Discussion
I've been reading the learning guitar thread which has some interesting points about music theory. I thought I'd start a new thread as I didn't want to completely derail the other one (although as it is now talking about bagpipes I'd say it is pretty much derailed anyway).
I've been playing guitar for 35 off years. More or less completely self taught, I play to a comfortable dad band standard. I really don't understand theory at all.
I'm very happy playing along by ear, learning from youtube etc. I am however very aware that my lack of theory does impact my ability to improvise and also understand why songs/solos etc sound like they do.
So how can I easily learn the basics? We have a piano.
Thanks
D
I've been playing guitar for 35 off years. More or less completely self taught, I play to a comfortable dad band standard. I really don't understand theory at all.
I'm very happy playing along by ear, learning from youtube etc. I am however very aware that my lack of theory does impact my ability to improvise and also understand why songs/solos etc sound like they do.
So how can I easily learn the basics? We have a piano.
Thanks
D
For me a bit of theory is part of the enjoyment of studying an instrument. How important it is in progressing your playing depends on the styles of music you play though. Some styles fit better into standard western theory than others. Remember that theory is a framework to explain why what sounds good sounds good, rather than determine what can & cant be played. Plenty of great music doesn’t entirely fit A lot of what goes on in blues, for example, doesn’t.
Again, if you want to improvise with the pentatonic scale on a basic rock song, theory probably won’t add much. To navigate a series of jazz changes a grasp of theory is hugely advantageous.
That all said, I think every player can benefit from the richer understanding of what they play that theory can provide.
I’d suggest starting by understanding the interval structure of the major scale and the related natural minor scale.
Then study how the triad (three note) and seventh (four note) chords are built out of notes in the major and minor scales.
Then how the diatonic chords (those that only use notes from the scale) in the major scale are related and - important this - how chords resolve.
This gets you well on the way to analysing basic chord sequences.
It will also then help you understand all the exceptions (like where there are minor chords instead of major ones for example), which will really give you a foundation to see what’s happening in most rock & pop music.
Knowing which notes are common and which are changing across a sequence will really help your soloing because you’ll be able to target those sounds.
After that, you can explore modes of the major scale, other minor scales and more sophisticated harmonic concepts, if you feel like it.
There are plenty of books and internet resources out there. Don’t worry if the songs you look at don’t make total sense to begin with - a lot of theory makes most sense when you have more pieces of the puzzle.
Hope this helps.
Again, if you want to improvise with the pentatonic scale on a basic rock song, theory probably won’t add much. To navigate a series of jazz changes a grasp of theory is hugely advantageous.
That all said, I think every player can benefit from the richer understanding of what they play that theory can provide.
I’d suggest starting by understanding the interval structure of the major scale and the related natural minor scale.
Then study how the triad (three note) and seventh (four note) chords are built out of notes in the major and minor scales.
Then how the diatonic chords (those that only use notes from the scale) in the major scale are related and - important this - how chords resolve.
This gets you well on the way to analysing basic chord sequences.
It will also then help you understand all the exceptions (like where there are minor chords instead of major ones for example), which will really give you a foundation to see what’s happening in most rock & pop music.
Knowing which notes are common and which are changing across a sequence will really help your soloing because you’ll be able to target those sounds.
After that, you can explore modes of the major scale, other minor scales and more sophisticated harmonic concepts, if you feel like it.
There are plenty of books and internet resources out there. Don’t worry if the songs you look at don’t make total sense to begin with - a lot of theory makes most sense when you have more pieces of the puzzle.
Hope this helps.
I won't try and compete with that last excellent answer, because it's further than I've got, but I found that playing triad chords on a piano was a great way to actually understand the difference between major, minor, 7th chords etc as you can see what notes are change/added/subtracted etc
I havent gone much further as I'm a drummer and apparently I play a piano like one!, but it does mean I cn bash chords out and sing along which gives me hours of amusement
I havent gone much further as I'm a drummer and apparently I play a piano like one!, but it does mean I cn bash chords out and sing along which gives me hours of amusement
davidd said:
I've been playing guitar for 35 off years. More or less completely self taught, I play to a comfortable dad band standard. I really don't understand theory at all.
