Clean Air Zones
Discussion
Seems quite a few local authorities are pushing forward with this. Manchester combined authority (or whatever they call it these days) looking at 2021.
Initial plan is that LGVs and busses post 2015 will be exempt but everything else will be looking at £100-£125 per day.
Taxis roughly £10-£15 per day.
As a small fleet operator with a licence for 8 vehicles if it comes in we will have no option other than to pay it as upgrading 8 vehicles will probably cost us around £500,000. We would never secure finance for that, even if we could we could not service the debt and we would go bankrupt. A quick calculation means each customer will need to pay around £50-£70 extra. Madness. Total madness.
If we cant make it pay then a business which has been operating since the mid 1950s will close its doors and that will be that.
Its ok though, the local bus company will get a grant to buy new busses...
I can see some pretty serious protests on the horizon if they push this through. Anyone remember the fuel shortages in the late 1990s?
Initial plan is that LGVs and busses post 2015 will be exempt but everything else will be looking at £100-£125 per day.
Taxis roughly £10-£15 per day.
As a small fleet operator with a licence for 8 vehicles if it comes in we will have no option other than to pay it as upgrading 8 vehicles will probably cost us around £500,000. We would never secure finance for that, even if we could we could not service the debt and we would go bankrupt. A quick calculation means each customer will need to pay around £50-£70 extra. Madness. Total madness.
If we cant make it pay then a business which has been operating since the mid 1950s will close its doors and that will be that.
Its ok though, the local bus company will get a grant to buy new busses...
I can see some pretty serious protests on the horizon if they push this through. Anyone remember the fuel shortages in the late 1990s?
There is a massive thread about the London version, "ULEZ", here
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
The problem is that a lot of people who don't drive and don't listen to the facts (such as there being more harmful airborne particulates on the London tube than standing by the roadside, or that gas appliances or wood burning stoves generate more pollution than engines do) are in favour. In addition, something else to bill motorists for is a godsend for cash-hungry councils ...
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
The problem is that a lot of people who don't drive and don't listen to the facts (such as there being more harmful airborne particulates on the London tube than standing by the roadside, or that gas appliances or wood burning stoves generate more pollution than engines do) are in favour. In addition, something else to bill motorists for is a godsend for cash-hungry councils ...
kev1974 said:
There is a massive thread about the London version, "ULEZ", here
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
The problem is that a lot of people who don't drive and don't listen to the facts (such as there being more harmful airborne particulates on the London tube than standing by the roadside, or that gas appliances or wood burning stoves generate more pollution than engines do) are in favour. In addition, something else to bill motorists for is a godsend for cash-hungry councils ...
People forget about secondary emissions that blow in from the continent. You could have completely EV’d London and still get crap air.https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
The problem is that a lot of people who don't drive and don't listen to the facts (such as there being more harmful airborne particulates on the London tube than standing by the roadside, or that gas appliances or wood burning stoves generate more pollution than engines do) are in favour. In addition, something else to bill motorists for is a godsend for cash-hungry councils ...
kev1974 said:
The problem is that a lot of people who don't drive and don't listen to the facts (such as there being more harmful airborne particulates on the London tube than standing by the roadside, or that gas appliances or wood burning stoves generate more pollution than engines do) are in favour.
They don't realise they are the ones who are going to pay the charge!Too many old polluting diesels are running around in cities in the UK.
In Germany cars with less then Euro 4 diesel engines are simply banned from going into cities and you do notice a significant improvement in air quality compared to UK cities.
Additionally wood burners are required to have particulate filters nowadays which I think should be enforced in UK cities.
Finally we all need to feel a bit of pain therefore buses and trucks must have more stringent control. Whoever thought diesel was a good idea for a city bus needs shooting. Stop start driving with diesel is exactly what you don't want for PM control.
Curiously I was in Wiesbaden Sunday and they have a permanent display showing the CO2 level at that position. Unfortunately, CO2 does not cause illness and is the completely wrong thing to be measuring for air quality! It's all about PM and NOx, when will Europe wake up!!??
In Germany cars with less then Euro 4 diesel engines are simply banned from going into cities and you do notice a significant improvement in air quality compared to UK cities.
Additionally wood burners are required to have particulate filters nowadays which I think should be enforced in UK cities.
Finally we all need to feel a bit of pain therefore buses and trucks must have more stringent control. Whoever thought diesel was a good idea for a city bus needs shooting. Stop start driving with diesel is exactly what you don't want for PM control.
Curiously I was in Wiesbaden Sunday and they have a permanent display showing the CO2 level at that position. Unfortunately, CO2 does not cause illness and is the completely wrong thing to be measuring for air quality! It's all about PM and NOx, when will Europe wake up!!??
