Shortage of classics made in the 30's

[carboy2017]

While going through classic car ads and shows I can see that there is a dearth of Brirish cars made in the 1930's and 1940's ,unlike the ones made in the 1920's and after 1950

I can understand the war year of 39-45 there may have been near zero production perhaps?,but 1930's cars disappearing is a mystery (ok not extinct but very few of them around)

[aeropilot]

carboy2017 said:

I can understand the war year of 39-45 there may have been near zero production perhaps?,but 1930's cars disappearing is a mystery (ok not extinct but very few of them around)

Yep, civilian vehicle production ended after the war started (other than some small volume of essential for the war effort civilian vehicles) and with petrol rationing for everyone else (in some cases that meant you didn't get any) there were very few civilian, non-essential to the war effort cars on the road between 1940-45. As such many cars in civilian ownership got commandeered by Govt., for war effort or in many cases recycled for the materials.

Civilian production was quite slow to re-start after the war in 1946, as there was simply not much demand (petrol still rationed etc) and there was hardly an economy boom in the UK in the immediate post war austerity years, hence why not much late 40's production and thus proportionally less left.

[alfaspecial]

WW2 saw most private motoring 'banned' (lack of fuel). Cars taken 'off the road' would have rusted away, assuming of course they weren't requisitioned / melted down for the war effort.


I wonder if this may have been a part of the reason:
Before WW2 private cars were 'only' for the rich (other than professional drivers). Consequently not many ordinary mortals learnt to drive. One of the social effects of WW2 was that many people learnt to drive for the forces / ambulances etc. And so, after WW2 there was a large influx of returning servicemen etc who had been taught to drive and wanted cars. It would have been this generation who drove (secondhand) pre-war cars. BUT more drivers than cars available would have resulted in a rapid decline of 30's cars - replaced by new ones in the 'never-had-it-so-good-late-50's'


I suppose WW2 technology had moved things on so rapidly by the 50's that a 20 year old car would seem almost agricultural by comparison.
Interestingly the 2008-10(?) scrappage scheme removed many 80's/90's vehicles from the road - so I suspect in 30-40 years time we'll be wondering what happened to 80's/90's vehicles?


Possibly the move to -ve earth rather than +ve earth might have increased rust on cars. Nowadays, of course, rust protection is so much better - although of course 'modern' cars are taken off the road due to being uneconomical to repair......

Edited by alfaspecial on Thursday 21st February 16:57

[//j17]

You're forgetting the great depression wiping out the fortunes of many of the people who could actually afford to buy a new car in the 1930s.

[Allan L]

alfaspecial said:

I suppose WW2 technology had moved things on so rapidly by the 50's that a 20 year old car would seem almost agricultural by comparison.

Automotive technology did not move much during the war and the majority of UK cars produced in the late 1940s were pre-war designs. Also a lot of actual pre-war cars were on the roads in the 1950s as they were cheap but useable. e.g. my first car in 1957 was a 1930 MG and others on the same course had cars of similar age.

[alfaspecial]

Allan L said:

alfaspecial said:

I suppose WW2 technology had moved things on so rapidly by the 50's that a 20 year old car would seem almost agricultural by comparison.

Automotive technology did not move much during the war and the majority of UK cars produced in the late 1940s were pre-war designs. Also a lot of actual pre-war cars were on the roads in the 1950s as they were cheap but useable. e.g. my first car in 1957 was a 1930 MG and others on the same course had cars of similar age.

Maybe.
But compare a 1928 Morris Minor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_Minor_(1928)



With a 1948 Morris Minor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_Minor



And then a 1959 Morris Mini Minor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini

[Dogwatch]

Apparently lines of old cars were placed across open fields as anti-invasion measures to deter gliders etc. (Not much good against paratroopers!). Obviously their remains would have gone for scrap once they were no longer needed.

There is a degree of correspondence between the market position of a car and the speed with which updated models were introduced post-war, I.e low volume manufacturers were pushing out essentially pre-war models long after volume manufacturers had introduced new models (if not new engines, Standard Triumph I'm looking at you).