Up until 12 months ago, I was the same; been playing 30-odd years, self-taught, but was stuck in a blues / rock niche and knew nothing - really - about theory at all. Basically, I bought a new rig which I had to set up downstairs for space reasons. This meant I could play guitar whilst browsing the web.I quickly discovered theory stuff through the likes of Rick Beato and Jake Lizzio, and it opened up a whole new world! I now have an understanding of how dominant 7 / major 7 / minor 7 chords work, modal intervallic stuff, chords which can be used in major and minor keys and how using secondary dominant chords can spice up one's songwriting. It is fascinating.
I'd suggest searching YT for:-
Signals Music Studio (basic guitar music theory)
Fretjam (intermediate)
Rick Beato (advanced)
Step one: Learn the Major scale
It is made up of Tones and Semitones
A Semitone = 2 adjacent notes for example - B-C or D-D#
A Tone = 2 Semitones
The Major scale formula = T T S T T T S
C (T) D (T) E (S) F (T) G (T) A (T) B (S) C = C Major Scale
Starting on D:
D (T) E (T) F# (S) G (T) A (T) B (T) C# (S) D = D Major Scale
Now work out the rest on your own starting from the notes below and report back
E:
F:
G:
A:
B:
F#:
Bb:
Eb:
Ab:
Db:
Gb:
It is made up of Tones and Semitones
A Semitone = 2 adjacent notes for example - B-C or D-D#
A Tone = 2 Semitones
The Major scale formula = T T S T T T S
- Remember there are no accidentals (black notes) between B-C and E-F**
C (T) D (T) E (S) F (T) G (T) A (T) B (S) C = C Major Scale
Starting on D:
D (T) E (T) F# (S) G (T) A (T) B (T) C# (S) D = D Major Scale
Now work out the rest on your own starting from the notes below and report back
E:
F:
G:
A:
B:
F#:
Bb:
Eb:
Ab:
Db:
Gb:
That ^ is a really good starter from dojo with regard to notes in a given major scale.
On the subject of chords (keeping it basic), each major chord is made up of three notes from the major scale : the root (the first note of the scale), the major third, and a perfect fifth.
So, in C major (as shown by dojo above) we have:-
C D E F G A B
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Therefore, a C major scale will use the notes C, E and G. Play an F bar chord shape at the 8th fret, and all six notes will be combinations of C, E and G.
If you map out all of the notes in each major scale suggested by dojo, and assign numbers 1 - 7 to each note, no matter what key you're in if you play notes 1, 3 & 5 you've got a major chord.
Moving on very slightly (and again simplistically as I've only been studying this stuff for 12 months or so myself), if you want to play a minor chord, just drop the "3" note by a semitone. A C major chord would then become C Eb G.
On the subject of chords (keeping it basic), each major chord is made up of three notes from the major scale : the root (the first note of the scale), the major third, and a perfect fifth.
So, in C major (as shown by dojo above) we have:-
C D E F G A B
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Therefore, a C major scale will use the notes C, E and G. Play an F bar chord shape at the 8th fret, and all six notes will be combinations of C, E and G.
If you map out all of the notes in each major scale suggested by dojo, and assign numbers 1 - 7 to each note, no matter what key you're in if you play notes 1, 3 & 5 you've got a major chord.
Moving on very slightly (and again simplistically as I've only been studying this stuff for 12 months or so myself), if you want to play a minor chord, just drop the "3" note by a semitone. A C major chord would then become C Eb G.
Also good way to work on modes without realising it and get more fluid the scales is crab scales. So In C major..
(Up)Cdefgabc-(down)dcbagfed-(up)efgabcde.... etc. etc.
Do that for all the major and minor scales.
Then you can do semitones too. So you play one octave up C major and then play the C# above that and come down C# major. Up D major and down Eb major. Etc
Then do them in thirds. Cedfegfagbacbdc. Dfegfagbacbdced etc etc.
Great way to really shed scales.
(Up)Cdefgabc-(down)dcbagfed-(up)efgabcde.... etc. etc.
Do that for all the major and minor scales.
