3 People in cockpit

[Scabutz]

Sorry if this is a stupid question. Watching Die Hard 2. All the scenes in the airplanes there is a 3rd person in the cockpit behind the pilots.

What's he doing, and why don't they have them anymore?

[essayer]

Flight engineer. Long since replaced by computers.

[Scabutz]

essayer said:

Flight engineer. Long since replaced by computers.

Ah ok. What sort of stuff did they do?

[essayer]

Scabutz said:

Ah ok. What sort of stuff did they do?

Wikipedia has the detail, but they did stuff like adjust the throttles, monitor and move fuel about, react to faults occurring, etc
If it’s on YouTube have a look for some of the ITVV documentaries, the Concorde one is good in a geeky sort of way

[Scabutz]

Thanks. I'll have a look for that.

[Eric Mc]

The flight engineers job was to monitor the aircraft systems (fuel, hydraulics, electrics etc).

[5150]

By all accounts, the flight engineer was a very useful addition to a flight deck. Someone who not only had worked on the aircraft at a ‘spanner level’, and probably without exception, had a knowledge of the aircraft systems that went way beyond the pilot’s.

Sadly they’ve been designed out of the flight deck with the responsibility left solely with the pilots.

[anonymous-user]

They used to do lots of stuff like balancing the fuel and selecting which fuel pumps and tanks to use and things like adjusting the thrust levers on take off especially on the older 747s.

The B767 was one of the first aircraft to get rid of the flight engineer in the 80s but I think some airlines (air NZ perhaps) had weird union rules where Boeing had to install a mini engineers panel that didn’t actually do much.

They were usually a bit grizzly and grumpy. One told me he was like an older days horse drawn stage coach driver, as he was basically in charge but he had to sit looking at two horses arses all day.

[silverfoxcc]

Remember those heady days when there were five up front?

Pilot
Co-pilot
Engineer
Navigator
Radio operator

[anonymous-user]

silverfoxcc said:

Remember those heady days when there were five up front?

Pilot
Co-pilot
Engineer
Navigator
Radio operator

I remember being parked up next to an il76 years ago and met the pilot, we visited each other’s flight decks and I think they had all those plus loaders (possibly not the radio operator). They aparently used to even have a political officer to stop defections.

[Eric Mc]

Boeing 377 Stratocruiser flight deck -

[bobbo89]

Did these guys just suddenly find themselves out of work as technology improved and they were essentially designed out of a job? No doubt their skill-set was just as useful in another areas but was there a sudden point at which their job as flight crew just disappeared?

[Eric Mc]

The jobs faded out over about 30 years.

The Radio Operators were the first to go. They were mostly gone by the end of the 1950s.

The Navigators were next. They were mostly gone by the mid 1970s as shorter range flights used beacons for navigating and longer range flights used inertial guidance systems.

The Flight Engineers went last as they were needed into the 1980s and even early 90s.

[anonymous-user]

bobbo89 said:

Did these guys just suddenly find themselves out of work as technology improved and they were essentially designed out of a job? No doubt their skill-set was just as useful in another areas but was there a sudden point at which their job as flight crew just disappeared?

Yes, when those aircraft were retired they were made redundant.

When I started my career in aviation, you’d meet a few doing things like ground training and classroom teaching.

[JuniorD]

In my limited experience they were a bit more droll and gruff than their Nigel counterparts; a bit like your farmer uncle

[FourWheelDrift]

I think the airlines that still operate the commercial version of the Ilyushin Il-76 will still have 3 in the cockpit.

[essayer]

Here's the flight engineer panel from a 747-200:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4...

You can see a lot of the functionality moved to the overhead panel on the 747-400:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/121993717@N03/345249...

Edited by essayer on Friday 7th December 13:40

[aeropilot]

Eric Mc said:

The Flight Engineers went last as they were needed into the 1980s and even early 90s.

And a very small and proud last of the line cadre of FE's on the BA Concorde fleet until 2003.

[Eric Mc]

I'm sure there are a few Flight Engineers still around - wherever older technology jet transports are still in use.

In the military, I'm sure all those AWACs E-3s and KC-135 tankers still need them.

[aeropilot]

Eric Mc said:

I'm sure there are a few Flight Engineers still around - wherever older technology jet transports are still in use.

In the cargo flying world there is, especially out in South/Central America and Africa using the old 1st/2nd gen airliners.

Eric Mc said:

In the military, I'm sure all those AWACs E-3s and KC-135 tankers still need them.

Yes, they have a 4 crew cockpit, as there's a dedicated Nav as well.
Although IIRC, the USAF E-3's at least are going through a glass cockpit upgrade which may mean 2-seat cockpits in future. I think a lot of the 135's have had this upgrade already?