Parking Charge Notice - Help Please!
Discussion
I've just received a Parking Charge Notice (Notice to Keeper) from Euro Car Parks, member of BPA according to the Notice.
This relates to a period of 12 minutes when I pulled into a car park in Birmingham in the dark as I was lost and my SatNav was on the blink. I couldn't find anywhere to stop easily to work out where I was, so I pulled into the car park to sort myself out. This was on 27th October 2018. The ANPR shows my reg plate arriving at 19.15.24 and leaving again at 19.27.05 I didn't park in a space or get out of the car, I just stopped to look at the map, make a quick phone call and then set off again. I didn't see any signs re parking charges although they must have been there. I do remember the car park being very dark though - I didn't look around for notices, whether lit up or otherwise.
I realise that perhaps I should have looked for a machine, but as I wasn't intending to stay for any length of time, I didn't.
Looking at the appeals process and notes etc on here and ParkingCowboys' website, I'm thinking my best course of action is to question whether a £100 charge (£60 if paid in 14 days) is a fair and reasonable estimate of the landowner's loss. I see from the local council website that the charge would have been £1 for an hour's parking.
Can someone offer me some advice please? This was my first visit to Birmingham (and will hopefully be my last), so I'm not in a position to find out whether the notices are illuminated and clear.
This relates to a period of 12 minutes when I pulled into a car park in Birmingham in the dark as I was lost and my SatNav was on the blink. I couldn't find anywhere to stop easily to work out where I was, so I pulled into the car park to sort myself out. This was on 27th October 2018. The ANPR shows my reg plate arriving at 19.15.24 and leaving again at 19.27.05 I didn't park in a space or get out of the car, I just stopped to look at the map, make a quick phone call and then set off again. I didn't see any signs re parking charges although they must have been there. I do remember the car park being very dark though - I didn't look around for notices, whether lit up or otherwise.
I realise that perhaps I should have looked for a machine, but as I wasn't intending to stay for any length of time, I didn't.
Looking at the appeals process and notes etc on here and ParkingCowboys' website, I'm thinking my best course of action is to question whether a £100 charge (£60 if paid in 14 days) is a fair and reasonable estimate of the landowner's loss. I see from the local council website that the charge would have been £1 for an hour's parking.
Can someone offer me some advice please? This was my first visit to Birmingham (and will hopefully be my last), so I'm not in a position to find out whether the notices are illuminated and clear.
Bluesgirl said:
Looking at the appeals process and notes etc on here and ParkingCowboys' website, I'm thinking my best course of action is to question whether a £100 charge (£60 if paid in 14 days) is a fair and reasonable estimate of the landowner's loss. I see from the local council website that the charge would have been £1 for an hour's parking.
Can someone offer me some advice please? This was my first visit to Birmingham (and will hopefully be my last), so I'm not in a position to find out whether the notices are illuminated and clear.
The £100 charge was deemed reasonable at a very high profile supreme court case in 2015, so although that used to be a winner, it can only be used in very limited cases now.Can someone offer me some advice please? This was my first visit to Birmingham (and will hopefully be my last), so I'm not in a position to find out whether the notices are illuminated and clear.
It is arguable either way if you were "parked" or not - that debate could run and run,
The signage is usually worth throwing into a formal POPLA (2nd stage appeal), but your main point of appeal with EPC is compliance with POFA 2012 that allows them to hold the keeper liable.
There is no obligation to identify the driver, so don't say who it was, or state things like "I was only there for 2 minutes", or "I didn't see the signs" etc - this will make their job easier for claiming breach of contract against a person, but holding the keeper of the vehicle liable entails them meeting certain requirements of POFA 2012, which Euro Parking fail at.
Have a read of this, and pick out the points that they haven't met on the document you have received ,- https://www.parkingcowboys.co.uk/keeper-liability/
Keep your first appeal simple - it will get rejected, they always do, but the main purpose is to get a POPLA code to take it to formal appeal.
"I do not believe that you have complied with POFA 2012 in order to hold the keeper liable for this charge - please cancel or provide a POPLA code by return"
Once you have a POPLA code, then there are plenty of examples on MSE and Pepipoo of successful appeals - just tweak them to suit your circumstances.
You may wish to use other advice, or just write back.
‘I understand the driver was lost and pulled safely off the road to consult a Sat Nav and re-orientate themself. At no time was the car parked, nor did its temporary presence cause loss or unjustifiable inteference. I expect a rescinding of the charge within 14 days’
Date and ‘track and trace’ the letter.
‘I understand the driver was lost and pulled safely off the road to consult a Sat Nav and re-orientate themself. At no time was the car parked, nor did its temporary presence cause loss or unjustifiable inteference. I expect a rescinding of the charge within 14 days’
Date and ‘track and trace’ the letter.
keirik said:
You stopped for 12 minutes to make a phone call.
Ergo you used their car park.
