Promotion minus the payrise :(
Discussion
So, that old chestnut....
I'm a design engineer/industrial designer. I have 11 years experience and have been with the same company for the last 8 years, I've gradually moved up from junior through middleweight, to senior designer on our biggest account.
I've been in that role for the last 2-3 years, and i'm good at what I do. up until end december paid around £35k PA which was good money for the level of responsibility without getting dragged into managerial matters.
Just before christmas the company had a reshuffle, and I was asked if I wanted to move over to another team, fresh challenge, a 4% payrise. They "asked", however it was staged in such a way that I didn't really feel I could refuse...career suicide and all that.
I was happy enough to take on the challenge, my role would be similar, a bit more responsibility etc.
So whilst away over xmas, I find out that the guy above me in the new team has finally left the company, he was very much a black sheep and near enough impossible to work with...i was one of the few people that managed to without fireworks.
So, brilliant I think, I can make this role my own and take on more responsibility without having to tiptoe around the team leader and deal with him...everyone else on the team and the company wide, pretty ecstatic that he's gone.
I get told when i'm back after xmas that i need to travel to the US for 10 days to meet my new team members, and travel on to a show to help build and oversee some retail displays we designed for it, and a few of my own. This was a weeks notice, I went out, did the job and all went well.
Whilst all this has gone on, there had been no further mention of revising my prev. offered 4% increase, or revising the job description...despite the fact that I am now doing the job plus the added responsibilities of being the sole designer on the team. the buck now stops with me and I have double the responsibility and accountability than before the guy above me left.
I pulled the design manager aside that oversees engineering across all markets yesterday, he's effectively my boss and reporting line. I wanted to find out what was going on with my salary now i'm doing a job above and beyond what was agreed before xmas.
His response- "the higher ups want to see how you handle yourself, and decide whether to employ someone over your head or a junior under you, basically see how things develop" He gave no timelines, no assurances, and no further information.
I said that given the large amount of extra work and responsibility that I would like a bit further clarification on timelines and some assurances...is that unreasonable? My boss was very vague, to the point that i've said we need to sit down again as I don't feel particularly happy with the way this whole thing is headed.
I can't work out if someone further up the chain thinks i'm not capable, or if the whole deal is a cynical cost saving measure. It all has me pretty pissed off to be honest, I would love to throw myself into this new role but I feel like i'm being mugged off after 8 years of service and having pulled more than my weight through some difficult times here..
Bearing all this in mind, my current salary sits at £36k, at my level i'm now sat with the responsibilities I have since the whole game is changed I am probably about £5k under where i need to be and others are on different accounts at the same level.
Any thoughts from the masses? It's been years and years since i've been fobbed off with the whole, "we will see how you do" thing.
I'm a design engineer/industrial designer. I have 11 years experience and have been with the same company for the last 8 years, I've gradually moved up from junior through middleweight, to senior designer on our biggest account.
I've been in that role for the last 2-3 years, and i'm good at what I do. up until end december paid around £35k PA which was good money for the level of responsibility without getting dragged into managerial matters.
Just before christmas the company had a reshuffle, and I was asked if I wanted to move over to another team, fresh challenge, a 4% payrise. They "asked", however it was staged in such a way that I didn't really feel I could refuse...career suicide and all that.
I was happy enough to take on the challenge, my role would be similar, a bit more responsibility etc.
So whilst away over xmas, I find out that the guy above me in the new team has finally left the company, he was very much a black sheep and near enough impossible to work with...i was one of the few people that managed to without fireworks.
So, brilliant I think, I can make this role my own and take on more responsibility without having to tiptoe around the team leader and deal with him...everyone else on the team and the company wide, pretty ecstatic that he's gone.
I get told when i'm back after xmas that i need to travel to the US for 10 days to meet my new team members, and travel on to a show to help build and oversee some retail displays we designed for it, and a few of my own. This was a weeks notice, I went out, did the job and all went well.
Whilst all this has gone on, there had been no further mention of revising my prev. offered 4% increase, or revising the job description...despite the fact that I am now doing the job plus the added responsibilities of being the sole designer on the team. the buck now stops with me and I have double the responsibility and accountability than before the guy above me left.
I pulled the design manager aside that oversees engineering across all markets yesterday, he's effectively my boss and reporting line. I wanted to find out what was going on with my salary now i'm doing a job above and beyond what was agreed before xmas.
His response- "the higher ups want to see how you handle yourself, and decide whether to employ someone over your head or a junior under you, basically see how things develop" He gave no timelines, no assurances, and no further information.
I said that given the large amount of extra work and responsibility that I would like a bit further clarification on timelines and some assurances...is that unreasonable? My boss was very vague, to the point that i've said we need to sit down again as I don't feel particularly happy with the way this whole thing is headed.
