Value proposition - Gen 2 997 or 991 T
Discussion
Hi all,
I've been looking at getting into a 997 C2S (Maybe C4S) and it looks like good examples with c.50k miles are around the £45/50k mark. I'd aim to keep the car for 4 years and do about 5-6k per year in it. My preference is manual but most are PDK, that's also fine by me.
However to throw a cat among the pigeons, this lovely forum has got me looking at Carrera T's. Used approved these are £85k for nearly new! Yes it's nearly double (Shocker an OP compares new expensive car to cheaper old car), however it's 10 years newer and has driving appeal due to the nature of the car. I think it looks stunning
My question is does the T (with back seats) make a better value proposition due to the value of what you get? It will cost more obviously, but actually will the T in 4 years be worth 55k - 60k and therefore doesn't actually cost that much. I guess the 997 will drop to £25-£30k
(I can afford both, it's a question in my head of prioritisation of my money)
I've been looking at getting into a 997 C2S (Maybe C4S) and it looks like good examples with c.50k miles are around the £45/50k mark. I'd aim to keep the car for 4 years and do about 5-6k per year in it. My preference is manual but most are PDK, that's also fine by me.
However to throw a cat among the pigeons, this lovely forum has got me looking at Carrera T's. Used approved these are £85k for nearly new! Yes it's nearly double (Shocker an OP compares new expensive car to cheaper old car), however it's 10 years newer and has driving appeal due to the nature of the car. I think it looks stunning
My question is does the T (with back seats) make a better value proposition due to the value of what you get? It will cost more obviously, but actually will the T in 4 years be worth 55k - 60k and therefore doesn't actually cost that much. I guess the 997 will drop to £25-£30k
(I can afford both, it's a question in my head of prioritisation of my money)
I think your value estimate for the 991T is probably ok. For the 997 (esp a manual car), I think you might well be too conservative - assuming the entire car market does not collapse (I think this might happen btw) - I think a 997.2 could possibly pretty much stay static in terms of value / depreciate very little.
I have not driven a 991, so can't opine on that. I did drive a 997.2 C2S with sports exhaust a bit about 10 years ago though and thought the car was amazing. I also think they are very good looking cars, better than the 991.
I have not driven a 991, so can't opine on that. I did drive a 997.2 C2S with sports exhaust a bit about 10 years ago though and thought the car was amazing. I also think they are very good looking cars, better than the 991.
Don’t discount the non S 997, the 3.6 - it’s a great engine, spins sweetly through the rev range & combined with a manual ‘box it’s a really good package.
You’ll need one with PASM and sports exhaust, lowered suspension looks way better than the ‘pram like’ stance without.
There’s a red one at Harbour at the moment for £38k I think with low miles.
You’ll need one with PASM and sports exhaust, lowered suspension looks way better than the ‘pram like’ stance without.
There’s a red one at Harbour at the moment for £38k I think with low miles.
Edited by MrVert on Thursday 31st January 14:46
Almost impossible to answer future value issue in my view. However, for what its worth I am so pleased with the T as an enjoyable
and rewarding road car that I see it as a keeper. Of course it needs to be properly specced but should always have a following once the cars fall out from OPC's into the specialist market.
and rewarding road car that I see it as a keeper. Of course it needs to be properly specced but should always have a following once the cars fall out from OPC's into the specialist market.
I’ve got a manual 997 GTS and thought about a Carrera T but came to the conclusion that the GTS which produces just over 400 naturally aspirated horse power and weighs pretty much the same as the T is a better proposition. The T is less powerful and it’s a Turbo charged engine.
You can get a manual 997 GTS for somewhere in the low £60k’s (they aren’t that common but there are 4 on Auto Trader at the moment).
The Powerkit engine in the GTS is that bit better revving out than the standard S so makes a very good partner for the manual box.
I’d say the T will depreciate in line with the GTS models so have a look at what the % depreciation has been like 3 or 4 year old 991.1 GTS to get an idea of what a T will be worth in three years. Obviously ex an implosion in car values.
You can get a manual 997 GTS for somewhere in the low £60k’s (they aren’t that common but there are 4 on Auto Trader at the moment).
The Powerkit engine in the GTS is that bit better revving out than the standard S so makes a very good partner for the manual box.
I’d say the T will depreciate in line with the GTS models so have a look at what the % depreciation has been like 3 or 4 year old 991.1 GTS to get an idea of what a T will be worth in three years. Obviously ex an implosion in car values.
I must say some very good views there. Head suggests 997.2 as ultimately buying a cheaper car is....well cheaper. I do think I should hunt for a manual tho, and not settle for PDK just because it’s easier. I often preferred driving the wife’s manual mini to the rs6 for that reason.
