Notice of mobile phone use (whilst driving) with no evidence
Discussion
A colleague of mine has received a written notice from the local Police of him being spotted apparently driving with his phone in his hand - he wasn't stopped by a traffic car at the time he was supposedly spotted. Given he isn't the only driver of his car, he's asked if he can have photo evidence to show who was driving (don't shoot the messenger pls!)? Having spoken with a civilian member of the Police on the matter, he's been told he can't see the evidence unless he goes to court & asks the judge - he'd like some guidance on whether he's being unreasonable within the legal framework to ask for evidence or whether the local Police aren't quite following the required guidelines?
Thanks
Thanks
MrC986 said:
A colleague of mine has received a written notice from the local Police of him being spotted apparently driving with his phone in his hand - he wasn't stopped by a traffic car at the time he was supposedly spotted. Given he isn't the only driver of his car, he's asked if he can have photo evidence to show who was driving (don't shoot the messenger pls!)? Having spoken with a civilian member of the Police on the matter, he's been told he can't see the evidence unless he goes to court & asks the judge - he'd like some guidance on whether he's being unreasonable within the legal framework to ask for evidence or whether the local Police aren't quite following the required guidelines?
Thanks
His notice probably contains a section 172 request for him to name the driver at the time. The police don't have to ID the driver, the registered keeper does on pain of 6 points and a fine. Thanks
He is entitled to see the evidence, times dates, statements, footage.
Acknowledge the letter but say neither guilty nor not guilty.
If there is an option to go to court he might want to take that if he is adamant he did not do it.
There should either be a statement from whoever saw him or video, CCTV or photographic evidence.
He is entitled to see this. He should reply "thank you for the letter, please forward to me all evidential details of this reported motoring offence."
If it comes down to the fact he has been reported by a Police Officer who had seen him with no other evidence it will come down to a he said/she said in court. Confidence is the key.
And of course they might want to see your phone records........
Never call the witness a liar, just say he must be mistaken. You could show that you never made a call in your phone at the time of the offence..... don't try and be clever and give someone else's in.
If you have been caught on some busybodies dash cam you can insist they appear as a witness. You can dispute the date stamp but if you are there in full HD glory don't expect mercy.
Find out when it happened, check with your mobile phone company about your useage at the time of the offence. If you did, hold your hands up and take the lesser punishment
Good luck. Don't do it again.
Acknowledge the letter but say neither guilty nor not guilty.
If there is an option to go to court he might want to take that if he is adamant he did not do it.
There should either be a statement from whoever saw him or video, CCTV or photographic evidence.
He is entitled to see this. He should reply "thank you for the letter, please forward to me all evidential details of this reported motoring offence."
If it comes down to the fact he has been reported by a Police Officer who had seen him with no other evidence it will come down to a he said/she said in court. Confidence is the key.
And of course they might want to see your phone records........
Never call the witness a liar, just say he must be mistaken. You could show that you never made a call in your phone at the time of the offence..... don't try and be clever and give someone else's in.
If you have been caught on some busybodies dash cam you can insist they appear as a witness. You can dispute the date stamp but if you are there in full HD glory don't expect mercy.
Find out when it happened, check with your mobile phone company about your useage at the time of the offence. If you did, hold your hands up and take the lesser punishment
Good luck. Don't do it again.
MrC986 said:
A colleague of mine has received a written notice from the local Police of him being spotted apparently driving with his phone in his hand - he wasn't stopped by a traffic car at the time he was supposedly spotted. Given he isn't the only driver of his car, he's asked if he can have photo evidence to show who was driving (don't shoot the messenger pls!)? Having spoken with a civilian member of the Police on the matter, he's been told he can't see the evidence unless he goes to court & asks the judge - he'd like some guidance on whether he's being unreasonable within the legal framework to ask for evidence or whether the local Police aren't quite following the required guidelines?
Thanks
It's probably right, I had a speeding fine and it said a photo will only be provided on request of the court. Did the letter not have a date and time of the incident? if so he should know who was driving Thanks
MrC986 said:
A colleague of mine has received a written notice from the local Police of him being spotted apparently driving with his phone in his hand - he wasn't stopped by a traffic car at the time he was supposedly spotted. Given he isn't the only driver of his car, he's asked if he can have photo evidence to show who was driving (don't shoot the messenger pls!)? Having spoken with a civilian member of the Police on the matter, he's been told he can't see the evidence unless he goes to court & asks the judge - he'd like some guidance on whether he's being unreasonable within the legal framework to ask for evidence or whether the local Police aren't quite following the required guidelines?
