3-D printing and software?

[chris watton]

Recently, I decided to quit working for the Italian company I have designed for and start working on new projects for myself to sell (projects I actually enjoy doing, rather than crap that I know will never sell).

I design scale model kits, mainly period ships (like Victory). I have the laser cutting and photo etch side sorted out, but an wondering about the decorative aspect. These models have decoration/carvings, usually a figurehead and elaborate stern decoration, which are usually carved (for the master) by an expert, and are then used to make the production parts.

I am toying with the idea about using a 3-D printer, as it will save money in the long run. However, I have only ever used 2-D software. What would be the best program to use for a 3-D printer in order for me to draw the elaborate carvings for printing, as I am assuming I would need to draw the parts in 3-D. Also, any recommendation on a good intermediate small 3-D printer, which can print the detail?

Cheers

I have just sold my car to invest...

[poppopbangbang]

Fusion 360 and a Robox. If you don't want to go the FDM route then there are some desktop SLS now at very reasonable prices (like the Form stuff) which will do what you want without the "banding" present on FDM prints.

[chris watton]

poppopbangbang said:

Fusion 360 and a Robox. If you don't want to go the FDM route then there are some desktop SLS now at very reasonable prices (like the Form stuff) which will do what you want without the "banding" present on FDM prints.

Thanks, do you mean something like this:

https://uk-shop.3dsystems.com/fabpro-1000/?_ga=2.2...

[egomeister]

chris watton said:

poppopbangbang said:

Fusion 360 and a Robox. If you don't want to go the FDM route then there are some desktop SLS now at very reasonable prices (like the Form stuff) which will do what you want without the "banding" present on FDM prints.

Thanks, do you mean something like this:

https://uk-shop.3dsystems.com/fabpro-1000/?_ga=2.2...

That's the kind of thing - Formlabs are another manufacturer to look at. SLA is probably the technology you want - laser curing of a liquid resin. SLS (Laser sintering of powder) and FDM (melting of a spool of plastic material) will likely not have the resolution you require for detailed modelling,

I'm not sure what would be the best software, I'm not convinced an engineering biased modeller like 360 would be best - something more freeform would probably better, but I have no experience in this area. To continue with the Autodesk theme, perhaps something like Mudbox would be more appropriate: https://www.autodesk.com/products/mudbox/overview

[chris watton]

egomeister said:

That's the kind of thing - Formlabs are another manufacturer to look at. SLA is probably the technology you want - laser curing of a liquid resin. SLS (Laser sintering of powder) and FDM (melting of a spool of plastic material) will likely not have the resolution you require for detailed modelling,

I'm not sure what would be the best software, I'm not convinced an engineering biased modeller like 360 would be best - something more freeform would probably better, but I have no experience in this area. To continue with the Autodesk theme, perhaps something like Mudbox would be more appropriate: https://www.autodesk.com/products/mudbox/overview

Cheers, I would need to learn from scratch 3-d software, as I have only ever used 2-d (and all parts I design are either laser cut on flat sheets or photo-etched on flat brass or copper)

As an example of what I would need the printer for, rather than using a carver, this is a figurehead and stern from a ship of a new development I have in mind:




As I am selling my pride and joy TVR, I need to make the right decisions in what to buy for the maximum benefit to my business, and a 3-d printer is a large part of that..

[egomeister]

So your basic process would be 3d model > 3d printed master > resin cast tool > resin cast parts?

I don't have any experience of the type of software for this style of modelling, but there are some good options to look at here: https://i.materialise.com/blog/en/3d-sculpting-pro...

It looks like they are quite accessibly priced, so you should be able to feel your way into things without too much up front investment on that side. The printer is more of a commitment, but you could always outsource initially to get a feel for the requirements of the parts so you buy the right kit when the time comes.

[Smiler.]

You could do a lot worse than speak to Creat3D.

I've been looking for a printing system for a while now, they know their stuff & are very helpful.

https://www.desktop3dprinter.com/

As for software, I use Inventor Pro.

I've no idea how to create the sort of solid in your pic though.

One thing to bear in mind, any native files will likely need to be converted to a format which can be loaded into the printer software. I think the Formlabs SLA uses .stl files.

Also, the SLA machine needs a post production chemical cleaning bath & curing module.

I considered the Formlabs SLA, but I don't thinks it's flexible enough for the sort of stuff I need to produce. PLA is most likely the way I'll go, but not suitable for your needs.

[rich1231]

We use a ProJet 2500 Plus
We also do resin casting. We sculpt in Zbrush and Freeform.
You are welcome to come visit our studio and manufacturing area to look at the processes.