Heart says 991 T - I need to drive both, hopefully back to back and see which makes me feel the most
I’m off to browse 997.2 3.6 as that’s definitely worth consideration
Heart says 991 T - I need to drive both, hopefully back to back and see which makes me feel the most
I’m off to browse 997.2 3.6 as that’s definitely worth consideration
I'm not sure a 997.2S manual will drop anywhere near as much as from £45k-£50k to £25k over 4 years.
They are the most sought after of the non GT 997s and have held their value steadily for several years, much like the R8 and Aston Vantage, as they are last of breed for manual non turbo cars. The T by contrast is hard to see holding value like that. The servicing costs over 10 years on a 997.2 - you can pretty much guarantee if you strip out tyres, brakes and servicing as they would be similar on both, the 997 might need £5k-£10k in maintenance in a worst case scenario. The T would likely lose a lot more than that in depreciation unless you're keeping it longer than 4 years
They are the most sought after of the non GT 997s and have held their value steadily for several years, much like the R8 and Aston Vantage, as they are last of breed for manual non turbo cars. The T by contrast is hard to see holding value like that. The servicing costs over 10 years on a 997.2 - you can pretty much guarantee if you strip out tyres, brakes and servicing as they would be similar on both, the 997 might need £5k-£10k in maintenance in a worst case scenario. The T would likely lose a lot more than that in depreciation unless you're keeping it longer than 4 years
I picked up a delivery miles 991.2 Carrera T late last year with an idea that it would be a great platform to modify. Out of the box, the 3.0L engine is hobbled at 370 PS so it doesn't step on more expensive models' toes.
So last week I took the plunge and took it to 9e for tuning with custom maps and a full Kline inconel exhaust including headers. Picked it up from 9e yesterday. What a car!
It now makes around 550PS and is completely transformed from the one I dropped off last week. It feels like it has the pace of a turbo S but its much more engaging than my old 991.2 turbo S with a manual box in a narrow bodied lightweight RWD car. And it sounds fantastic.
Pulls in 2nd and 3rd gear are insane and all the way up in 7th there's loads of torque so I found I wasn't needing to change down to take advantage of gaps in the traffic. The turbos on the T are very small but you wouldn't know it. Probably helps it drive more like a NA car as there's almost no lag.
As to warranty, I don't really care
It has a boggo 3.0L Carrera engine, it's not an exotic V12. If it goes pop it can get replaced or rebuilt for a few months worth of McLaren depreciation And anyway I'd trust Ken to stand behind his work and sort it.
I'm now going to drive it for a bit and enjoy (it's my daily). Fuller write up to follow with some more miles.
So last week I took the plunge and took it to 9e for tuning with custom maps and a full Kline inconel exhaust including headers. Picked it up from 9e yesterday. What a car!
It now makes around 550PS and is completely transformed from the one I dropped off last week. It feels like it has the pace of a turbo S but its much more engaging than my old 991.2 turbo S with a manual box in a narrow bodied lightweight RWD car. And it sounds fantastic.
Pulls in 2nd and 3rd gear are insane and all the way up in 7th there's loads of torque so I found I wasn't needing to change down to take advantage of gaps in the traffic. The turbos on the T are very small but you wouldn't know it. Probably helps it drive more like a NA car as there's almost no lag.
As to warranty, I don't really care
It has a boggo 3.0L Carrera engine, it's not an exotic V12. If it goes pop it can get replaced or rebuilt for a few months worth of McLaren depreciation And anyway I'd trust Ken to stand behind his work and sort it. I'm now going to drive it for a bit and enjoy (it's my daily). Fuller write up to follow with some more miles.
That’s an interesting increase in power almost 200bhp added, there were no other gearbox/drivetrain or eg suspension adjustments needed?
Good to hear you are so pleased with the first impressions since picking it up yesterday-9e have a great reputation- any idea how big a change it’s had on mpg?
Good to hear you are so pleased with the first impressions since picking it up yesterday-9e have a great reputation- any idea how big a change it’s had on mpg?
GT3ZZZ said:
It now makes around 550PS
That's a sensational increase am I reading it right? That a base 991.2 can map to 997.2 Turbo S power!?I guess it's just as well for Porsche that they make modifying so unpalatable on newer cars due to their warranty restrictions, you must be in a minority with what you've done
Mind you buy a 997.2 Turbo S for £85k and spend some money modding that and that's surely a different ball game again!
Definitely try a manual 997.2 which I never got the opportunity too and plumped for a 997 4 GTS which was a massive mistake. I just found it quite dull to drive and hated the 18-way sofa seats but super happy with my manual T with buckets. From a financial perspective I'd expect the 997.2 manual to hold up better against a T.
In a back to back test drive the engine roar of the 997 will woo you but the T is a car that gets better with more miles. Hexagon usually have a few manual 997's. They've had the two cabrio's for ages.
In a back to back test drive the engine roar of the 997 will woo you but the T is a car that gets better with more miles. Hexagon usually have a few manual 997's. They've had the two cabrio's for ages.
