Law regarding red diesel on the continent.
Discussion
Hey folks.
Chatting to a friend about a theoretical mod to his big camper/overland rig (that's what the kids are calling them nowadays).
Basis of the idea being the standard 55litre tank using UK diesel for general road use, but having an auxiliary 70L tank on board to be filled with red for offroad use.
Questions legally being:
1. What is the UK law on a road going vehicle driving with an auxiliary tank full of red, the intention would be to have a lifter pump that feeds into the primary tank, so fuel from the aux tank doesn't directly feed the engine. The lifter pump can be physically locked out when driving on UK roads.
2. What is the law regarding using reduced duty fuel on the road outside of the UK (within the ECC)
3. When coming back into the UK, would foreign diesel in an aux tank be considered fuel within the vehicle, or taxable cargo?
4. At what dilution does red become 'not red', for instance if he left with a full tank of red, filled up on the continent leaving ~5% red still floating about the system, is that a recipe for having your collar felt?
Vehicle is for none-commercial use. But would "fit the description" of a typical vehicle pulled by rural VOSA for a dip. (an old decrepit Tranny country)
Chatting to a friend about a theoretical mod to his big camper/overland rig (that's what the kids are calling them nowadays).
Basis of the idea being the standard 55litre tank using UK diesel for general road use, but having an auxiliary 70L tank on board to be filled with red for offroad use.
Questions legally being:
1. What is the UK law on a road going vehicle driving with an auxiliary tank full of red, the intention would be to have a lifter pump that feeds into the primary tank, so fuel from the aux tank doesn't directly feed the engine. The lifter pump can be physically locked out when driving on UK roads.
2. What is the law regarding using reduced duty fuel on the road outside of the UK (within the ECC)
3. When coming back into the UK, would foreign diesel in an aux tank be considered fuel within the vehicle, or taxable cargo?
4. At what dilution does red become 'not red', for instance if he left with a full tank of red, filled up on the continent leaving ~5% red still floating about the system, is that a recipe for having your collar felt?
Vehicle is for none-commercial use. But would "fit the description" of a typical vehicle pulled by rural VOSA for a dip. (an old decrepit Tranny country)
If you're caught running on the road on red diesel here in Belgium it's an on-the-spot €500 fine, and they're quite adept at finding second tanks. They also look at the fuel filter if they're feeling particularly sneaky. Red diesel leaves traces which last for ages.
I have an agricultural contracting business. We also do some non-agricultural work, so I have 2 tractors with a dual-fuel system - red for agricutural and normal diesel for non-ag. It's a real headache working out what's what - I can use the tractor with red diesel to transport a digger on a low loader for agricultural work. If the digger is going to a building site, we have to use white.
Last year they changed the requirement for snow clearance/salt-spreading - we're now allowed to do that with red.
In your friend's case I doubt whether the cost of installing the system would be worth it, unless range is a problem, in which case the system would also be used for normal diesel.
Regarding the taxation element - the current system allows for the payment of tax once within the EC, so fuel brought into the UK would not be taxable. Post-Brexit, who knows?
I have an agricultural contracting business. We also do some non-agricultural work, so I have 2 tractors with a dual-fuel system - red for agricutural and normal diesel for non-ag. It's a real headache working out what's what - I can use the tractor with red diesel to transport a digger on a low loader for agricultural work. If the digger is going to a building site, we have to use white.
Last year they changed the requirement for snow clearance/salt-spreading - we're now allowed to do that with red.
In your friend's case I doubt whether the cost of installing the system would be worth it, unless range is a problem, in which case the system would also be used for normal diesel.
Regarding the taxation element - the current system allows for the payment of tax once within the EC, so fuel brought into the UK would not be taxable. Post-Brexit, who knows?
Edited by sunbeam alpine on Friday 28th December 21:34
The latest dye isn't a dye but a chemical marker - Accutrace - that can't be removed easily and is quickly detected at the roadside by HMRC's new vans, and any country that doesn't allow low duty fuel to be used by non agricultural or commercial marine, etc. Auxiliary tanks fall foul of insurance for the modification, carrying of hazardous goods regs, and smuggling if you cross a border. Risk of vehicle seized and crushed, plus potential huge fines.
ElectricPics said:
The latest dye isn't a dye but a chemical marker - Accutrace - that can't be removed easily and is quickly detected at the roadside by HMRC's new vans, and any country that doesn't allow low duty fuel to be used by non agricultural or commercial marine, etc. Auxiliary tanks fall foul of insurance for the modification, carrying of hazardous goods regs, and smuggling if you cross a border. Risk of vehicle seized and crushed, plus potential huge fines.