Thanks
He is entitled to see the evidence. They are under an obligation to do this. It is not up to the judge to agree to give him the evidence.Thanks
You do not go to court to be given the evidence, there is such a thing as disclosure. You have to have time to look at the evidence and then prepare your rebuttal.
The civilian who gave him the advice is an idiot.
Matt-il77s said:
It's probably right, I had a speeding fine and it said a photo will only be provided on request of the court. Did the letter not have a date and time of the incident? if so he should know who was driving
As you are the defendant you are entitled to know the evidence against you. At th very least you should have said, "I need details of the time and place and I need the photo that was taken to see who may have been driving."LarsG said:
He is entitled to see the evidence, times dates, statements, footage.
Acknowledge the letter but say neither guilty nor not guilty.
If there is an option to go to court he might want to take that if he is adamant he did not do it.
There should either be a statement from whoever saw him or video, CCTV or photographic evidence.
He is entitled to see this. He should reply "thank you for the letter, please forward to me all evidential details of this reported motoring offence."
If it comes down to the fact he has been reported by a Police Officer who had seen him with no other evidence it will come down to a he said/she said in court. Confidence is the key.
And of course they might want to see your phone records........
Never call the witness a liar, just say he must be mistaken. You could show that you never made a call in your phone at the time of the offence..... don't try and be clever and give someone else's in.
If you have been caught on some busybodies dash cam you can insist they appear as a witness. You can dispute the date stamp but if you are there in full HD glory don't expect mercy.
Find out when it happened, check with your mobile phone company about your useage at the time of the offence. If you did, hold your hands up and take the lesser punishment
Good luck. Don't do it again.
Just about everything you said is wrong at this stage.Acknowledge the letter but say neither guilty nor not guilty.
If there is an option to go to court he might want to take that if he is adamant he did not do it.
There should either be a statement from whoever saw him or video, CCTV or photographic evidence.
He is entitled to see this. He should reply "thank you for the letter, please forward to me all evidential details of this reported motoring offence."
If it comes down to the fact he has been reported by a Police Officer who had seen him with no other evidence it will come down to a he said/she said in court. Confidence is the key.
And of course they might want to see your phone records........
Never call the witness a liar, just say he must be mistaken. You could show that you never made a call in your phone at the time of the offence..... don't try and be clever and give someone else's in.
If you have been caught on some busybodies dash cam you can insist they appear as a witness. You can dispute the date stamp but if you are there in full HD glory don't expect mercy.
Find out when it happened, check with your mobile phone company about your useage at the time of the offence. If you did, hold your hands up and take the lesser punishment
Good luck. Don't do it again.
The police will most likely be dealing with this by a conditional offer of fixed penalty. That means the driver admitting the offence and accepting that conditional offer.
The police can request the driver identity for an alleged offence without presenting any evidence, all they need to do is say what the nature of the alleged offence is, where it was and when. I would say they will have done that when asking for the driver ID.
Evidence is only required to be served when the case is heard in a court.
LarsG said:
Matt-il77s said:
It's probably right, I had a speeding fine and it said a photo will only be provided on request of the court. Did the letter not have a date and time of the incident? if so he should know who was driving
As you are the defendant you are entitled to know the evidence against you. At th very least you should have said, "I need details of the time and place and I need the photo that was taken to see who may have been driving."LarsG said:
He is entitled to see the evidence. They are under an obligation to do this. It is not up to the judge to agree to give him the evidence.
You do not go to court to be given the evidence, there is such a thing as disclosure. You have to have time to look at the evidence and then prepare your rebuttal.
The civilian who gave him the advice is an idiot.
Disclosure only kicks in if there is a charge or summons, this sounds more like it is at the NIP/172 stage or COFP?You do not go to court to be given the evidence, there is such a thing as disclosure. You have to have time to look at the evidence and then prepare your rebuttal.
The civilian who gave him the advice is an idiot.
