When UK trains were proper trains

[Gandahar]

They had that sound and you could smoke on them, replicating the smoke from the engine in days gone buy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBL71A3XRc0

I'm not and old fuddy duddy by any way though, I am more than happy to have wifi 802.11(add some letters here) and the ability to smoke a Castello cigar at the same time.

OK, ripping up that new track to get the old sound back will take time, but post Brexit we might need something to do rather than make cars.

Anyone for a BR pork pie ?

[anonymous-user]

i remember a smoking carriage in 1999 or 2000. it stunk, tar stained everywhere. nothing romantic about it, good riddance.

[theboss]

Yep, coach B on a HST - I travelled from Cheltenham to Cumbria and back regularly as a teen in the 90’s and remember it well. If you looked through the glass doors from either vestibule you could hardly see the other end of the coach on a bad day

[Europa1]

I miss corridor carriages.

[anonymous-user]

Europa1 said:

I miss corridor carriages.

I went 1st class from Nuremberg to Stuttgart 2 years ago, it was like going back 30 years. they still use them.

[Europa1]

Thesprucegoose said:

Europa1 said:

I miss corridor carriages.

I went 1st class from Nuremberg to Stuttgart 2 years ago, it was like going back 30 years. they still use them.

And proper restaurant cars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhisIT_CuQ8

[miniman]

I used to get the coast train from Brighton to Bath back in the mid-90s. Relaxing with a book and a pack of Marlboro for a few hours, very pleasant.

[2xChevrons]

Europa1 said:

I miss corridor carriages.

I can just about remember the old 4CEP electric units in the immediate post-privatisation days of South West Trains and Connex South Central. They were ancient and pretty decrepit, but the corridor section with the 3+3 compartments were so comfortable - semi-private compartment, wide and well-stuffed seats with nicely-shaped head rests and they were in the trailer units so no motor or compressor noise. Plus those units were designed when there was still a lot of parcel/newspaper/piece-goods traffic shuttling in and out of London so they had large empty brake compartments which would be great for storing bikes and pushchairs in these days.

I know the BR designers who did the Mk1 stock had the luxury of huge budgets, a dozen carriage works to keep in business, cheap labour and a general 'New Jerusalem' ethos, plus lower passenger volumes, but it's still a shame that outright passenger comfort seems to get such a low priority on the modern stock, however efficient it is as a people-moving system.

[48k]

Thesprucegoose said:

Europa1 said:

I miss corridor carriages.

I went 1st class from Nuremberg to Stuttgart 2 years ago, it was like going back 30 years. they still use them.

I want to go to Penzance for the weekend just so that I can try the Riviera Sleeper

https://youtu.be/lV6UHjDPn0g

[itcaptainslow]

Funnily enough yesterday I drove probably for the last time the oldest stock still in passenger service on the mainline-a class 313, introduced in 1976. Built as a dual voltage unit for suburban commuter services, it’s being replaced soon by 717’s (a derivative of the 700, which are soulless cattle trucks).

It’ll be a sad day too when HST’s are retired; unfortunately I don’t think I’ll ever realise a childhood dream of driving one.

[rs1952]

itcaptainslow said:

Funnily enough yesterday I drove probably for the last time the oldest stock still in passenger service on the mainline-a class 313, introduced in 1976. Built as a dual voltage unit for suburban commuter services, it’s being replaced soon by 717’s (a derivative of the 700, which are soulless cattle trucks).

It’ll be a sad day too when HST’s are retired; unfortunately I don’t think I’ll ever realise a childhood dream of driving one.

If you count the Island Line on the Isle of Wight (Ryde to Shanklin) they are still using ex-Northern Line LT stock that dates from 1938

Odd place, railway-wise. the Isle of Wight. Since the heritage Isle of Wight Steam Railway got their mits on their Ivatt 2-6-2 tanks, built in the early 1950s, some of their steam locomotives are newer that the trains in use on the "proper" railway

[itcaptainslow]

rs1952 said:

If you count the Island Line on the Isle of Wight (Ryde to Shanklin) they are still using ex-Northern Line LT stock that dates from 1938

Odd place, railway-wise. the Isle of Wight. Since the heritage Isle of Wight Steam Railway got their mits on their Ivatt 2-6-2 tanks, built in the early 1950s, some of their steam locomotives are newer that the trains in use on the "proper" railway

I didn’t count the IoW as mainline but yes, makes the 313 look like it’s just hit puberty

[Nik da Greek]

itcaptainslow said:

Funnily enough yesterday I drove probably for the last time the oldest stock still in passenger service on the mainline-a class 313, introduced in 1976. Built as a dual voltage unit for suburban commuter services, it’s being replaced soon by 717’s (a derivative of the 700, which are soulless cattle trucks).

It’ll be a sad day too when HST’s are retired; unfortunately I don’t think I’ll ever realise a childhood dream of driving one.

You on the GN then, into Moorgate? I gather that's the only reason for the 717s, so you can do evacuation through the ends in single-bore tunnels. Apparently the doors drop quite easy but it takes at least two blokes to lift them closed again

We still have plenty of 313s down here in the Deep South. They have an unpleasant habit of catching fire

[48k]

rs1952 said:

Odd place, railway-wise. the Isle of Wight.

The words "railway" and "wise" are superfluous in this sentence.

[itcaptainslow]

Nik da Greek said:

itcaptainslow said:

Funnily enough yesterday I drove probably for the last time the oldest stock still in passenger service on the mainline-a class 313, introduced in 1976. Built as a dual voltage unit for suburban commuter services, it’s being replaced soon by 717’s (a derivative of the 700, which are soulless cattle trucks).

