youth. I wonder how many AAA cells a Tesla takes.
a8hex said:
I notice that more and more gadgets seem to be converging on using AAA cells rather than the bigger ones I remember from my youth. I wonder how many AAA cells a Tesla takes.
You joke, but the Model S and X use the same 18650 Lithium Ion cell format as your toothbrush or whatever. They've long been the absolute industry standard Li-Ion cell. It's just that there's an utter shedload of 'em... 8,256 in the 100kWh pack. Sure, there's various detail tickles to the design so Tesla use fairly high-capacity cells, but no reason you couldn't swap any 18650 for any other.The Model 3 uses a slightly different format - 2170 - 21mm diameter x 70mm length, rather than 18mm x 65mm, all 4.2v. The bigger format allows slightly better energy density in a built-up pack.
As we move inexorably over to more EV's which currently charge (Refuel) at a much slower rate, the viability of an onsite cafe/mini-mart etc becomes much better.
An enforced break for a twenty/thirty minute top up means they have your undivided attention and your wallet handy for riffling..
As the electrical supply to the site will be limited, they might also have control over all the charge points, and as more cars arrive the charge rate for all cars charging is reduced/manipulated by the site owner to remain within the max supply capabilities.
One car charging it gets a full 100kw (Or does it? They might set their own max charge rates to keep you on site for a minimum period!)
Or you might have to pay a kwh premium to leap frog other users or guarantee a non variable higher charge rate.
Ten cars charging, each car drops to 10kw
Strict first in first out policy, and at busy places the power infrastructure will have to be enormous to charge large numbers in reasonable periods. ..
HMM lots of scope for manipulation and sneaky marketing monetization ploys.. ..
Home charging has got to be a first for all owners on normal journeys where possible to avoid being caught in the above....
An enforced break for a twenty/thirty minute top up means they have your undivided attention and your wallet handy for riffling..
As the electrical supply to the site will be limited, they might also have control over all the charge points, and as more cars arrive the charge rate for all cars charging is reduced/manipulated by the site owner to remain within the max supply capabilities.
One car charging it gets a full 100kw (Or does it? They might set their own max charge rates to keep you on site for a minimum period!)
Or you might have to pay a kwh premium to leap frog other users or guarantee a non variable higher charge rate.
Ten cars charging, each car drops to 10kw
Strict first in first out policy, and at busy places the power infrastructure will have to be enormous to charge large numbers in reasonable periods. ..
HMM lots of scope for manipulation and sneaky marketing monetization ploys.. ..
Home charging has got to be a first for all owners on normal journeys where possible to avoid being caught in the above....
peterperkins said:
As the electrical supply to the site will be limited, they might also have control over all the charge points, and as more cars arrive the charge rate for all cars charging is reduced/manipulated by the site owner to remain within the max supply capabilities.
One car charging it gets a full 100kw (Or does it? They might set their own max charge rates to keep you on site for a minimum period!)
Or you might have to pay a kwh premium to leap frog other users or guarantee a non variable higher charge rate.
Ten cars charging, each car drops to 10kw
Strict first in first out policy, and at busy places the power infrastructure will have to be enormous to charge large numbers in reasonable periods. ..
Think about somewhere like your typical m'way services already... Oxford on the M40 already has 10 x 120KW Tesla superchargers and a brace of Ecotricity (93KW between them). Get that lot all going flat out at once, and that's 1.3MW.One car charging it gets a full 100kw (Or does it? They might set their own max charge rates to keep you on site for a minimum period!)
Or you might have to pay a kwh premium to leap frog other users or guarantee a non variable higher charge rate.
Ten cars charging, each car drops to 10kw
Strict first in first out policy, and at busy places the power infrastructure will have to be enormous to charge large numbers in reasonable periods. ..
Coincidentally, Oxford has the UK's largest solar farm "capable of powering 14,000 homes". It covers 230 acres, and produces 46MW. So... if 46MW is 14,000 homes, then 1.3MW is roughly the power requirement of 400 properties.
Or about the same as the nominal maximum output of one single full-size wind turbine.
http://www.nordex-online.com/fileadmin/MEDIA/Produ...
And that's to fast-charge just a dozen cars at once. Now think about how many go through the (extortionate, so distress-purchase-only) petrol station at Oxford in the same time as those fast-charges will take...
peterperkins said:
Home charging has got to be a first for all owners on normal journeys where possible to avoid being caught in the above....
Gawd help you if you don't have off-street parking at your house...As late as the 1960s, the Triumph Herald range came with a "reserve lever" on the fuel tank.
There wasn't a second tank, the lever just turned the pick up to reach the last dregs, and gave you another half a gallon.
So "range anxiety" still existed fifty years later, and probably still does, even on petrol cars
JOhn
There wasn't a second tank, the lever just turned the pick up to reach the last dregs, and gave you another half a gallon.
So "range anxiety" still existed fifty years later, and probably still does, even on petrol cars
JOhn
tapkaJohnD said:
As late as the 1960s, the Triumph Herald range came with a "reserve lever" on the fuel tank.
There wasn't a second tank, the lever just turned the pick up to reach the last dregs, and gave you another half a gallon.