A 25-30 y.o Rolls could be bought for peanuts in the late 50's and maybe turned into a pick-up or van. A master at school had two!

[lowdrag]

After the war there was a great demand for cars but not much production. Dealers registered the cars as demonstrators and then sold them way above the list price to eager customers. I know - my Dad was a Ford main dealer. Our Zephyrs lasted a month or so in Dad's hands before moving on.

[john2443]

alfaspecial said:

One of the social effects of WW2 was that many people learnt to drive for the forces / ambulances etc.

And for a while after the war you didn't need to take a driving test, just send off a few bob and get your licence!

[aeropilot]

john2443 said:

alfaspecial said:

One of the social effects of WW2 was that many people learnt to drive for the forces / ambulances etc.

And for a while after the war you didn't need to take a driving test, just send off a few bob and get your licence!

Yep, my old man never took a driving test for his licence. Was taught to drive on one of these by the Army while stationed in Egypt.



I even have a picture of him taken in 1946/7 with his Egyptian, army driving instructor.

[Allan L]

john2443 said:

alfaspecial said:

One of the social effects of WW2 was that many people learnt to drive for the forces / ambulances etc.

And for a while after the war you didn't need to take a driving test, just send off a few bob and get your licence!

If you're right, it would only be for those who'd been drivers in the forces. Driving tests were introduced in 1935 but everyone whose first licence was issued before that could carry on holding a full licence (whether they drove anything or not!).

As for those Morris Minors, a few years later the 1928 o.h.c. Minor had been given a side-valve engine, which was directly developed into the side-valve engine in the pre- and post-war Morris 8 Series E and that engine was used in the first series of post-war Minors.

Edited by Allan L on Friday 22 February 09:16

[john2443]

Allan L said:

If you're right, it would only be for those who'd been drivers in the forces. Driving tests were introduced in 1935 but everyone whose first licence was issued before that could carry on holding a full licence (whether they drove anything or not!).

I am right I don't know the exact requirements, maybe only if you learnt in the forces, but probably no one would have learned anywhere else. As you say tests started in 1935 but then were suspended during the war.

I can't ask my dad the details because he died years ago, he was 17 in 1942 so didn't learn in civvy street but he told me that post war he filled a form in, ticked Lorries, Motorbikes and Cars and got a licence for all of them.

[tapkaJohnD]

Driving, post WW2
A schoolfriend of mine had a photo on the wall in his family home, of a 1 1/2 litre Bentley. It had been his father's, kept in store all through the war, but post war petrol rationing, marriage and the advent of a family, had forced the poor man to swap it , for a Ford Popular.

Oh, the ignominy!
JOhn

[aeropilot]

john2443 said:

I can't ask my dad the details because he died years ago, he was 17 in 1942 so didn't learn in civvy street but he told me that post war he filled a form in, ticked Lorries, Motorbikes and Cars and got a licence for all of them.

Yep, exactly same as my Dad did after he left the army in 1948, filled form in, ticked lorries, motorbikes and cars and got the licence for all of them (even though the army had only actually taught him how to drive a lorry and a Jeep (which was close enough to a car in his view )

[john2443]

aeropilot said:

Yep, exactly same as my Dad did after he left the army in 1948, filled form in, ticked lorries, motorbikes and cars and got the licence for all of them (even though the army had only actually taught him how to drive a lorry and a Jeep (which was close enough to a car in his view )

I'm not sure if my Dad was actually taught, but no one was going to stop someone in uniform driving a military vehicle, particularly in the east - I remember he said in Singapore they used to 'borrow' the stores Jeep....and were able to confirm the rumour that it was possible to drive one up a flight of steps!