Then you can do semitones too. So you play one octave up C major and then play the C# above that and come down C# major. Up D major and down Eb major. Etc
Then do them in thirds. Cedfegfagbacbdc. Dfegfagbacbdced etc etc.
Great way to really shed scales.
Edited by thebraketester on Tuesday 5th February 23:52
cherryowen said:
That ^ is a really good starter from dojo with regard to notes in a given major scale.
On the subject of chords (keeping it basic), each major chord is made up of three notes from the major scale : the root (the first note of the scale), the major third, and a perfect fifth.
So, in C major (as shown by dojo above) we have:-
C D E F G A B
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Therefore, a C major scale will use the notes C, E and G. Play an F bar chord shape at the 8th fret, and all six notes will be combinations of C, E and G.
If you map out all of the notes in each major scale suggested by dojo, and assign numbers 1 - 7 to each note, no matter what key you're in if you play notes 1, 3 & 5 you've got a major chord.
Moving on very slightly (and again simplistically as I've only been studying this stuff for 12 months or so myself), if you want to play a minor chord, just drop the "3" note by a semitone. A C major chord would then become C Eb G.
Absolutely, some good stuff there - Once you've got a grasp of the major scale I'd look to chord construction then harmonise the major and understand the chords available within a given key.On the subject of chords (keeping it basic), each major chord is made up of three notes from the major scale : the root (the first note of the scale), the major third, and a perfect fifth.
So, in C major (as shown by dojo above) we have:-
C D E F G A B
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Therefore, a C major scale will use the notes C, E and G. Play an F bar chord shape at the 8th fret, and all six notes will be combinations of C, E and G.
If you map out all of the notes in each major scale suggested by dojo, and assign numbers 1 - 7 to each note, no matter what key you're in if you play notes 1, 3 & 5 you've got a major chord.
Moving on very slightly (and again simplistically as I've only been studying this stuff for 12 months or so myself), if you want to play a minor chord, just drop the "3" note by a semitone. A C major chord would then become C Eb G.
I would re-name your F shape barre chord shape to an E shape - its only semantics but it will tie it all into the CAGED system much better if you're going down that route..... go down that route
dojo said:
Absolutely, some good stuff there - Once you've got a grasp of the major scale I'd look to chord construction then harmonise the major and understand the chords available within a given key.
I would re-name your F shape barre chord shape to an E shape - its only semantics but it will tie it all into the CAGED system much better if you're going down that route..... go down that route
I would re-name your F shape barre chord shape to an E shape - its only semantics but it will tie it all into the CAGED system much better if you're going down that route..... go down that route
I'm still learning this theory stuff, and I've not yet found a tutorial on CAGED or "Circle of Fifths" that I understand.For the purposes of davidd (the OP), understanding the chords available in a given key is - well - key to many things, not least writing tunes.
Taking the C major scale as the starting point:-
C D E F G A B
Each scale tone has a chord associated with it, and when the chords are played in succession it sounds like the C major scale but using individual chords rather than notes.
Each note is traditionally given a Roman numeral to reference the type of chord to be played over that particular note. Uppercase (i.e. IV) means a major fourth, in this case F major. Lowercase (iii) means a minor third, in this case Eb. The full notation for a basic major scale is:-
I / ii / iii / IV / V / vi / vii, which in C major would mean playing the chords:-
C / Dm / Em / F / G / Am / Cb half diminished
Play the chords C through to Am, and it'll sound like a C major scale, but - as dojo says - harmonised. Give it a try, OP!
As an aside, many modern "pop" tunes use a I / IV / V / iv chord progression. Try playing combinations of C / F / G / Am, and you'll have pretty much written a pop tune!
cherryowen said:
I'm still learning this theory stuff, and I've not yet found a tutorial on CAGED or "Circle of Fifths" that I understand.Draw a clock face. Put C at noon.
