About time TVR?
Discussion
So now Morgan have followed Lotus in fitting ABS and airbags to their cars what excuses can TVR have left? Ferrari did it years ago. In PH we get a steady stream of posts about TVR deaths, write offs and crashes. This winter has been especially bad. Surely the time has come to bolt on this cheap, lifesaving technology?
I agree - there's no excuse for at least offering ABS as an option. It's not like it's new and expensive technology anymore, and I'm equally sure they could bolt on a GM or Ford generic version of it without too much development.
Not sure that developing air bags would be that much hassle either, but would be interested to hear from anyone in the business if I'm wrong (almost certainly as usual)!
I think the one area that is very difficult for small manufacturers is the NCAP style tests. I gather that it costs millions to hire the test facilities, and obviously they have to crash alot of real cars (which always brings a tear to the eye).
And what about traction control?? Surely that would address alot of issues with TVRs? I for one have been glad of my Boxster's PSM on more than one occasion. As long as you can turn it completely off so that the people who hate leccy aids don't complain :-)
>> Edited by jezzaaa on Monday 16th May 12:28
Not sure that developing air bags would be that much hassle either, but would be interested to hear from anyone in the business if I'm wrong (almost certainly as usual)!
I think the one area that is very difficult for small manufacturers is the NCAP style tests. I gather that it costs millions to hire the test facilities, and obviously they have to crash alot of real cars (which always brings a tear to the eye).
And what about traction control?? Surely that would address alot of issues with TVRs? I for one have been glad of my Boxster's PSM on more than one occasion. As long as you can turn it completely off so that the people who hate leccy aids don't complain :-)
>> Edited by jezzaaa on Monday 16th May 12:28
Ahhh..the ABS debate again.
There are two questions - "should they" and "will they".
Should they - everyone has a different view point it seems. I think they should myself.
Will they - not until there is an economic argument for it. i.e. Until customers stop buying the cars because its not fitted or we get legislation such that they're not allowed to sell cars without ABS.
My money is on legislation finally forcing TVR to fit the system....could be a while, though.
There are two questions - "should they" and "will they".
Should they - everyone has a different view point it seems. I think they should myself.
Will they - not until there is an economic argument for it. i.e. Until customers stop buying the cars because its not fitted or we get legislation such that they're not allowed to sell cars without ABS.
My money is on legislation finally forcing TVR to fit the system....could be a while, though.
I think it should be made an option. Also, TVRs are essentially 'mechanical' cars and ABS is a 'mechanical' as opposed to an 'electronic' system.
As for airbags, I'm not entirely convinced and I think they make steering wheels less useable as the increased gubbins necessitates power steering and a load of electronics.
As for traction control and EBD, it always irritates me that it's a system you turn off, rather than turn on. Earlier systems used in Vauxhalls were as a 'wet/icy roads' system that you switched on if you felt the conditions were such, and you understood that the car recognised the road. I think the current safety systems don't involve the driver enough. 'wet/icy system' makes much more sense to me than 'a load of acronyms that the man in the showroom said would keep me safe'.
As for airbags, I'm not entirely convinced and I think they make steering wheels less useable as the increased gubbins necessitates power steering and a load of electronics.
As for traction control and EBD, it always irritates me that it's a system you turn off, rather than turn on. Earlier systems used in Vauxhalls were as a 'wet/icy roads' system that you switched on if you felt the conditions were such, and you understood that the car recognised the road. I think the current safety systems don't involve the driver enough. 'wet/icy system' makes much more sense to me than 'a load of acronyms that the man in the showroom said would keep me safe'.
The only vehicle I have had with any driver aids was my last vitara and that only had airbags and PAS,
To be honest I couldn’t care less if it had them or not and I don’t care if my Chim has them or not.
The car is meant to be driven using your brain and you assessing the situation, not some electronic gizmos who cant read the situation (sounds like a scamera argument)
Claire - I am glad it has PAS though..!
To be honest I couldn’t care less if it had them or not and I don’t care if my Chim has them or not.
The car is meant to be driven using your brain and you assessing the situation, not some electronic gizmos who cant read the situation (sounds like a scamera argument)
Claire - I am glad it has PAS though..!
TVR's are not that kind of car. I can see the argument for ABS has some legs as long as it's not too intrusive, but the airbag one is irrelevant -you usually sit quite far back from the steering wheel if you are seated correctly.
Traction control, in a TVR, is just plain sacrilege!!!
-That's why they have such a long throttle travel.
Traction control, in a TVR, is just plain sacrilege!!!
-That's why they have such a long throttle travel.
I reckon they will fit ABS soon.
It is a pretty useful aid if set up correctly (i.e. not too sensitive). We have 2 Audis in the stable (A6 and TT). I have only ever had the ABS cut in when braking hard on a very wet road or on snow/ice. Exactly when I want it (i.e. not in the dry).