Repel_Max said:
LarsG said:
He is entitled to see the evidence, times dates, statements, footage.
Acknowledge the letter but say neither guilty nor not guilty.
If there is an option to go to court he might want to take that if he is adamant he did not do it.
There should either be a statement from whoever saw him or video, CCTV or photographic evidence.
He is entitled to see this. He should reply "thank you for the letter, please forward to me all evidential details of this reported motoring offence."
If it comes down to the fact he has been reported by a Police Officer who had seen him with no other evidence it will come down to a he said/she said in court. Confidence is the key.
And of course they might want to see your phone records........
Never call the witness a liar, just say he must be mistaken. You could show that you never made a call in your phone at the time of the offence..... don't try and be clever and give someone else's in.
If you have been caught on some busybodies dash cam you can insist they appear as a witness. You can dispute the date stamp but if you are there in full HD glory don't expect mercy.
Find out when it happened, check with your mobile phone company about your useage at the time of the offence. If you did, hold your hands up and take the lesser punishment
Good luck. Don't do it again.
Just about everything you said is wrong at this stage.Acknowledge the letter but say neither guilty nor not guilty.
If there is an option to go to court he might want to take that if he is adamant he did not do it.
There should either be a statement from whoever saw him or video, CCTV or photographic evidence.
He is entitled to see this. He should reply "thank you for the letter, please forward to me all evidential details of this reported motoring offence."
If it comes down to the fact he has been reported by a Police Officer who had seen him with no other evidence it will come down to a he said/she said in court. Confidence is the key.
And of course they might want to see your phone records........
Never call the witness a liar, just say he must be mistaken. You could show that you never made a call in your phone at the time of the offence..... don't try and be clever and give someone else's in.
If you have been caught on some busybodies dash cam you can insist they appear as a witness. You can dispute the date stamp but if you are there in full HD glory don't expect mercy.
Find out when it happened, check with your mobile phone company about your useage at the time of the offence. If you did, hold your hands up and take the lesser punishment
Good luck. Don't do it again.
The police will most likely be dealing with this by a conditional offer of fixed penalty. That means the driver admitting the offence and accepting that conditional offer.
The police can request the driver identity for an alleged offence without presenting any evidence, all they need to do is say what the nature of the alleged offence is, where it was and when. I would say they will have done that when asking for the driver ID.
Evidence is only required to be served when the case is heard in a court.
Matt-il77s said:
It's probably right, I had a speeding fine and it said a photo will only be provided on request of the court. Did the letter not have a date and time of the incident? if so he should know who was driving
If you have a look at this thread you'll see that Sussex Police recently sent me an unsolicited photo of my car speeding 18 months ago with the cheery message :-"Since the New Year is a time for aspirations and resolutions, I wanted to send you this reminder to encourage you to stick to the limit this year"!!
LarsG said:
Matt-il77s said:
It's probably right, I had a speeding fine and it said a photo will only be provided on request of the court. Did the letter not have a date and time of the incident? if so he should know who was driving
As you are the defendant you are entitled to know the evidence against you. At th very least you should have said, "I need details of the time and place and I need the photo that was taken to see who may have been driving."The 172 is a statutory duty.
Acting like you don't have to comply with the lawful S172 request, or advising others to do likewise, is a sure fire way to walk right into 6 points.
You do not have any right to see any evidence that will be used against you until such time as the case proceeds to court.
The Police MAY provide photos to aid identification of the driver if requested, but if you start talking about "evidence" or "proof" the likelihood is they won't. It is possible that no photos exist, and that does not in and of itself invalidate any prosecution.
You do not have any right to see any evidence that will be used against you until such time as the case proceeds to court.
The Police MAY provide photos to aid identification of the driver if requested, but if you start talking about "evidence" or "proof" the likelihood is they won't. It is possible that no photos exist, and that does not in and of itself invalidate any prosecution.
LarsG said:
He is entitled to see the evidence, times dates, statements, footage.
Acknowledge the letter but say neither guilty nor not guilty.
If there is an option to go to court he might want to take that if he is adamant he did not do it.
There should either be a statement from whoever saw him or video, CCTV or photographic evidence.
He is entitled to see this. He should reply "thank you for the letter, please forward to me all evidential details of this reported motoring offence."