Using the TTSTTTS system work out how many sharps there are - 0
Right then go up a perfect 5th (to G) and do the TTSTTTS - How many sharps?? 1 and its F#
Now go up another perfect 5th (to D) and do the same TTSTTTS - whats the answer? 2 sharps F# & C#
One more time - perfect 5th (A) now we have 3 sharps F#, C# & G#
Whats happening?? every time we go up a perfect 5th we get an extra sharp in the key but its also the same sharps as the previous key plys a new one (which happens to be a semitone lower than the tonic)
Do this all the way round to F# and you get all your sharp keys and your order of sharps (the order they are written on the stave) which is:
F C G D A E B (you can use the rhyme Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle or as I prefer f
king Chickens Gives Drummers An Eggy Boner)Ok so now you have the sharp side complete and they should be at 6pm on the clockface.
Now back to C at noon - lets do the other side but this time we will go up in Perfect 4ths.
Perfect 4th up from C = F TTSTTTS. We get on Flat = Bb.
Up a Perfect 4th from F = Bb TTSTTTS = 2 flats Bb and Eb
Notice the similar pattern??
Do it all the way round to 6 on the clock face where you end up with 6 flats = Gb surprise surprise its at the same place on the clock face as its enharmonic equivalent F# and it has the same number of flats as F# has sharps!!!
Regarding CAGED - You've got to grasp this man, it unlocks your fretboard - TOTALLY!
Its easier to show - I'll try and do a little video tomorrow if I have time - if not DM me and I'll walk you through it on Skype
Cheers
cherryowen said:
I / ii / iii / IV / V / vi / vii, which in C major would mean playing the chords:-
C / Dm / Em / F / G / Am / Cb half diminished
Only flagging this cause you seem super keen to get theory together - trying to help not be an arse!!!C / Dm / Em / F / G / Am / Cb half diminished
Your Cb should technically be called a B - In a major scale you have to have every letter accounted for and no doubling.
Also if we're talking triads its a Bdim not a half dim - it only becomes a half dim (minor 7 b5) if we're harmonsing in 7ths then we get:
Cmaj7 / Dmin7 / Emin7 / Fmaj7 / GDom7 / Amin7 / B half diminished (or Bmin7 b5)
Good stuff though man - you have a really good grasp of it :thumpsup:
Edited by dojo on Wednesday 6th February 23:53
This is all so good thanks.
I sort of use the CAGEG thing already but without really knowing it. What I need to do is spend a bit of time understanding and then I should possibly learn the notes.
I was running through the solos for Saturday and they suddenly started to make a little more sense which is a very good thing.
So skype lessons eh? Count me in
Thanks again.
D
I sort of use the CAGEG thing already but without really knowing it. What I need to do is spend a bit of time understanding and then I should possibly learn the notes.
I was running through the solos for Saturday and they suddenly started to make a little more sense which is a very good thing.
So skype lessons eh? Count me in
Thanks again.
D
davidd said:
This is all so good thanks.
I sort of use the CAGEG thing already but without really knowing it. What I need to do is spend a bit of time understanding and then I should possibly learn the notes.
I was running through the solos for Saturday and they suddenly started to make a little more sense which is a very good thing.
So skype lessons eh? Count me in
Thanks again.
D
I wish you well, chap! Hope it all goes OK for you.I sort of use the CAGEG thing already but without really knowing it. What I need to do is spend a bit of time understanding and then I should possibly learn the notes.
I was running through the solos for Saturday and they suddenly started to make a little more sense which is a very good thing.
So skype lessons eh? Count me in
Thanks again.
D
On the soloing side of things (and I've only recently learned this, which I'm a little ashamed of after 30 years of playing the guitar - mainly noodling in minor pentatonic), reading where the "starting" notes and "landing" notes are over each chord change makes a huge difference.
Say, for example, a song has the chords A / D / E (i.e. a simple I / IV / V progression). Maybe start a guitar solo on the A note, then when the D chord comes in maybe "land" on the 3rd note of the D major chord (F#). When the song chord then goes from D to E, maybe "land" on the 5th note of an E major chord (B). What you do between the A, F#, and B notes is up to you (as long as it's "largely" in the A major scale - although there are variants you can use called modes - which is a whole new game altogether and one I'm still just splashing around in mud puddles on the subject).
dojo said:
Really useful stuff
Cheers for that, fella; that's something I can go away with and study! And thanks for the support (it seems I'm on the right track with this theory stuff)cherryowen said:
davidd said:
This is all so good thanks.