Why not make it available as an option? - then the customers can vote with their wallets and it costs TVR less. I would spec it.
It is a pretty useful aid if set up correctly (i.e. not too sensitive). We have 2 Audis in the stable (A6 and TT). I have only ever had the ABS cut in when braking hard on a very wet road or on snow/ice. Exactly when I want it (i.e. not in the dry).
Why not make it available as an option? - then the customers can vote with their wallets and it costs TVR less. I would spec it.
Why is assumed that all TVR's are driven everywhere at maximum possible speed?
Why is it assumed that if you are going to have an accident, you are more likely to in a TVR? Quite frankly Peter Wheeler is right, if you cannot control your right foot for the conditions, should you be part of the TVR community? Again, I find myself in accord with Incorrigible - he's right. Harsh, perhaps, but true never the less.
If you are concerned that you will crash in the rain in your TVR, buy a cheap eurobox/asianbox which you can run in the rain and snow - likely it will have functioning airbags and some sort of side impact protection.
TVR is not PC - never will be and it's why we love them. If you want a PC car with all the safety aids and options, then buy a Porsche/Ferrari/Masserati/Other expensive supercar.
It's no coincidence TVR's are thousands of pounds less than the competition - they spend less on safety and development. It's a kit car with bells on FFS!
Why is it assumed that if you are going to have an accident, you are more likely to in a TVR? Quite frankly Peter Wheeler is right, if you cannot control your right foot for the conditions, should you be part of the TVR community? Again, I find myself in accord with Incorrigible - he's right. Harsh, perhaps, but true never the less.
If you are concerned that you will crash in the rain in your TVR, buy a cheap eurobox/asianbox which you can run in the rain and snow - likely it will have functioning airbags and some sort of side impact protection.
TVR is not PC - never will be and it's why we love them. If you want a PC car with all the safety aids and options, then buy a Porsche/Ferrari/Masserati/Other expensive supercar.
It's no coincidence TVR's are thousands of pounds less than the competition - they spend less on safety and development. It's a kit car with bells on FFS!
GOD !!!!! This argument makes me so angry. F**k ABS, F**k Traction control and F**k Political Correctness. ABS aint going to help if, for example, you are going sideways.Fact. If you get into that position, and you arent in control, then you F**ked Up. Live with it or buy something more in line with your abilities. Flame me if you like, but dont interfere with my right to make a choice.
If you want to see what happens when you have ABS, Traction Control etc, refer to Balmorals (unfortunate) thread. What good did it do there?
Kim
If you want to see what happens when you have ABS, Traction Control etc, refer to Balmorals (unfortunate) thread. What good did it do there?
Kim
Traction control can lure people into a false sense of security. Last accident I saw was when I went to pick up a couple of friends for a hike in the Lakes. Was very icy and I was spinning up in 3rd in the landie. In the time it took me to pick up a m8 from his house and come back the way I came (5 mins) there was already a BMW 3 series backwards through a hedge. On a straight piece of road.
Thing is calibrating an ABS system is a MASSIVE task.
For a manufacturer the size of TVR this would add a huge amount to the price of new cars or in all probability be a poor installation such as that found on the retrofitted module on the VX
The Exige ABS module is very good comparatively but how many S1 and S2 Elises did they have to sell to finance the tuning of such a module? Rather more than TVR have sold cars in total I would wager.
It comes down to development costs fundamentally and if TVR hike prices they will be getting near Porsche money for significantly (overall) lower build quality and negligible performance gains.
The installation of ABS could ruin TVR.
For a manufacturer the size of TVR this would add a huge amount to the price of new cars or in all probability be a poor installation such as that found on the retrofitted module on the VX
The Exige ABS module is very good comparatively but how many S1 and S2 Elises did they have to sell to finance the tuning of such a module? Rather more than TVR have sold cars in total I would wager.
It comes down to development costs fundamentally and if TVR hike prices they will be getting near Porsche money for significantly (overall) lower build quality and negligible performance gains.
The installation of ABS could ruin TVR.
I'd prefer no ABS or a switchable system.
However, for a company like TVR there is a risk that development of a system like this could cost a very large sum of money unless they used a bought in system.
In my opinion, the car should be controlled by the driver, not a computer. Who is to say that ABS is going to prevent any accidents? I have had instances in the wet where (when I was driving too fast) it was only locked wheels which prevented me entering a ditch. ABS would have forced me into the ditch.
Peter Dron, in a column in evo, raised this general subject (GPS and computer control of cars if I remember rightly).
He highlighted examples where the electronics of cars was interfered with by electrical pulses (from power lines I believe). He also asked how many people feel safe in a modern aircraft where there are no mechanical links between pilot and machine, only electrical links.