[eccles]

carboy2017 said:

While going through classic car ads and shows I can see that there is a dearth of Brirish cars made in the 1930's and 1940's ,unlike the ones made in the 1920's and after 1950

I can understand the war year of 39-45 there may have been near zero production perhaps?,but 1930's cars disappearing is a mystery (ok not extinct but very few of them around)

I think there are plenty out there, just not for sale, and not many are taken to your average 'classic' car show these days. If you go to any VSCC meet, you'll see almost exclusively pre war cars, many of them from the '30's.
Very few youngsters fancy driving a pre war car on busy modern roads, so most owners you see are generally north of 60.
We are lucky in this part of the world to have a little gathering every year at a local pub that has a high percentage of pre war cars, and the visitors car park attracts many nice classics and modern exotica. This seems to be very unusual these days, most shows seem to have only the odd one or two pre war cars.

[davepen]

//j17 said:

You're forgetting the great depression wiping out the fortunes of many of the people who could actually afford to buy a new car in the 1930s.

… and in the process some firms. (Bentley, Sunbeam, etc)

Some other factors, or what is a classic?

In the late 40's steel and new cars were rationed (export or die). Some models were revamped late 30's models, new models, XK120, MkVI could be seen as 50's cars, but they do exist. We sold Dad's 1949 Bentley last year. He also had a 2litre AC saloon at one point.

In the 1950's the VSCC accepted some 1930's cars, the infamous PVT list. The new pressed steel bodies and the move back to Side Valve (SV) engines was seen as a retrograde steep. (The 1928 Cammy minor shown above, with its OHV Wolseley engine was replaced by a SV Minor in about 1932.) Sunbeam joined Humber and Hillman in the Rootes Group. The committee disliked MG's, but ran Traction Avants, so they were in! Some cars were on the list and the heavy bodies removed to make racing VSCC specials, others not on the list were seen as less desirable; "Grey Porridge".

However these simple 1930 cars were used as first transport during the 1950s, we meet many people on seeing our A7 (Chummy) saying their first car was a A7 (1930's Ruby). These cars were run on shoe string and basically into the ground. The Ten Year Test (MOT) introduced in 1960 killed off many pre war cars. Some of the pictures in Automobile (Kerb Side Encounters) shows the state even of sports cars.

Dad used to mention the Sword Collection sale in 1962 as the point when Vintage cars as classics became more main stream. The booms in the early 1970 and again in 1980s meant some cars were now worth restoring. Other less so.

Everyone imagines a summer day out in an open top car. After about 1928 most models were closed (fabric saloons), during the 1930s, the standard steel saloon became more common, but more costly to restore and less desirable. Just look at the relative prices of WO Bentley, 20hp Rolls or Speed 20 Alvis with open or closed body work. Another factor is "the Dad had one of those", or it was the car to buy when aged 18 means that the generations have moved on from even the 1950s cars. Finally the so called Grey Porridge is slow by modern standard. To mis-quote the racing slogan, "how fast can you afford to go"; do you want to go far that slowly? So they are cheap, but then could cost more to restore than they are worth.

Some final contrary points, if one looks a Prewarcars.com there are more 1930's Alvis than Vintage ones for sale, even if one considers (as per the register) the 12/50TJ and 12/60 as Vintage. The local (Dorset) A7 club is mainly 1930 Ruby and box saloons, even if at an LC&ES event they are by definition Pre 1931. So they are out there, but may be not at the local show.

[davepen]

Just to add that my BiL and family has had great fun in their 1934 Speed 20 Alvis VdP Tourer.

This has included racing at Oulton, Silverstone, Spa and Le Mans. The car has been in the family for 56 years.

https://www.ultimatecarpage.com/gallery/Alvis-Spee...

[Perseverant]

Where we used to live had a surprising number of 20s and 30s cars - almost all "ordinary" vehicles. I'd love to have a go in one- but it would have to fit me! I chatted to various owners and sat in Austins and Morrises and I doubt that I could physically drive them. I'm just under six feet, so not gigantic, but squeezing over handbrakes and gear levers to perch on tiny seats, then peering through a letterbox screen never felt comfortable or practical. Oddly enough though, a Riley Monaco whilst similarly diminutive did feel a possibility with its little bucket seats as long as the passenger wasn't too big. The rather hazy point I'm trying to make is that there are cars around, but many of them aren't practical any more.