If it comes down to the fact he has been reported by a Police Officer who had seen him with no other evidence it will come down to a he said/she said in court. Confidence is the key.
And of course they might want to see your phone records........
Never call the witness a liar, just say he must be mistaken. You could show that you never made a call in your phone at the time of the offence..... don't try and be clever and give someone else's in.
If you have been caught on some busybodies dash cam you can insist they appear as a witness. You can dispute the date stamp but if you are there in full HD glory don't expect mercy.
Find out when it happened, check with your mobile phone company about your useage at the time of the offence. If you did, hold your hands up and take the lesser punishment
Good luck. Don't do it again.
All references to phone records etc are of course bAcknowledge the letter but say neither guilty nor not guilty.
If there is an option to go to court he might want to take that if he is adamant he did not do it.
There should either be a statement from whoever saw him or video, CCTV or photographic evidence.
He is entitled to see this. He should reply "thank you for the letter, please forward to me all evidential details of this reported motoring offence."
If it comes down to the fact he has been reported by a Police Officer who had seen him with no other evidence it will come down to a he said/she said in court. Confidence is the key.
And of course they might want to see your phone records........
Never call the witness a liar, just say he must be mistaken. You could show that you never made a call in your phone at the time of the offence..... don't try and be clever and give someone else's in.
If you have been caught on some busybodies dash cam you can insist they appear as a witness. You can dispute the date stamp but if you are there in full HD glory don't expect mercy.
Find out when it happened, check with your mobile phone company about your useage at the time of the offence. If you did, hold your hands up and take the lesser punishment
Good luck. Don't do it again.
ks. Have you seen a mobile phone, have you seen how small they are? How many phones do you think someone could carry in their various pockets?Why on earth would somebody in the habit of using a phone while driving NOT have another phone specifically for that purpose?
LarsG said:
He is entitled to see the evidence. They are under an obligation to do this. It is not up to the judge to agree to give him the evidence.
You do not go to court to be given the evidence, there is such a thing as disclosure. You have to have time to look at the evidence and then prepare your rebuttal.
The civilian who gave him the advice is an idiot.
They'll give disclosure, when they know they are dealing with the person who has been identified as being the driver at the time/date on the notice. Until your friend replies with who was driving at that time/ddate, they are unlikely to release the photo (if there is one) unless you ask for it to identify who was driving.You do not go to court to be given the evidence, there is such a thing as disclosure. You have to have time to look at the evidence and then prepare your rebuttal.
The civilian who gave him the advice is an idiot.
All these people saying they don’t have to disclose the photo evidence.
My brother and I routinely drive each other’s cars on similar roads.
If the cops asked me to identify who was driving the car 2 weeks ago I wouldn’t be able to say for sure who was driving unless they showed me a photo.
How is this sorted out then. I can’t tell them who was driving unless they show me a photo of the guilty party. And they won’t show the photo until I name the driver. Surely this is fked up in so many ways. All they have to do is show me the evidence and I would know the answer. What would they want me to do guess on the s172 request when there evidence could clear the matter up straight away.
My brother and I routinely drive each other’s cars on similar roads.
If the cops asked me to identify who was driving the car 2 weeks ago I wouldn’t be able to say for sure who was driving unless they showed me a photo.
How is this sorted out then. I can’t tell them who was driving unless they show me a photo of the guilty party. And they won’t show the photo until I name the driver. Surely this is f
ked up in so many ways. All they have to do is show me the evidence and I would know the answer. What would they want me to do guess on the s172 request when there evidence could clear the matter up straight away. I can't say I am experienced in this field however I know from my customers (typical white van men) that you are NOT entitled so see evidence/photos etc.
However my personal opinion is anyone using a mobile phone behind the wheel deserves absolutely everything they get! It is 2019 for goodness sake, near enough every car comes with bluetooth! If it doesn't hands free kits can be had for less than a tenner! Driving can be difficult at the best of times in this country without any added interference.
However my personal opinion is anyone using a mobile phone behind the wheel deserves absolutely everything they get! It is 2019 for goodness sake, near enough every car comes with bluetooth! If it doesn't hands free kits can be had for less than a tenner! Driving can be difficult at the best of times in this country without any added interference.
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