Notice of Intended Prosecution - How to Question?

[anonymous-user]

So I have received a NIP from a police camera van for doing 41 in a 30 limit.

The problem is that I think the camera could well be wrong as I looked at the speedometer immediately after spotting the camera van and remember doing mid 30's. 41mph seems excessive and is the difference between receiving points and being offered a speed awareness course.

There was also another vehicle not too far ahead of me between my vehicle and the camera van at the time, possibly obscuring park of my vehicle from the camera van. Could this have impacted on an accurate speed reading at all? Should I be concerned about this?

Obviously if the camera is accurate and the measurement has been taken correctly then it's a fair cop and I will obviously pay up, but how for my own peace of mind should I go about checking/challenging this and raising these concerns with the police?

[eybic]

I think your only option to question would be to go to court, I guess you would need clarification of it's calibration but this sort of thing can only be done in court afaik.

[Stoofa]

You're at the point where no evidence needs to be supplied - the offer is to stop anyone having to go through the process of sorting evidence, starting court proceedings etc.
People have had varying mileage with "Please can I have a picture to aid with driver identification". This quite often gets you a picture, however does not stop or put on hold the 28 days you have to provide drivers details.
Also be aware that the picture supplied is not always the "money shot" - so it is to aid with driver identification, the actual picture showing you going 41 in a 30 may not be supplied.

By the time you've spotted the camera you've already had speed taken. A lot of people say "I looked down the second I saw the speed camera....." - but you were almost certainly seen by the camera a number of seconds earlier.

You'll get nowhere the calibration route at this early stage, that'll be one for court and rarely a route that works.

[agtlaw]

Andy20vt said:

So I have received a NIP from a police camera van for doing 41 in a 30 limit.

The problem is that I think the camera could well be wrong as I looked at the speedometer immediately after spotting the camera van and remember doing mid 30's. 41mph seems excessive and is the difference between receiving points and being offered a speed awareness course.

There was also another vehicle not too far ahead of me between my vehicle and the camera van at the time, possibly obscuring park of my vehicle from the camera van. Could this have impacted on an accurate speed reading at all? Should I be concerned about this?

Obviously if the camera is accurate and the measurement has been taken correctly then it's a fair cop and I will obviously pay up, but how for my own peace of mind should I go about checking/challenging this and raising these concerns with the police?

Get the stills from the video. If you think you were doing mid-30s but the laser speedmeter has you at 41 mph then it’s extremely likely you were doing 41.

41/30 is a speed awareness course. Not sure why you would think otherwise?

[anonymous-user]

agtlaw said:

T41/30 is a speed awareness course. Not sure why you would think otherwise?

Ah okay, yes just checked and assumed it would have been well above the threshold. That's good then. Camera was parked in a sneaky spot, lined up with other cars in a car park at the edge of a village, on a road that to all intensive purposes is perfectly safe to travel between 40-60mph on, but for some strange reason the 30mph starts about 1/2 mile outside the village . Hence most people travel between 40-60 on this stretch, completely without incident, slowing down to 15-20 mph to go through the narrow village. Guess that's why the van was there then!

[Antony Moxey]

Andy20vt said:

Ah okay, yes just checked and assumed it would have been well above the threshold. That's good then. Camera was parked in a sneaky spot, lined up with other cars in a car park at the edge of a village, on a road that to all intensive purposes is perfectly safe to travel between 40-60mph on, but for some strange reason the 30mph starts about 1/2 mile outside the village . Hence most people travel between 40-60 on this stretch, completely without incident, slowing down to 15-20 mph to go through the narrow village. Guess that's why the van was there then!

Is the road as perfectly safe for all casual purposes too?

[blueg33]

I assume with a couple of time stamped stills and a visit to the location with a tape measure, you could work out the speed quite easily?

[silverfoxcc]

When you saw the scamera van and checked your speed, it is quite possible that he had got you at 41 mph 300yds further back. They really are sneaky buggers, get a good lie of sight and watch the money roll in.
Anyway go for the course it is cheaper and no points

It is quite amusing listening to
A) some dumb arse speaker and
B) even more thicker dumbarse drivers, who, you wonder, hwo they got their licence

Oh and dont correct the speakers, they dont like it, snd can throw you off for the 3pts. just nod, give PC answers and get the hell out afterwards

THEN drop a note to the organisers pointing out the crap that has been spouted ( as i did when i got a lot of how many road signs are compulsory!!!)

[anonymous-user]

Thanks for the help everyone, seems a shame you have to go to court to challenge some pretty basic concerns one might have. Guilty until proven innocent it would seem in these cases!