Yes, not worth the risk (imo), for any potential saving.I'm not nearly as well versed in the technicalities as those who have already replied, but I am interested in the type of use this vehicle will get. Just how much off-road driving is he going to be doing in an old Transit that it's worthwhile fitting an auxiliary fuel tank for red diesel, even assuming it never gets inspected? Not trying to be a clever dick, genuinely interested. If it were me, I'd think that the likely hassle that would arise were the red diesel ever to be found in the system, even if you had all the paperwork to show it was kosher, would outweigh the benefit. But then as I say I don't know the specifics.
Edit: sorry now understand that the question was whether the rules on red diesel for ON road use in the rest of Europe mean that this could be a goer. I suspect not, else lots of people would be doing it already!
Edit: sorry now understand that the question was whether the rules on red diesel for ON road use in the rest of Europe mean that this could be a goer. I suspect not, else lots of people would be doing it already!
Edited by Roger Irrelevant on Saturday 29th December 08:17
After a couple of seconds on Google (From: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/excise-... ) :
3.7 Will HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) officers also test for foreign marked oil?
Yes. HMRC will take action against those responsible for the presence of marked oils containing any UK or EU marker chemicals. These include:
Coumarin - a UK marker
Quinizarin - a UK marker and
the ‘Euromarker’, Solvent Yellow 124, a marker used in all EU Member States
As that section notes that UK inspections check for EU marker chemicals in diesel, as well as UK markers, and notes that all EU Member States use a marker chemical, that tells me that it is not legal to use red diesel anywhere in Europe, and chances are, if UK inspectors check for EU markers, then EU inspectors check for UK markers.
3.7 Will HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) officers also test for foreign marked oil?
Yes. HMRC will take action against those responsible for the presence of marked oils containing any UK or EU marker chemicals. These include:
Coumarin - a UK marker
Quinizarin - a UK marker and
the ‘Euromarker’, Solvent Yellow 124, a marker used in all EU Member States
As that section notes that UK inspections check for EU marker chemicals in diesel, as well as UK markers, and notes that all EU Member States use a marker chemical, that tells me that it is not legal to use red diesel anywhere in Europe, and chances are, if UK inspectors check for EU markers, then EU inspectors check for UK markers.
4rephill said:
After a couple of seconds on Google (From: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/excise-... ) :
3.7 Will HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) officers also test for foreign marked oil?
Yes. HMRC will take action against those responsible for the presence of marked oils containing any UK or EU marker chemicals. These include:
Coumarin - a UK marker
Quinizarin - a UK marker and
the ‘Euromarker’, Solvent Yellow 124, a marker used in all EU Member States
As that section notes that UK inspections check for EU marker chemicals in diesel, as well as UK markers, and notes that all EU Member States use a marker chemical, that tells me that it is not legal to use red diesel anywhere in Europe, and chances are, if UK inspectors check for EU markers, then EU inspectors check for UK markers.
Ah right, yeah, I googled it but never saw this. That pretty much kills the idea dead in the water, the thought process was that we didn't think a foreign police would care much for chasing up issues on behalf of the UK tax man, but if it is the same types of dye used everywhere then yeah it'd be problematic. 3.7 Will HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) officers also test for foreign marked oil?
Yes. HMRC will take action against those responsible for the presence of marked oils containing any UK or EU marker chemicals. These include:
Coumarin - a UK marker
Quinizarin - a UK marker and
the ‘Euromarker’, Solvent Yellow 124, a marker used in all EU Member States
As that section notes that UK inspections check for EU marker chemicals in diesel, as well as UK markers, and notes that all EU Member States use a marker chemical, that tells me that it is not legal to use red diesel anywhere in Europe, and chances are, if UK inspectors check for EU markers, then EU inspectors check for UK markers.
Thanks for the responses though, tank is still being fitted but will be used with road legal fuel
. He is building it as some type of continent crossing big camper. Currently it is just a mk3 transit Tipper converted to 4x4 by a company called County, but originally specced with a tiny 55 litre diesel tank. So the old 55L tank is being unbolted from the frame & a full sized 68L mk3 tank is getting added, the idea was to bolt a 2nd 60-70L tank onto the side of the frame with a lifter pump into the primary. I am also currently helping him remove the tipper body to replace it with a luton box body to act as living space. Are aux tanks counted as smuggling at the border? I know they where cracking down on companies running 4x2 empty wagons over to france with big 2000L tanks and coming back to distribute the fuel to their trucks, but was unsure if any actual laws got passed to tackle that (other than French diesel getting much more pricey).