I can't work out if someone further up the chain thinks i'm not capable, or if the whole deal is a cynical cost saving measure. It all has me pretty pissed off to be honest, I would love to throw myself into this new role but I feel like i'm being mugged off after 8 years of service and having pulled more than my weight through some difficult times here..
Bearing all this in mind, my current salary sits at £36k, at my level i'm now sat with the responsibilities I have since the whole game is changed I am probably about £5k under where i need to be and others are on different accounts at the same level.
Any thoughts from the masses? It's been years and years since i've been fobbed off with the whole, "we will see how you do" thing.
I personally would just get on with it, after a couple of months I'd request a review and if they weren't forthcoming with one I'd still get on with it and build up my ability of working at the higher level and then look to use my new skills to apply for another job in or outside the company
Sit tight and prove that you can do the job a level above yours, after which see if you can get involved in the recruitment process for a more junior guy to work with you, and make your arguments about salary.
It's pretty fair what they're doing, perhaps if you had been in role for a more substantial period of time it would be different but they understandably aren't going to throw more money at you and then find they need to replace this guy like for like anyway.
It's pretty fair what they're doing, perhaps if you had been in role for a more substantial period of time it would be different but they understandably aren't going to throw more money at you and then find they need to replace this guy like for like anyway.
Same as with all things like this: don't tell them what you don't like, tell them what you want.
Something along the lines of: appreciate I'm new to this role and it's sensible to see how things pan out. Let's have a review in three months time at which point you expect a grown-up, two-way discussion on whether you are right for the role. Either way, within six months you expect that either you will be formally confirmed with the appropriate grade/salary, or they will have hired somebody else do the role and you will remain as you were previously.
If they don't do that - then, well, you know where you stand.
Something along the lines of: appreciate I'm new to this role and it's sensible to see how things pan out. Let's have a review in three months time at which point you expect a grown-up, two-way discussion on whether you are right for the role. Either way, within six months you expect that either you will be formally confirmed with the appropriate grade/salary, or they will have hired somebody else do the role and you will remain as you were previously.
If they don't do that - then, well, you know where you stand.
I think you should give yourself a little bit of time here, and see how it plays out.
Perhaps set out six months, and engage in the work and show what you can do. I would speak to you line manager again and gentle hint that you'd like some clear indication of what sucess in the role looks like, what are the priorities for the position etc
Sometimes it does pay to play the longer game.
Could you perhaps ask for an honorarium / acting up allowance? Maybe something like 50% of the difference between the two roles, which means you get a little bonus for the extra work and they save some money until they make a decision either way.
Personally I wouldn't like the openhandedness of the arrangement, the above advise of setting a 6 month limit might work
Personally I wouldn't like the openhandedness of the arrangement, the above advise of setting a 6 month limit might work
designforlife said:
So, brilliant I think, I can make this role my own and take on more responsibility ....
Have you actually been promoted - or have you just assumed, unofficially, the responsibilities of the previous guy? Have you a memo or something in writing with your new title and duties etc?It sounds like your employers haven't got around to deciding what to do yet and are seeing how you cope. As others have said - play a slightly longer game, have a can-do attitude and review after 12 weeks or so.
It might be worth while you emailing your boss along the lines of 'seeking clarity' about your role and future prospects and that you'd like a formal assessment ... needs to be worded positively.
That's my take.
Thanks guys, all sensible and along the lines of what i'll have to do and play the game I think.
I'm just wary as i've been dicked around by this company in years gone by, and they have been known to screw people over.
I don't really have a choice but to assume the responsibilities of the guy above me, if I don't I suffer, the team suffers, and we all lose.
It all just feels a bit unbalanced at the moment, and there are guys at this level in the company that I know full well are less capable than me...we are only 30 or 40 people total so it's not like i've been invisible for years.
8 years ago I was the sole designer in the entire company for a spell, so I've more than done my time and handled myself and whatever has been thrown.
I'm just wary as i've been dicked around by this company in years gone by, and they have been known to screw people over.
I don't really have a choice but to assume the responsibilities of the guy above me, if I don't I suffer, the team suffers, and we all lose.
It all just feels a bit unbalanced at the moment, and there are guys at this level in the company that I know full well are less capable than me...we are only 30 or 40 people total so it's not like i've been invisible for years.
8 years ago I was the sole designer in the entire company for a spell, so I've more than done my time and handled myself and whatever has been thrown.
I would continue with the role. Make it yours, own it, develop it, become invaluable, then discuss rate increases.