[poppopbangbang]

egomeister said:

That's the kind of thing - Formlabs are another manufacturer to look at. SLA is probably the technology you want - laser curing of a liquid resin. SLS (Laser sintering of powder) and FDM (melting of a spool of plastic material) will likely not have the resolution you require for detailed modelling,

I'm not sure what would be the best software, I'm not convinced an engineering biased modeller like 360 would be best - something more freeform would probably better, but I have no experience in this area. To continue with the Autodesk theme, perhaps something like Mudbox would be more appropriate: https://www.autodesk.com/products/mudbox/overview

https://formlabs.com/3d-printers/fuse-1/ - we've had a play with one of these recently and they are incredible producing far stronger parts than our experience of SLA with very similar surface finishes. The problem with most not quite professional SLA stuff is that you will end up with the resins going off before you've fully used them or struggling for quality due to limitations of the laser, the step up to kit that will produce parts with excellent surface finishes is massive in cost. Also with SLS in nylon or FDM in ABS there are post treatments which provide smoother surface finishes. As always it depends on volume.

There are much better options than 3D Systems regardless, so many are moving away from them now in the professional market due to far better kit being available with far better support!

Mudbox is designed for film, simulation and game modelling. If you actually want to bring what you have drawn into reality then using something which is engineering based is far easier when starting out as whatever you can do in that you can realistically do on the kit that will make it. 360 is also free until you start generating turn over with it.....

[poppopbangbang]

chris watton said:

As an example of what I would need the printer for, rather than using a carver, this is a figurehead and stern from a ship of a new development I have in mind:




As I am selling my pride and joy TVR, I need to make the right decisions in what to buy for the maximum benefit to my business, and a 3-d printer is a large part of that..

What sort of volume are you wanting to do and what budget are you working to for kit? It may be best to outsource that you are going to need the kind of resolutions used in medical/dental/defence rather than what most desktop kit will provide.

[Mudgey]

I second Formlabs, I had a Form2 and was blown away by the quality of the parts, unfortunately the components are not great for creating strong prototype load bearing parts for my application so I ended up buying a Stratasys FDM machine. However, for parts like you mentioned then 3.5k would get you a Formlabs Form 2 machine and would be perfect for this.

It will take years of learning to create those intricate free form shapes and I would say its not worth bothering with, engineering CAD and 3D modelling are two different disciplines. It might be cheaper and quicker for you to physically go and get somebody to scan them in and provide a raw water tight model you can then 3D print.

I bought myself a Creaform 3D laser scanner for work and wouldn't be without it now.

[chris watton]

Thanks guys, all very much appreciated, and a lot to think about. More of a mine field than I first thought!

I would need the machine to produce just one (or two) of the carvings each, as these would be classed as 'masters', to be then used to cast the production parts either in white metal, or more preferably, resin.

I just thought it may work out cheaper in the long-run, as one project I have in mind will cost me thousands in master carvings alone - and I do not want to chose subjects just because they have less carvings.

Because the carvings are from real ships, I really need to import the picture into the CAD software (like I have to when designing the ships from the original plans). I can copy these in 2-D, but 3-D is another matter...

[chris watton]

rich1231 said:

We use a ProJet 2500 Plus
We also do resin casting. We sculpt in Zbrush and Freeform.
You are welcome to come visit our studio and manufacturing area to look at the processes.

So, if I gave you a scale drawing of the part/s that need to be sculpted, along with a drawing showing how the sculpture needs to be fixed, that's something you could do?

[rich1231]

chris watton said:

So, if I gave you a scale drawing of the part/s that need to be sculpted, along with a drawing showing how the sculpture needs to be fixed, that's something you could do?

Yep

[chris watton]

I started this topic a year ago, when I had no products out and was convinced I needed a 3-D printer.

I am so pleased I never wasted thousands on such equipment. After being let down or quoted ridiculous sums for the most base of requests, I have most things sorted.

I now have 2 model kits out and working on the third (even though I still have a full time day job - but this protects my investment money for my new company). And all is going well.

So, regarding the 3-d stuff, I design a lot myself and if I cannot, pay someone to do it (not much). I then send the STP files to my 3-d print/resin production caster in Hungary and they sort that aspect out for me. My biggest expense has been getting the kit component parts laser cut. With this in mind, I researched very carefully and have bought a laser/engraver machine, which arrives Friday. With hindsight, this is the machine I should have bought from the start, not a 3-d printer.

I have just released my second kit, which, I am pleased to say, is selling better than I ever expected, 40 gone in the space of 2 weeks. I get the wood from Germany, castings from Hungary, boxes from the Czech Republic, some rigging from the USA, photo etch parts from Italy, and laser cutting, manual and plans and rest of rigging lines from UK, as well as all design and development done by me.. Here are some pics of the contents of my second kit. I am hoping that when I have a half dozen or so new products, I can quit the safety net of my day job (Mon-Thurs from 2.30pm-12.30am), and concentrate on my own business fully, as I am so tired! (but fun)! I have made enough to buy a new laser machine, at least..