Edited by caelite on Sunday 30th December 21:27
GC8 said:
You cant have an 'off-road' tank here, or anywhere else. The offence is having the fuel in the road registered/taxed vehicle and rebated fuel from any jurisdiction is equally prohibited (eg Irish green rebated gas oil).
No way Jose.
I'm not sure it's as simple as that.No way Jose.
Rover 75's / MG ZT diesels often came with a diesel-burning auxiliary heater (FBH).
Although it burns diesel from the tank, it has a separate pump and fuel line going from the tank to the unit under the bonnet.
There was some talk of running it on red and someone emailed HMRC and got the following reply - https://the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?...
The installation is pictured in this thread - https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread....
GC8 said:
You cant have an 'off-road' tank here, or anywhere else. The offence is having the fuel in the road registered/taxed vehicle and rebated fuel from any jurisdiction is equally prohibited (eg Irish green rebated gas oil).
No way Jose.
Funnily enough, the arcticle redpill linked talks about thatNo way Jose.
4.3 Can I store rebated oil in auxiliary (belly) tanks on a vehicle or trailer?
Yes, but only in fuel tanks not capable of connection to the engine used to propel the vehicle (unless it is an excepted vehicle). The standard running tank(s), whether connected or disconnected, must contain only fully duty paid fuel. Rebated gas oil must not be taken into the standard running tanks or auxiliary tanks fitted to vehicles or trailers except where these tanks are solely and permanently connected to the auxiliary machinery (for example, refrigeration motors). All other tanks on a vehicle, trailer or bulk carrier whether directly connected to the propelling engine or not, will be considered to be part of the road fuel system. Dual fuel systems are not permitted, even where they can connect to a power take off to switch the tanks.
Essentially you can, but the fuel cannot connect to the existing fuel system in any way.
Jakg said:
I'm not sure it's as simple as that.
Rover 75's / MG ZT diesels often came with a diesel-burning auxiliary heater (FBH).
Although it burns diesel from the tank, it has a separate pump and fuel line going from the tank to the unit under the bonnet.
There was some talk of running it on red and someone emailed HMRC and got the following reply - https://the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?...
The installation is pictured in this thread - https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread....
I think some Lorries & RVs have heaters, generators etc that run off "Red diesel" but I can see a distinction as they are separate systems. A second tank that can also be connected to the truck engine, or RV engine as in the OPs post, I imagine would be a different story. Rover 75's / MG ZT diesels often came with a diesel-burning auxiliary heater (FBH).
Although it burns diesel from the tank, it has a separate pump and fuel line going from the tank to the unit under the bonnet.
There was some talk of running it on red and someone emailed HMRC and got the following reply - https://the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?...
The installation is pictured in this thread - https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread....
C Lee Farquar said:
OP, has your friend driven it? Those County conversions make a Defender seem civilised by comparison, I wouldn't want to travel far in one
Ahah, funnily enough, a Defender (technically, a 90) is his daily. He did the Scottish NC500 in that (with myself in my Jimny & another friend in a Disco 1). We are all luddites who hate refinement here. I haven't been behind the wheel of it myself, I can't imagine they are worse than the unimogs & old army trucks you see people building these big overland campers out of.
Rovinghawk said:
caelite said:
4. At what dilution does red become 'not red',
When the marker can no longer be detected.ElectricPics said:
The manufacturer of Accutrace say
Manufacturer's aren't always honest about their products, especially when the claims are slightly vague in definition & difficult to verify in practice. I'd accept a statement that it's detectable at X ppm but '4 fuel cycles' is capable of a great deal of manipulation.Rovinghawk said:
ElectricPics said:
The manufacturer of Accutrace say
Manufacturer's aren't always honest about their products, especially when the claims are slightly vague in definition & difficult to verify in practice. I'd accept a statement that it's detectable at X ppm but '4 fuel cycles' is capable of a great deal of manipulation.ElectricPics said:
The manufacturer of Accutrace say it's detectable up to four full fuel cycles through a system, As most fuel systems are rarely completely emptied I have a feeling you'd be looking at a long time before it's diluted to under the HMRC detection level. It's invisible so even if the fuel has had dye removed it's still there.
The regional head of enforcement for C&E told me that emptied (ie drained, filter, etc) and re-filled would suffice. He also conceded that the made-up nonsense worked in their favour as their interest was in preventing evasion, rather than catching offenders.
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