Look at it this way. 5K gross uplift, when taxed is way under £100 a week. So an extra £15 a day. So don't ruin your current relationship for that.
Comes down to pain. Take away the pain from your bosses, in regards to running this team / role. Then later on, once they've got used to a pain free life, then hit them with an increase.
I have a team of 6. My team know about pain, the less pain you cause me then more I need you and will fight to keep you, make you happy :-)
Look at it this way. 5K gross uplift, when taxed is way under £100 a week. So an extra £15 a day. So don't ruin your current relationship for that.
Comes down to pain. Take away the pain from your bosses, in regards to running this team / role. Then later on, once they've got used to a pain free life, then hit them with an increase.
I have a team of 6. My team know about pain, the less pain you cause me then more I need you and will fight to keep you, make you happy :-)
Cool, they want to see how an employee maneuvered into a role he didn't quite ask for and he's not quite paid for handles himself. Pass the popcorn, British management at its finest.
Seriously give them the benefit of the doubt for a bit because what can you do (although from your tone I'm not even sure you're entirely sure you want the job? so the job without the reward is hardly a motivator.) but I'd be dusting off the old CV and seeing where the market is at.
Seriously give them the benefit of the doubt for a bit because what can you do (although from your tone I'm not even sure you're entirely sure you want the job? so the job without the reward is hardly a motivator.) but I'd be dusting off the old CV and seeing where the market is at.
I was very happy in my previous role on my previous account, so no, I didn't seek out this role. But equally an opportunity presented itself and it seemed like a good chance to progress in a company where these roles are few. And really, I don't and didn't have a lot of choice...they started onboarding a junior into my previous team before actually asking me if I wanted to move teams.. I was moved around like a chess piece.
The salary is the sole motivator for me, I paid my dues for the first 4 or 5 years of my career earning crappy money and working all hours...I wouldn't go back to that now unless the reward was there. I like my work but I certainly don't live for my career.
The salary is the sole motivator for me, I paid my dues for the first 4 or 5 years of my career earning crappy money and working all hours...I wouldn't go back to that now unless the reward was there. I like my work but I certainly don't live for my career.
Edited by designforlife on Thursday 31st January 09:29
Ah OK... so you haven't actually been promoted, they're seeing how you cope and then will make a decision... maybe.
My view is that they are being a little unfair here (not massively, but a bit) - you've been there 8 years, they know you, why would they wait? If it was me, I'd promote you immediately if I thought you were the man or recruit someone else for the role at the risk of losing you. They're hedging their bets.
I would drop the boss a note saying how much you are enjoying your new responsibilities and that you look forward to being formally promoted at the end of this trial period... something like that. I'd be happy to help you draft a note if you thought it helpful. They may even see a constructive dismissal claim down the path (if they're bright) if they're giving you the job by default but not the pay to go with it. That's a bit extreme maybe, but as an employer it's something I'd consider.
Don't moan about this internally, get on with the role, act like the promoted person and you'll become it.
My view is that they are being a little unfair here (not massively, but a bit) - you've been there 8 years, they know you, why would they wait? If it was me, I'd promote you immediately if I thought you were the man or recruit someone else for the role at the risk of losing you. They're hedging their bets.
I would drop the boss a note saying how much you are enjoying your new responsibilities and that you look forward to being formally promoted at the end of this trial period... something like that. I'd be happy to help you draft a note if you thought it helpful. They may even see a constructive dismissal claim down the path (if they're bright) if they're giving you the job by default but not the pay to go with it. That's a bit extreme maybe, but as an employer it's something I'd consider.
Don't moan about this internally, get on with the role, act like the promoted person and you'll become it.
The company is only a month in to having lost two people from the same team. You’ve been advanced and they’re considering a double promotion if you’re good for it. They’re looking to see how you’d cope if you lost someone below, not above you.
You’ve spoken with a manager yesterday who’s clarified their position - perhaps without authorisation to do so.
Options?
If you want the big job, get your head down, get on with the task at hand and start considering if there’s someone from your old team/externally that could fill the job you were originally promoted for.
If you don’t want the big job, let them know. There’s nothing wrong with explaining why it’s not right for you at the moment.
Going back with ‘I’m not really happy with this’ isn’t what they’re looking for. ‘I’m not really happy with this, but watch me nail it’ will be evident through results.
You’ve spoken with a manager yesterday who’s clarified their position - perhaps without authorisation to do so.
Options?
If you want the big job, get your head down, get on with the task at hand and start considering if there’s someone from your old team/externally that could fill the job you were originally promoted for.
If you don’t want the big job, let them know. There’s nothing wrong with explaining why it’s not right for you at the moment.