Ed T, not being funny but have you driven both? They are rather different cars. The 997.2 is much more of a sports car, in my view; slightly smaller and with fewer driver aids. I hated the manual 'box in the 991.1 whereas the PDK in a 997.2 is sublime. The 991 is more of a GT car, I think.
I'm not sure which is better, but you should try to get a drive in each given the money involved.
I'm not sure which is better, but you should try to get a drive in each given the money involved.
Fascinating range of views.
No right or wrong answers here.
After 15k miles in a 997.2 GTS PDK, I switched to a new T last March and have done 7k miles in it.
I personally prefer the T.
Best choice depends on personal preferences.
The 997.2 is just starting to fall into the zone where it is modern but not new. The PDK is great but it is gen 1 technology and it has been improved several times since, as has satnav, phone integration etc. If you want to stream music etc. then the younger cars work better.
To many, the sound alone from the GTS with its power kit is reason enough to choose it. The steering is sublime, it’s a wonderful package. It is more visceral.
The T has narrow body, numerous subtle improvements, up to date (ish) technology, but it’s a great package, misunderstood by most journalists on release, loved by owners, quick enough, decent manual gearbox, great ride/handling balance, feels special, is special. Time will be kind to it. Will certainly depreciate more than a 997.2 in the short term but will be cheaper to maintain.
No bad answer to the question which is preferable.
No right or wrong answers here.
After 15k miles in a 997.2 GTS PDK, I switched to a new T last March and have done 7k miles in it.
I personally prefer the T.
Best choice depends on personal preferences.
The 997.2 is just starting to fall into the zone where it is modern but not new. The PDK is great but it is gen 1 technology and it has been improved several times since, as has satnav, phone integration etc. If you want to stream music etc. then the younger cars work better.
To many, the sound alone from the GTS with its power kit is reason enough to choose it. The steering is sublime, it’s a wonderful package. It is more visceral.
The T has narrow body, numerous subtle improvements, up to date (ish) technology, but it’s a great package, misunderstood by most journalists on release, loved by owners, quick enough, decent manual gearbox, great ride/handling balance, feels special, is special. Time will be kind to it. Will certainly depreciate more than a 997.2 in the short term but will be cheaper to maintain.
No bad answer to the question which is preferable.
Edited by rob.kellock on Friday 1st February 22:44
I didn't get the 991T at first. I thought it was - like many have pointed out - just a base model Carrera with an LSD, some thinner glass and couple of options available that aren't normally.
Then I tried the Miami blue one at OPC Silverstone. It had 918 buckets, carbon brakes, manual, lots of alcantara and that's about it. I absolutely loved it. This going to be seen by some as heresy, but I think it's much more fun on the road than the GT3RS. It's got the right amount of everything.
Obviously comparing cars that are miles apart in age and price is illogical, but the 991T probably represents everything Porsche got right about the 991. The 997.2 with PDK isn't really a stand out example of the 997 - I'd prefer the manual. I also don't think the first of the direct injection engines was that engaging either....but I'll probably get shot down for that too.
As always, try both.
Then I tried the Miami blue one at OPC Silverstone. It had 918 buckets, carbon brakes, manual, lots of alcantara and that's about it. I absolutely loved it. This going to be seen by some as heresy, but I think it's much more fun on the road than the GT3RS. It's got the right amount of everything.
Obviously comparing cars that are miles apart in age and price is illogical, but the 991T probably represents everything Porsche got right about the 991. The 997.2 with PDK isn't really a stand out example of the 997 - I'd prefer the manual. I also don't think the first of the direct injection engines was that engaging either....but I'll probably get shot down for that too.
As always, try both.
Griffgrog said:
I didn't get the 991T at first. I thought it was - like many have pointed out - just a base model Carrera with an LSD, some thinner glass and couple of options available that aren't normally.
Then I tried the Miami blue one at OPC Silverstone. It had 918 buckets, carbon brakes, manual, lots of alcantara and that's about it. I absolutely loved it. This going to be seen by some as heresy, but I think it's much more fun on the road than the GT3RS. It's got the right amount of everything.
Obviously comparing cars that are miles apart in age and price is illogical, but the 991T probably represents everything Porsche got right about the 991. The 997.2 with PDK isn't really a stand out example of the 997 - I'd prefer the manual. I also don't think the first of the direct injection engines was that engaging either....but I'll probably get shot down for that too.
As always, try both.
BangThen I tried the Miami blue one at OPC Silverstone. It had 918 buckets, carbon brakes, manual, lots of alcantara and that's about it. I absolutely loved it. This going to be seen by some as heresy, but I think it's much more fun on the road than the GT3RS. It's got the right amount of everything.
Obviously comparing cars that are miles apart in age and price is illogical, but the 991T probably represents everything Porsche got right about the 991. The 997.2 with PDK isn't really a stand out example of the 997 - I'd prefer the manual. I also don't think the first of the direct injection engines was that engaging either....but I'll probably get shot down for that too.
As always, try both.
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