I sort of use the CAGEG thing already but without really knowing it. What I need to do is spend a bit of time understanding and then I should possibly learn the notes.
I was running through the solos for Saturday and they suddenly started to make a little more sense which is a very good thing.
So skype lessons eh? Count me in
Thanks again.
D
I wish you well, chap! Hope it all goes OK for you.I sort of use the CAGEG thing already but without really knowing it. What I need to do is spend a bit of time understanding and then I should possibly learn the notes.
I was running through the solos for Saturday and they suddenly started to make a little more sense which is a very good thing.
So skype lessons eh? Count me in
Thanks again.
D
On the soloing side of things (and I've only recently learned this, which I'm a little ashamed of after 30 years of playing the guitar - mainly noodling in minor pentatonic), reading where the "starting" notes and "landing" notes are over each chord change makes a huge difference.
Say, for example, a song has the chords A / D / E (i.e. a simple I / IV / V progression). Maybe start a guitar solo on the A note, then when the D chord comes in maybe "land" on the 3rd note of the D major chord (F#). When the song chord then goes from D to E, maybe "land" on the 5th note of an E major chord (B). What you do between the A, F#, and B notes is up to you (as long as it's "largely" in the A major scale - although there are variants you can use called modes - which is a whole new game altogether and one I'm still just splashing around in mud puddles on the subject).
dojo said:
Really useful stuff
Cheers for that, fella; that's something I can go away with and study! And thanks for the support (it seems I'm on the right track with this theory stuff)This book takes you through it step by step, and really expanded my horizons a few years back. It also takes you gently through all the theory you'll need. It's the best value music book I've ever bought in terms of impact on my playing.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Chord-Tone-Soloing-Guitar...
I spent *years* trying unsuccessfully to get to grips with the whole chord-scale approach. I understand it, but I just sounded like I was playing, well, scales. And in a real jam much too much to think about. Finding this approach was a real revelation. Plus it's given me a route back into chord-scales/modes that is much more practical.
Of course, your mileage may vary :-)
Whilst some theory is useful no amount of theory will replace your ears. It is music we are making and too often that gets forgotten amid the shredding, pentatonic, guthrie govan bullst. These people are largely playing for themselves.
One of the ways I developed my lead playing way before the internet was by playing along to stuff and I dont mean Metallica and especially nothing blues based. Pick something where there are unusual chord progressions played at a sensible speed and see what you can come up with when a non-standard progression comes along. Just play along and let your ears tell you what fits and what doesn't. I remember improvising over Let It Be by the Beatles and Goodbye to love by the Carpenters is a cracker to play along to and you have the great solo in the middle that you can accompany.
You need to try to get away from root notes and too many rock bands have bass players who just play the root notes which gives you little to work with. No tension like ya kno....
All IMHO but I passed my grade 6 theory!
t. These people are largely playing for themselves. One of the ways I developed my lead playing way before the internet was by playing along to stuff and I dont mean Metallica and especially nothing blues based. Pick something where there are unusual chord progressions played at a sensible speed and see what you can come up with when a non-standard progression comes along. Just play along and let your ears tell you what fits and what doesn't. I remember improvising over Let It Be by the Beatles and Goodbye to love by the Carpenters is a cracker to play along to and you have the great solo in the middle that you can accompany.
You need to try to get away from root notes and too many rock bands have bass players who just play the root notes which gives you little to work with. No tension like ya kno....
All IMHO but I passed my grade 6 theory!
anonymous said:
[redacted]
That's quite interesting, but I have a question if I may.I entered a basic Cm7 as a starting chord. Does that mean I can play (as it seems to suggest) combinations of C dorian / C phrygian / C aeolian / C locrian over a Cm7 chord? I know that all the modes I mention are "flavours" of minor, but against a Cm7 chord I would imagine phrygian and locrian would sound a little discordant if you know what I mean!
I bet I've opened a can of worms here, and things will get all "passing tones" and "substitutions". But that is what learning guitar / music is all about is it not?
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