John145 said:
Finally we all need to feel a bit of pain therefore buses and trucks must have more stringent control. Whoever thought diesel was a good idea for a city bus needs shooting. Stop start driving with diesel is exactly what you don't want for PM control.
It needs to be fair though. We are looking at the situation where we cant afford to replace our trucks. So we will have to pay the charge. Which will need to be passed onto customers. However the larger outfits who have 200 branches and 1000 vehicles can afford brand new vehicles and as such they will be able to undercut us massively and as a result it will be the end of our business as the customer wont pay the extra delivery charge.Meanwhile the local authority will subsidise busses by 70%. If they will subsidise us 70% we could probably just about afford to replace our vehicles.
And just to be clear, we run fairly modern vehicles (for our industry) >06 so adblue just not post 2015.
red_slr said:
It needs to be fair though. We are looking at the situation where we cant afford to replace our trucks. So we will have to pay the charge. Which will need to be passed onto customers. However the larger outfits who have 200 branches and 1000 vehicles can afford brand new vehicles and as such they will be able to undercut us massively and as a result it will be the end of our business as the customer wont pay the extra delivery charge.
Meanwhile the local authority will subsidise busses by 70%. If they will subsidise us 70% we could probably just about afford to replace our vehicles.
And just to be clear, we run fairly modern vehicles (for our industry) >06 so adblue just not post 2015.
Does the legislation consider your new vehicles? I don't think it does.Meanwhile the local authority will subsidise busses by 70%. If they will subsidise us 70% we could probably just about afford to replace our vehicles.
And just to be clear, we run fairly modern vehicles (for our industry) >06 so adblue just not post 2015.
John145 said:
Too many old polluting diesels are running around in cities in the UK.
In Germany cars with less then Euro 4 diesel engines are simply banned from going into cities and you do notice a significant improvement in air quality compared to UK cities.
Additionally wood burners are required to have particulate filters nowadays which I think should be enforced in UK cities.
Finally we all need to feel a bit of pain therefore buses and trucks must have more stringent control. Whoever thought diesel was a good idea for a city bus needs shooting. Stop start driving with diesel is exactly what you don't want for PM control.
Curiously I was in Wiesbaden Sunday and they have a permanent display showing the CO2 level at that position. Unfortunately, CO2 does not cause illness and is the completely wrong thing to be measuring for air quality! It's all about PM and NOx, when will Europe wake up!!??
On a Sunday eh? Therefore all emission levels would have been down because the shops are shut. Over here we want full on 7 days a week congestion.In Germany cars with less then Euro 4 diesel engines are simply banned from going into cities and you do notice a significant improvement in air quality compared to UK cities.
Additionally wood burners are required to have particulate filters nowadays which I think should be enforced in UK cities.
Finally we all need to feel a bit of pain therefore buses and trucks must have more stringent control. Whoever thought diesel was a good idea for a city bus needs shooting. Stop start driving with diesel is exactly what you don't want for PM control.
Curiously I was in Wiesbaden Sunday and they have a permanent display showing the CO2 level at that position. Unfortunately, CO2 does not cause illness and is the completely wrong thing to be measuring for air quality! It's all about PM and NOx, when will Europe wake up!!??
If the emissions are making us ill though, as jetnoise shows, back in the 1980s we must simply have been dead. And I wonder if the good citizens of Wiesbaden live as long as many of the citizens of central London, because some of them live a very long time indeed.
heebeegeetee said:
On a Sunday eh? Therefore all emission levels would have been down because the shops are shut. Over here we want full on 7 days a week congestion.
If the emissions are making us ill though, as jetnoise shows, back in the 1980s we must simply have been dead. And I wonder if the good citizens of Wiesbaden live as long as many of the citizens of central London, because some of them live a very long time indeed.
So basically you are saying emissions are fine and we don't need improvement?If the emissions are making us ill though, as jetnoise shows, back in the 1980s we must simply have been dead. And I wonder if the good citizens of Wiesbaden live as long as many of the citizens of central London, because some of them live a very long time indeed.
Well I disagree. Thankfully most other people in relevant places do as well.
Particulate matter and NOx kills. I know many people survived. But many people were killed by it. It's not an argument to sensible argument to take that "it's ok as people survived in the 50's".
If we had the same engines as they had in the 80's running around now with the level of traffic today the air quality would be dire.
Newcastle Upon Tyne looking at this
£12.50/day, this will kill the city centre. The other option is tolls on the 3 bridges over the Tyne, all that will do is take traffic on longer routes to bypass the toll this causing more pollution.