It doesn't take 12 minutes to reset a sat nav and no amount of trying to tweak reality will fix that.
Pay up and admit you didn't get away with it this time.
Are you for real? Those circumstances require shelling out £60/£100?Ergo you used their car park.
It doesn't take 12 minutes to reset a sat nav and no amount of trying to tweak reality will fix that.
Pay up and admit you didn't get away with it this time.
You could park in a council car park for 6 hours with no ticket and only have to pay £30/£60.
This is a private company who dont follow the rules (POFA 2012) to hold the keeper liable, so why should they pay up?
If the car was stopped to either use the phone or fiddle with the sat nav then it was parked. In a car park. That you have to pay to park in. I would imagine that the signage requests payment for something like the first hour or up to an hour - either way that's how long you were parked for. Just because you didn't get out of your car doesn't mean you weren't parked.
Unfortunately I think you're bang to rights. It might be a bit different if you drove in then straight out without stopping, but 12 minutes is parked to me.
Unfortunately I think you're bang to rights. It might be a bit different if you drove in then straight out without stopping, but 12 minutes is parked to me.
Antony Moxey said:
If the car was stopped to either use the phone or fiddle with the sat nav then it was parked. In a car park. That you have to pay to park in. I would imagine that the signage requests payment for something like the first hour or up to an hour - either way that's how long you were parked for. Just because you didn't get out of your car doesn't mean you weren't parked.
Unfortunately I think you're bang to rights. It might be a bit different if you drove in then straight out without stopping, but 12 minutes is parked to me.
Can an ANPR camera determine that a car was first of all parked (not stopped) and if so was it in a space? (The OP specifically states they did not park in a space so effectively they havent taken up the contractual offer of parking)Unfortunately I think you're bang to rights. It might be a bit different if you drove in then straight out without stopping, but 12 minutes is parked to me.
Not necessarily relating to the OP but just a point of interest in general of ANPR parking systems. Of course local authorities are not allowed to use them to operate car parks and there is clearly a good reason for it
Bluesgirl said:
I've just received a Parking Charge Notice (Notice to Keeper) from Euro Car Parks, member of BPA according to the Notice.
This relates to a period of 12 minutes when I pulled into a car park in Birmingham in the dark as I was lost and my SatNav was on the blink. I couldn't find anywhere to stop easily to work out where I was, so I pulled into the car park to sort myself out. This was on 27th October 2018. The ANPR shows my reg plate arriving at 19.15.24 and leaving again at 19.27.05 I didn't park in a space or get out of the car, I just stopped to look at the map, make a quick phone call and then set off again. I didn't see any signs re parking charges although they must have been there. I do remember the car park being very dark though - I didn't look around for notices, whether lit up or otherwise.
I realise that perhaps I should have looked for a machine, but as I wasn't intending to stay for any length of time, I didn't.
Looking at the appeals process and notes etc on here and ParkingCowboys' website, I'm thinking my best course of action is to question whether a £100 charge (£60 if paid in 14 days) is a fair and reasonable estimate of the landowner's loss. I see from the local council website that the charge would have been £1 for an hour's parking.
Can someone offer me some advice please? This was my first visit to Birmingham (and will hopefully be my last), so I'm not in a position to find out whether the notices are illuminated and clear.
Advice- pay it.This relates to a period of 12 minutes when I pulled into a car park in Birmingham in the dark as I was lost and my SatNav was on the blink. I couldn't find anywhere to stop easily to work out where I was, so I pulled into the car park to sort myself out. This was on 27th October 2018. The ANPR shows my reg plate arriving at 19.15.24 and leaving again at 19.27.05 I didn't park in a space or get out of the car, I just stopped to look at the map, make a quick phone call and then set off again. I didn't see any signs re parking charges although they must have been there. I do remember the car park being very dark though - I didn't look around for notices, whether lit up or otherwise.
I realise that perhaps I should have looked for a machine, but as I wasn't intending to stay for any length of time, I didn't.
Looking at the appeals process and notes etc on here and ParkingCowboys' website, I'm thinking my best course of action is to question whether a £100 charge (£60 if paid in 14 days) is a fair and reasonable estimate of the landowner's loss. I see from the local council website that the charge would have been £1 for an hour's parking.
Can someone offer me some advice please? This was my first visit to Birmingham (and will hopefully be my last), so I'm not in a position to find out whether the notices are illuminated and clear.
pavarotti1980 said:
Antony Moxey said:
If the car was stopped to either use the phone or fiddle with the sat nav then it was parked. In a car park. That you have to pay to park in. I would imagine that the signage requests payment for something like the first hour or up to an hour - either way that's how long you were parked for. Just because you didn't get out of your car doesn't mean you weren't parked.
Unfortunately I think you're bang to rights. It might be a bit different if you drove in then straight out without stopping, but 12 minutes is parked to me.