(some makers who don't use ABS: TVR, Noble, Caterham, Morgan, Bristol, Westfield)
However, for a company like TVR there is a risk that development of a system like this could cost a very large sum of money unless they used a bought in system.
In my opinion, the car should be controlled by the driver, not a computer. Who is to say that ABS is going to prevent any accidents? I have had instances in the wet where (when I was driving too fast) it was only locked wheels which prevented me entering a ditch. ABS would have forced me into the ditch.
Peter Dron, in a column in evo, raised this general subject (GPS and computer control of cars if I remember rightly).
He highlighted examples where the electronics of cars was interfered with by electrical pulses (from power lines I believe). He also asked how many people feel safe in a modern aircraft where there are no mechanical links between pilot and machine, only electrical links.
(some makers who don't use ABS: TVR, Noble, Caterham, Morgan, Bristol, Westfield)
I'm still confused about my feelings for these devices.
Last week I spent some time on skid surfaces and wet slalom courses driving a variety of Mercedes.
The contrast between one of those beasts and say a Cerbera was startling. Whilst they weren't fun to drive, the capabilities were stunning. I could not get them out of shape despite hurling them into wet corners at great speed (E500 ain't a small car!). I guess I wasn't trying hard enough as there has to be a limit somewhere.
Had I driven the Cerbera on there, it would have been all over the shop.
So, which is safer? The Cerbera that I drive with great respect or the Mercedes style ESP equipped car that is almost impossible to crash?
You're left with the Catch 22:
1) If something unexpected caught me out in the Cerbera, I'd like controls like this to help me
2) If I had controls like this to help me, I'd drive the Cerbera with less respect and probably be more likely to put myself in danger
Last week I spent some time on skid surfaces and wet slalom courses driving a variety of Mercedes.
The contrast between one of those beasts and say a Cerbera was startling. Whilst they weren't fun to drive, the capabilities were stunning. I could not get them out of shape despite hurling them into wet corners at great speed (E500 ain't a small car!). I guess I wasn't trying hard enough as there has to be a limit somewhere.
Had I driven the Cerbera on there, it would have been all over the shop.
So, which is safer? The Cerbera that I drive with great respect or the Mercedes style ESP equipped car that is almost impossible to crash?
You're left with the Catch 22:
1) If something unexpected caught me out in the Cerbera, I'd like controls like this to help me
2) If I had controls like this to help me, I'd drive the Cerbera with less respect and probably be more likely to put myself in danger
los angeles said:
The only thing I'd like on my Chim is side-impact protection.
Only ever expecting to be T-boned, are you? And what if you don't see the oil or grease patch as you drive out of a roundabout, give a "safe" amount of acceleration, skid, and hit a tree side on? Would it not be better not to have skidded at all?
One of the reasons for selling the Griff was it's lack of protectoin, didn't think it would bother me but it started to take the shine off owning it. Never felt the need for ABS or TC though
There seems to be a lot of confusion on this thread between ABS (anti-lock braking) and traction/stability control systems.
I pesonally don't find ABS too intrusive. If it intervenes, it's because you are doing something wrong. I quite often find that the ABS on my tin box just cuts in for a fraction of a second as I am already moderating my braking because I've sensed the tyres reaching the limit of their braking grip, anyway. In other words, the ABS is reacting no better or worse than I am myself, and really only acts to confirm my own reactions.
ABS is not usually switchable, and should not be - the insurance companies wouldn't like a switchable system for a start!
TCS/stability control can be a pain in the arse, and personally I switch it off most of the time. But it is usually switchable, so you have the choice, and there are times on wet, slippy roads when I'd like my Griffith to be fitted with a decent stability control system so that I can drive without expending quite so much concentration on what the tyres are doing at the expense of everything else that is going on.
I can see no excuse for TVR not fitting ABS and switchable stability control these days. If nothing else, it might save a few of the people who are killed each winter in these cars.
I pesonally don't find ABS too intrusive. If it intervenes, it's because you are doing something wrong. I quite often find that the ABS on my tin box just cuts in for a fraction of a second as I am already moderating my braking because I've sensed the tyres reaching the limit of their braking grip, anyway. In other words, the ABS is reacting no better or worse than I am myself, and really only acts to confirm my own reactions.
ABS is not usually switchable, and should not be - the insurance companies wouldn't like a switchable system for a start!
TCS/stability control can be a pain in the arse, and personally I switch it off most of the time. But it is usually switchable, so you have the choice, and there are times on wet, slippy roads when I'd like my Griffith to be fitted with a decent stability control system so that I can drive without expending quite so much concentration on what the tyres are doing at the expense of everything else that is going on.
I can see no excuse for TVR not fitting ABS and switchable stability control these days. If nothing else, it might save a few of the people who are killed each winter in these cars.
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