So "range anxiety" still existed fifty years later, and probably still does, even on petrol cars
It was there for the exact same reason as modern cars have a low fuel light.There wasn't a second tank, the lever just turned the pick up to reach the last dregs, and gave you another half a gallon.
So "range anxiety" still existed fifty years later, and probably still does, even on petrol cars
EV "range anxiety" was beautifully demonstrated by a conversation I had at the weekend with an acquaintance who drives a c.4yo Leaf. She lives in the town five miles <--- that way from here. Her daughter was visiting, and they'd visited the hills above the town five miles ---> that way from here. In all, probably about a 40 mile trip including a steep climb. I mentioned the rather beautiful valley the other side of the pass they'd driven up to. Add on another 40 miles to do a return trip down it. They said it sounded great, but they didn't want to risk running out of sparks - official range is about 80 miles... She was delighted to find out there was a charging point available at the foot of the hill - just ten miles from her home...
For SWMBO's b'day recently, we headed to St Davids and the Pembrokeshire coast for the day. In all, it was about a 300 mile round trip, with only a couple of non-trivial-sized conurbations en route. There's one public charger in St Davids.
Edited by TooMany2cvs on Wednesday 31st October 09:26
The answer to that question is that there were independent local petrol stations.
I can remember sitting in the back as a child in the 1970s to a Somerset petrol station that did not involve driving in to a large forecourt,
there was an attendant to fill up as you parked at the side of the road.
I can remember sitting in the back as a child in the 1970s to a Somerset petrol station that did not involve driving in to a large forecourt,
there was an attendant to fill up as you parked at the side of the road.
On this recharging malarky, I wonder what on earth will happen on "black" weekends here in France. These are when the world and its dog are all on the road together, notably the first and last weekend in July and August with the real peak end of July/beginning of August. Everyone is going/coming back from their annual holiday, and it is sometimes impossible even to park your car (and autoroute sites are large) let alone recharge it. Worse than Bank Holiday weekends in the UK by a long way.
mondeomk4 said:
The answer to that question is that there were independent local petrol stations.
I can remember sitting in the back as a child in the 1970s to a Somerset petrol station that did not involve driving in to a large forecourt,
there was an attendant to fill up as you parked at the side of the road.
My 1st job, in the mid-70s, was working at a country petrol station. Always referred to as "petrol stations" as against "fuel or "filling" stations as back then petrol made up the majority of the sales. Two, three and four star were the most common grades, we also sold five star which was pretty rare. Diesel was sold almost exclusively to vans, we also had a paraffin pump. You tend to forget how common paraffin still was back in the 70's and backed up of course by high profile TV advertising for the two main brands, I suspect most of us can recite the jingle for Esso Blue!I can remember sitting in the back as a child in the 1970s to a Somerset petrol station that did not involve driving in to a large forecourt,
there was an attendant to fill up as you parked at the side of the road.
As a pump attendant you had to get to know where car filling caps were. Various rear engine cars had to flip the bonnet to reveal their filling caps, we had Jags with left and right fillers, fillers behind fold down number plates on Fords and others and my all time favourite, as a disguised filler, the Snipe. We also did a lot of filling of cans and many of these were the "spare gallon" kept in the boot due to inaccurate/non-working gauges and that fact that many petrol stations only worked 9-5 with even shorter weekend working. Many petrol stations changed over from attendant to self-serve in the 70's as indeed was the case for where I worked, it changed over in 1979, I had left shortly before.
As an attendant we also checked oil and sold it from pint tins, we got a pay bonus for every can sold, truth be told I think quite a few of my customers departed over topped up! The other forecourt product that was stocked was Redex, "a couple of gallons and a shot" was a common customer shout although Redex seemed to disappear from forecourts in the 70's. Fuel was around 60p-70p a gallon and the inability of some drivers to position their cars in reach of the fuel hose made my smile back then, as it deed it does now, although of course most petrol stations have engineered out that ammussement by fitting extra long hoses!
Keep it stiff said:
Many petrol stations changed over from attendant to self-serve in the 70's as indeed was the case for where I worked, it changed over in 1979, I had left shortly before.
I recall when our aunt took us for a drive in a hire car when I was a child. She had to drive past several petrol stations to find one with an attendant as she was too scared to try and fill up herself! This must have been in the mid 80's as despite only being about five, I distinctly remember petrol being £1.51 a gallon.Do you remember the glass bubble on top of the pump? A friend back in the 60s used to serve the requisite number of gallons but after the customer had gone he'd drain down the hose into a can. Over a weekend's work he told me he had enough to run his Mini for the week. It doesn't apply now, but always checked to see that the glass bubble was full before being served!
Edit. If anyone lives near Fareham there used to be a Ford dealership next to Trinity church on West Street. It was pulled down at the end of the 50s but I always wonder if they removed the petrol tanks underneath before rebuilding! Last I saw it was a pound shop.
Edit. If anyone lives near Fareham there used to be a Ford dealership next to Trinity church on West Street. It was pulled down at the end of the 50s but I always wonder if they removed the petrol tanks underneath before rebuilding! Last I saw it was a pound shop.
Edited by lowdrag on Thursday 1st November 09:13
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