Can an ANPR camera determine that a car was first of all parked (not stopped) and if so was it in a space? (The OP specifically states they did not park in a space so effectively they haven't taken up the contractual offer of parking)Unfortunately I think you're bang to rights. It might be a bit different if you drove in then straight out without stopping, but 12 minutes is parked to me.
Not necessarily relating to the OP but just a point of interest in general of ANPR parking systems. Of course local authorities are not allowed to use them to operate car parks and there is clearly a good reason for it
pavarotti1980 said:
keirik said:
You stopped for 12 minutes to make a phone call.
Ergo you used their car park.
It doesn't take 12 minutes to reset a sat nav and no amount of trying to tweak reality will fix that.
Pay up and admit you didn't get away with it this time.
Are you for real? Those circumstances require shelling out £60/£100?Ergo you used their car park.
It doesn't take 12 minutes to reset a sat nav and no amount of trying to tweak reality will fix that.
Pay up and admit you didn't get away with it this time.
You could park in a council car park for 6 hours with no ticket and only have to pay £30/£60.
This is a private company who dont follow the rules (POFA 2012) to hold the keeper liable, so why should they pay up?
Don't want to pay a fee then don't use the service.
It's not hard, but it seems to be to some PHers who think they can have something for nothing because they don't like the t&cs
Hackney said:
voyds9 said:
I believe you entered the car park, read their regulations and decided you couldn't comply with them and left.
12 minutes seems reasonable to enter, find and read the regulations
This.12 minutes seems reasonable to enter, find and read the regulations
I think you could successfully argue that 12 minutes was what was needed to read the terms and conditions in the dark........
13 Grace periods
13.1 If a driver is parking without your permission, or at locations where parking is not normally permitted they must have the chance to read the terms and conditions before they enter into the ‘parking contract’ with you. If, having had that opportunity, they decide not to park but choose to leave the car park, you must provide them with a reasonable grace period to leave, as they will not be bound by your parking contract.
13.2 If the parking location is one where parking is normally permitted, you must allow the driver a reasonable grace period in addition to the parking event before enforcement action is taken. In such instances the grace period must be a minimum of 10 minutes.
13.2.a Vehicles are not permitted to park under the grace period in spaces designated to specific users for example Blue Badge holders. At all times vehicles must have appropriate and valid permit e.g Blue Badge on display for enforcement officer to inspect.
13.3 You must tell us the specific grace period at a site if our compliance team or our agents ask what it is.
13.4 You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes.
keirik said:
It may upset you but yes I am for real. No one forced the OP to use the car park, he chose to use it, therefore accepting.the conditions of use.
Don't want to pay a fee then don't use the service.
It's not hard, but it seems to be to some PHers who think they can have something for nothing because they don't like the t&cs
I will send you a letter saying pay £100 within 14 days because you had grey socks on this Tuesday, the sign on the way into work told you that grey socks werent allowed on a Tuesday.Don't want to pay a fee then don't use the service.
It's not hard, but it seems to be to some PHers who think they can have something for nothing because they don't like the t&cs
Would you pay up then too?
Theoretically speaking of course
pavarotti1980 said:
keirik said:
It may upset you but yes I am for real. No one forced the OP to use the car park, he chose to use it, therefore accepting.the conditions of use.
Don't want to pay a fee then don't use the service.
It's not hard, but it seems to be to some PHers who think they can have something for nothing because they don't like the t&cs
I will send you a letter saying pay £100 within 14 days because you had grey socks on this Tuesday, the sign on the way into work told you that grey socks werent allowed on a Tuesday.Don't want to pay a fee then don't use the service.
It's not hard, but it seems to be to some PHers who think they can have something for nothing because they don't like the t&cs
Would you pay up then too?
Theoretically speaking of course
The notion that you're entering in to a contract by driving past a sign on private land is a flaky premise which you've got to accept as legally valid before you start to discuss whether the car was actually parked, or whether the parking company met their side of the conditions, or whether the charge is fair, or a million other considerations.
I presume those who deem they've got the owner bang to rights are working on that basis? Frankly that's nonsense otherwise people would be actually be paying up, either in response to the fine, or in court and they're not and it seems a very strange sort of person who'd side with a cowboy parking operator other than through the absolute legal certainty that the driver was bound to the parking terms under all circumstances.
The guy wasn't a chancer who decided he didn't want to pay for parking, however the company would quite likely have sent him a ticket for merely driving in and out of the car park. They're the ones who bully people into paying unfair tickets.
I presume those who deem they've got the owner bang to rights are working on that basis? Frankly that's nonsense otherwise people would be actually be paying up, either in response to the fine, or in court and they're not and it seems a very strange sort of person who'd side with a cowboy parking operator other than through the absolute legal certainty that the driver was bound to the parking terms under all circumstances.
The guy wasn't a chancer who decided he didn't want to pay for parking, however the company would quite likely have sent him a ticket for merely driving in and out of the car park. They're the ones who bully people into paying unfair tickets.
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