Anyway fingers crossed for the course - sounds like fun

[longblackcoat]

silverfoxcc said:

When you saw the scamera van and checked your speed, it is quite possible that he had got you at 41 mph 300yds further back. They really are sneaky buggers, get a good lie of sight and watch the money roll in.
Anyway go for the course it is cheaper and no points

It is quite amusing listening to
A) some dumb arse speaker and
B) even more thicker dumbarse drivers, who, you wonder, hwo they got their licence

Oh and dont correct the speakers, they dont like it, snd can throw you off for the 3pts. just nod, give PC answers and get the hell out afterwards

THEN drop a note to the organisers pointing out the crap that has been spouted ( as i did when i got a lot of how many road signs are compulsory!!!)

Better yet, go in with a positive attitude, prepared to learn; we all forget things. I’d agree though that most of the people on the course are as dumb as a house brick, but then I was there with them so I’m not sure I could have claimed to be a whole lot better

[anonymous-user]

Go with a positive attitude and you may learn something. Or be the sneering know it all Road God at the back, or the whiny “why don't you catch some burglars” bore. Mr Road God despises the other drivers in the room, but, hey, Road God got caught, same as all the others.

[anonymous-user]

Posted before I saw the same message immediately above.

[monthefish]

Andy20vt said:

Thanks for the help everyone, seems a shame you have to go to court to challenge some pretty basic concerns one might have. Guilty until proven innocent it would seem in these cases!

Not at all.

If you are as innocent as you believe, you have the full opportunity to prove it.
The truth of the matter, is that you were speeding by your own admission.

[Cat]

blueg33 said:

I assume with a couple of time stamped stills and a visit to the location with a tape measure, you could work out the speed quite easily?

You could work out the average speed between the 2 points. It doesn't mean speed wasn't higher at some point in between. Also the point where the speed was measured may not have been between the 2 stills used for the measurement.

Cat

[vonhosen]

Andy20vt said:

Thanks for the help everyone, seems a shame you have to go to court to challenge some pretty basic concerns one might have. Guilty until proven innocent it would seem in these cases!

That's not the case.
The default is you are innocent until proven guilty. The default is that where the Crown allege you have committed an offence it's their prerogative to bring you before a court.

They simply have a short cut where both you & they are in agreement that saves time & expense on both sides.

You haven't been denied anything if you aren't in agreement with them, it just goes to the default position & it's still for them to prove your guilt to a court's satisfaction.

[Sheepshanks]

A cynical person might think it's no co-incidence the ticket says 41MPH.

[blueg33]

Cat said:

blueg33 said:

I assume with a couple of time stamped stills and a visit to the location with a tape measure, you could work out the speed quite easily?

You could work out the average speed between the 2 points. It doesn't mean speed wasn't higher at some point in between. Also the point where the speed was measured may not have been between the 2 stills used for the measurement.

Cat

The points are going to be pretty close together, and many fixed cameras have white lines marked on the road for exactly the purpose of checking.

I guess the Op was caught by something like an LT2020, That device also only gives an average speed reading, but the points are closer together Its also a device thats quite widely reported around the world to get speed readings wrong.

[Rivenink]

Andy20vt said:

Thanks for the help everyone, seems a shame you have to go to court to challenge some pretty basic concerns one might have. Guilty until proven innocent it would seem in these cases!

Anyway fingers crossed for the course - sounds like fun

Except you're not guilty until proven innocent.

They send you you a Notice of Intent to Prosecute, and offer you the option of pleading guilty at the earliest stage, receiving a prescribed punishment, and everyone getting on with their lives.

If you believe you are innocent, you can opt to take it to court, where the presumption will be that you are innocent, and the prosecution must offer evidence of your guilt beyond reasonable doubt. You contention here is that the speed camera might have been badly calibrated for the use, and therefore miscalculated your speed.

I think you should be very wary about proceeding on the basis of "I was speeding m'lord, but less than the police say I was".

[covboy]

blueg33 said:

The points are going to be pretty close together, and many fixed cameras have white lines marked on the road for exactly the purpose of checking.

I guess the Op was caught by something like an LT2020, That device also only gives an average speed reading, but the points are closer together Its also a device thats quite widely reported around the world to get speed readings wrong.

OP mentions Camera Van. I thought the LT2020 was for distance measuring ?

[blueg33]

covboy said:

blueg33 said:

The points are going to be pretty close together, and many fixed cameras have white lines marked on the road for exactly the purpose of checking.

I guess the Op was caught by something like an LTI2020, That device also only gives an average speed reading, but the points are closer together Its also a device thats quite widely reported around the world to get speed readings wrong.

OP mentions Camera Van. I thought the LT2020 was for distance measuring ?

I did say something like an LTI2020.

A few years ago I got an NIP. It was an LTI2020 in a van. I think thats how most of them are deployed in the UK