From the BBC local website "diesel cars made pre-September 2015 and petrol cars made before January 2006 would be affected"
Most of the taxi's up here are pre 2015. Our busses are old too.
£12.50/day, this will kill the city centre. The other option is tolls on the 3 bridges over the Tyne, all that will do is take traffic on longer routes to bypass the toll this causing more pollution.
From the BBC local website "diesel cars made pre-September 2015 and petrol cars made before January 2006 would be affected"
Most of the taxi's up here are pre 2015. Our busses are old too.
Just another cash grab in the name of green. If this was a proper green measure then all combustion engines would be banned from city centres.
The biggest polluters are industry and shipping, they haven't addressed that yet have they?
I believe that things need to be done in the name of improving the air quality of our planet, the air we breath and that our food sources use to grow... But taxing people (hitting them with a stick) isn't the best solution, negativity breeds negativity, we need to incentives, like the chap above with his small haulage firm needs to be given a government loan to upgrade part of his fleet to electric or whatever.
The biggest polluters are industry and shipping, they haven't addressed that yet have they?
I believe that things need to be done in the name of improving the air quality of our planet, the air we breath and that our food sources use to grow... But taxing people (hitting them with a stick) isn't the best solution, negativity breeds negativity, we need to incentives, like the chap above with his small haulage firm needs to be given a government loan to upgrade part of his fleet to electric or whatever.
jet_noise said:
Excellent point in terms of how outdoor air quality has improved over time and it's good to see.Yet asthma incidence has increased. Does cleaner outdoor air cause asthma?
That's the simplistic level at which scientifically illiterate politicians operate at (they think it works the other way however; they're wrong).
Then there's indoor air quality. USA EPA and UK BRE research has shown that the air in the aveage UK/USA building is 10x more polluted than outdoor urban air.
Politicians barely lift a finger on this far worse problem, as taxing car owners is easier particularly with repeated lies in support.
Then there's the trans-boundary pollution from southern europe as mentioned earlier in the thread. which will still be present no matter what the London or other zones do.
Earthdweller said:
Turfy said:
Luckily for me you couldn’t pay me to live anywhere on that map 
My point was more the fact that the initial ULEZ area is quite small, but it will expand to affect many millions of people directly and indirectly, in what most thought/expected/assumed (!!) would be ULEZ exempt vehicles (mainly private cars).
As the OP stated, in many specific circumstances, it is creating insurmountable issues.
Edited by Turfy on Tuesday 5th March 11:26
red_slr said:
Seems quite a few local authorities are pushing forward with this. Manchester combined authority (or whatever they call it these days) looking at 2021.
Initial plan is that LGVs and busses post 2015 will be exempt but everything else will be looking at £100-£125 per day.
Taxis roughly £10-£15 per day.
As a small fleet operator with a licence for 8 vehicles if it comes in we will have no option other than to pay it as upgrading 8 vehicles will probably cost us around £500,000. We would never secure finance for that, even if we could we could not service the debt and we would go bankrupt. A quick calculation means each customer will need to pay around £50-£70 extra. Madness. Total madness.
If we cant make it pay then a business which has been operating since the mid 1950s will close its doors and that will be that.
Its ok though, the local bus company will get a grant to buy new busses...
I can see some pretty serious protests on the horizon if they push this through. Anyone remember the fuel shortages in the late 1990s?
Can you help me with the maths? You're saying the vehicles are about £62k each but why do they need to be new? Can't you just use second hand that meet the criteria? Wouldn't they be on some kind of refresh program anyway or are you saying that you only run a fleet that is at least 4 years old and don't change them for at least 8 years and when that happens it's all at the same time?Initial plan is that LGVs and busses post 2015 will be exempt but everything else will be looking at £100-£125 per day.
Taxis roughly £10-£15 per day.
As a small fleet operator with a licence for 8 vehicles if it comes in we will have no option other than to pay it as upgrading 8 vehicles will probably cost us around £500,000. We would never secure finance for that, even if we could we could not service the debt and we would go bankrupt. A quick calculation means each customer will need to pay around £50-£70 extra. Madness. Total madness.
If we cant make it pay then a business which has been operating since the mid 1950s will close its doors and that will be that.
Its ok though, the local bus company will get a grant to buy new busses...
I can see some pretty serious protests on the horizon if they push this through. Anyone remember the fuel shortages in the late 1990s?
It will cover all major cities though. Manchester, Birmingham, Liverpool, Leeds, Newcastle... unless you live outside a major city its going to have an impact. Even if you drive a brand new zero emissions car the second you try and order a skip, some scaffolding or anything like that you are going to pay.
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