Going back with ‘I’m not really happy with this’ isn’t what they’re looking for. ‘I’m not really happy with this, but watch me nail it’ will be evident through results.
Yes and no, I do have a promotion letter and the 4% raise, but it's all geared and worded for the role that was agreed before xmas, not this new one expanded one which I've had to default into.
It's a bit of a clusterf*ck, but i'd be lying if i said I didn't half expect it.
I have to sign and return the original promotion and salary agreement, i'm still in two minds whether i should at this stage, or hold onto it?
It's a bit of a clusterf*ck, but i'd be lying if i said I didn't half expect it.
I have to sign and return the original promotion and salary agreement, i'm still in two minds whether i should at this stage, or hold onto it?
designforlife said:
Yes and no, I do have a promotion letter and the 4% raise, but it's all geared and worded for the role that was agreed before xmas, not this new one expanded one which I've had to default into.
It's a bit of a clusterf*ck, but i'd be lying if i said I didn't half expect it.
I have to sign and return the original promotion and salary agreement, i'm still in two minds whether i should at this stage, or hold onto it?
Hmmmm....It's a bit of a clusterf*ck, but i'd be lying if i said I didn't half expect it.
I have to sign and return the original promotion and salary agreement, i'm still in two minds whether i should at this stage, or hold onto it?
I think you need to put something in writing, referencing this original unsigned email. The problem with accepting the lower role is that you'll find them saying 'we can't promote you twice' kind of thing.
You need some clarity from them here and it is not unreasonable to ask them for it. Where should you be aiming? What are your prospects? etc.
BRR said:
I personally would just get on with it, after a couple of months I'd request a review and if they weren't forthcoming with one I'd still get on with it and build up my ability of working at the higher level and then look to use my new skills to apply for another job in or outside the company
With a new job title and responsibilities, you can then tell your next prospective employer what you do and then get a better job with better pay.
It does sound like they are doing a bit of dirty on you, and if certain seniors have been incompetent in the past, it’s likely they will be incompetent in the future. Although it’s not unheard of for people to get promoted, enjoy the money, but immediately run away from the responsibility. I got my first managerial opening because 2 engineering team leads did just that.
Like the others have suggested, I would give it 6 months of your time, and make the role yours. Ignore the 4% pay raise for now, and don’t complain at all, see it is a great opportunity to raise your game.
Update your CV with what your new responsibilities are, and within 2.5 – 3 months of your 6 month finishing, get your CV out there, and see what market says. I wouldn’t be surprised if in 12 months and a job change, you would be on £40k+ anyway.
The market is strange just now, with lots of HR teams aggressively recruiting for staff, but lots of uncertainty caused by events that are in the news. However, salaries have gone nowhere (in my line of work especially) in the last 3-4 years since the oil price collapse, so once UK plc knows where it is, things should/may change.
Like the others have suggested, I would give it 6 months of your time, and make the role yours. Ignore the 4% pay raise for now, and don’t complain at all, see it is a great opportunity to raise your game.
Update your CV with what your new responsibilities are, and within 2.5 – 3 months of your 6 month finishing, get your CV out there, and see what market says. I wouldn’t be surprised if in 12 months and a job change, you would be on £40k+ anyway.
The market is strange just now, with lots of HR teams aggressively recruiting for staff, but lots of uncertainty caused by events that are in the news. However, salaries have gone nowhere (in my line of work especially) in the last 3-4 years since the oil price collapse, so once UK plc knows where it is, things should/may change.
Sounds a bit like myself... I would just grin and bear it.
I have been a PM for the past 6 months and awaiting the chat about promotions and payrise to find out what they are going to do about it, before I was a Senior Tech BA, so whilst its a natural progression, its a lot more responsibility and nothing has changed, will see how they like the past 6 months work in the next 3-4 weeks at the annual review.
I just find it the norm.
I have been a PM for the past 6 months and awaiting the chat about promotions and payrise to find out what they are going to do about it, before I was a Senior Tech BA, so whilst its a natural progression, its a lot more responsibility and nothing has changed, will see how they like the past 6 months work in the next 3-4 weeks at the annual review.
I just find it the norm.
You find the top of one scale and the bottom of another are often very close or overlap.
Big payrises don't happen very often, and even less within the same business. I'd give it six months, work hard, make you bosses life easier not harder, if you get the chap working under you then you negotiate with your boss. Salary will follow title, not the other way round.
In the meantime, ask for management training or similar. As previously posted. Go in positive.
Big payrises don't happen very often, and even less within the same business. I'd give it six months, work hard, make you bosses life easier not harder, if you get the chap working under you then you negotiate with your boss. Salary will follow title, not the other way round.
In the meantime, ask for management training or similar. As previously posted. Go in positive.
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