It’ll be a sad day too when HST’s are retired; unfortunately I don’t think I’ll ever realise a childhood dream of driving one.

You on the GN then, into Moorgate? I gather that's the only reason for the 717s, so you can do evacuation through the ends in single-bore tunnels. Apparently the doors drop quite easy but it takes at least two blokes to lift them closed again

We still have plenty of 313s down here in the Deep South. They have an unpleasant habit of catching fire

I’m a GN man, however I don’t sign Moorgate anymore! Based at Cambridge so I sign Kings Lynn through to Brighton. Drove a 313 the other day as I was asked to cross cover another depot’s work. We won’t sign the 717’s apparently.

313’s were purpose built for the NCL apparently-the roof is lower. They’re not bad units to be fair, they’re just tired and suffering from bare bones maintenance now that they’re going soon.

[Pinkie15]

Liked the 4CEP emus, using Waterloo to W&E Riverside service 1st was unclassified, loved sitting in those compartments as a kid, and then as a commuter.

Hate the 'modern' 700 class out of King's X, horrid passenger experience. Much preferred the (seemingly) mk3 TSO derived emu and the sleeker looking ones that supplemented them from late 90s onwards (don't know the class designations for these).

Captslow - interested to know how these compare from the drivers perspective ?

As for IC stock, the Mk3's I thought were a huge step up from Mk 1/mk 2 carriages; travelled ecml from Kings X to Waverly at least once a year in 70s & 80s. Walking through 'smoking' carriage when going from TGS to TRUB always thought the a/c system did a great job of cleaning the air.

Didn't like the Mk4s so much on the 225s.


Though I do enjoy the'nostalgia' of a mk1/mk2 on a heritage line

[Europa1]

2xChevrons said:

I know the BR designers who did the Mk1 stock had the luxury of huge budgets, a dozen carriage works to keep in business, cheap labour and a general 'New Jerusalem' ethos, plus lower passenger volumes, but it's still a shame that outright passenger comfort seems to get such a low priority on the modern stock, however efficient it is as a people-moving system.

I agree - compare first class on an HST to the ICE trains, and it's hard to see why passengers are charged extra for first class in the new trains. Compare it to the premium class on Italy's high speed trains: https://www.trenitalia.com/tcom-en/Frecce/Frecciar...

[itcaptainslow]

Pinkie15 said:

Hate the 'modern' 700 class out of King's X, horrid passenger experience. Much preferred the (seemingly) mk3 TSO derived emu and the sleeker looking ones that supplemented them from late 90s onwards (don't know the class designations for these).

Captslow - interested to know how these compare from the drivers perspective ?

I currently sign;

313


365 (the 90’s EMU I suspect you’re thinking of)


387


700


I did also previously sign;

317


321


Best out of that lot in my book were 321’s. Smooth, quiet, comfortable and with good cab A/C you could leave on when changing ends (don’t underestimate this on a hot day!). The cab is also nicely laid out with a good view. The brakes weren’t the best but were at least predictable, and enabled you to give a really silky stop for passengers. I also liked the separate power & brake controllers. Great units and a shame when we lost them. I was always happy when working a 321 diagram or when one turned up instead of anything else.

Best out of the current lot I sign are 365’s-reliable, quick (thanks to AC traction motors rather than DC in 313, 317 and 321), probably the unit my traction knowledge is the strongest on and have the best mix of technology without over complicating things. Unfortunately we don’t see a lot of them at Cambridge now (we used to all the time when they went to Kings Lynn).

Worst are the 700’s. The cab is nice (central seating position like a HST and good A/C) and they’re fast, but there’s no feel to driving them and the brakes...are ste. Unpredictable and weak unless you give them full service applications (which then results in an uncomfortable ride! Also heavy full service use is frowned upon in the professional driving guidelines we have) and they suffer from fade at lower speeds thanks to the rheostatic/air brake blending. They’re too complex for their own good and invariably any train fault is usually an electrical glitch of some kind. I dislike driving them compared with other units, unfortunately it’s the unit I spend most of my time on now. They’re also rubbish to instruct on-if you sit down in the second man seat your view is obstructed, and standing all the way to Brighton is annoying!

I’m in the minority amongst drivers in quite liking 387’s. They’re fast, brake well and I can generally deal with any glitches they throw, unlike a 700.

All of the above is my own opinion of course! Some drivers love 700’s. I’m also a traditionalist who likes older, analogue stuff, which is probably partially where my distrust of them comes from.

Edited by itcaptainslow on Sunday 17th February 19:35

Edited by itcaptainslow on Sunday 17th February 19:36

[Nik da Greek]

If you don't like 700s now, count yourself lucky you GN blokes got them after we'd already been through the de-bugging period. They were downright wretched then

Needless to say, some parts have never been properly de-bugged and now we're running into a period of wear-and-tear failures. Somehow I can't see them having the life-span of 313s or 319s that were envisaged to be a ten year stopgap and are still trundling around forty years later As as for ATO.... hahahaha

[Europa1]

Nik da Greek said:

If you don't like 700s now, count yourself lucky you GN blokes got them after we'd already been through the de-bugging period. They were downright wretched then

Needless to say, some parts have never been properly de-bugged and now we're running into a period of wear-and-tear failures. Somehow I can't see them having the life-span of 313s or 319s that were envisaged to be a ten year stopgap and are still trundling around forty years later As as for ATO.... hahahaha

If it's any consolation, as a passenger I also hate the 700s. More uncomfortable seats, fewer tables and charging points, yet the train companies tell us this is progress...Oh, and if there is someone/a group being noisy, the whole train gets to hear thanks to the lack of doors between carriages.