Honda engine ... then and now
Discussion
Hi. Sorry if I have missed the answer to this but what has changed from when Honda powered mclaren to them powering red bull?
They seemed to have no reliability or power for the last few years but... based on sample of one race... seem to have leapt forwards.
Is it simply the chassis or have Honda somehow leapt forward after years of poor performance? If so how?
I was expecting more of the same at red bull as we saw with mclaren.
They seemed to have no reliability or power for the last few years but... based on sample of one race... seem to have leapt forwards.
Is it simply the chassis or have Honda somehow leapt forward after years of poor performance? If so how?
I was expecting more of the same at red bull as we saw with mclaren.
McLaren can certainly be held responsible for the performance in the past, but the reliability issues were predominantly Honda.
What changed is continuously grenading engines for 4 years typically results in improvements.
Red Bull will take advantage of this, McLaren took the pain and failed to make the relationship work, Mr Horner's chaps merely need to manage the relationship and reap the rewards.
Thing is, until you drop a Mercedes engine in the back of a RedBull you'll never really find out how much of the performance is locked into the chassis.
What changed is continuously grenading engines for 4 years typically results in improvements.
Red Bull will take advantage of this, McLaren took the pain and failed to make the relationship work, Mr Horner's chaps merely need to manage the relationship and reap the rewards.
Thing is, until you drop a Mercedes engine in the back of a RedBull you'll never really find out how much of the performance is locked into the chassis.
Composite Guru said:
What’s changed is that Red Bull are actually working really hard with Honda to get the engine reliable.
They never had this relationship with Renault and Mclaren were never interested in working with Honda.
That’s two to tango and the right two are now working together.
Merc need to be worried.
I agree with this. Renault had the incentive to design their engine to fit the car they wanted to build, and Red Bull had to make it fit theirs too.They never had this relationship with Renault and Mclaren were never interested in working with Honda.
That’s two to tango and the right two are now working together.
Merc need to be worried.
Honda don't present that problem, they don't have a car, just a customer. No competitive agenda at all. Honda and Red Bull could work from day one on the 2019 project to make sure it all works in harmony when packaged into the car.
The only sad thing is, that Honda did need a few years of real life track experience to get on top of the PU design, and in reality we all know McLaren paid for that time... But that's F1 of course. McLaren were also I think dictatorial about what the engine needed to be, which is just silly - Honda have a legacy of building engines literally decades ahead of the west. the Key with Honda is to understand their philosophy of why things should be a certain way and to design a car around that. Basically, show respect to what will form the heart of your car!
A week ago if I typed the above I would have been shot down as a dreamer. But today is today, and today the Red Bull Honda placed above both Ferrari's. They also ran something like half a season in testing without a failure. Honda are back in F1. Honda are HUGE in F1 now.
Mclaren have looked silly ever since they spent 2 years blaming Honda, then switched to Renault engines and found themselves in the same position as they were, while Toro Rosso were picking up more points using the engine Mclaren had spent 2 years deriding in public.
Also, which was the only car, and only engine, with a total engine failure on Sunday?
Also, which was the only car, and only engine, with a total engine failure on Sunday?
Condi said:
Mclaren have looked silly ever since they spent 2 years blaming Honda, then switched to Renault engines and found themselves in the same position as they were, while Toro Rosso were picking up more points using the engine Mclaren had spent 2 years deriding in public.
Also, which was the only car, and only engine, with a total engine failure on Sunday?
It wasnt even Honda holding them back, the last season with Mercedes was pretty shocking as well.Also, which was the only car, and only engine, with a total engine failure on Sunday?
DanielSan said:
It wasnt even Honda holding them back, the last season with Mercedes was pretty shocking as well.
If it wasn't for Williams, so much negative press would be focused on McLaren,It's the same with both teams though. It doesn't matter what quality of ingredients you push in the front, a turd pops out the back.
The whole Mclaren is at fault thing is a red herring.
Look at it objectively
This is year 5, generally any F1 project takes 5-6 years to come to fruition starting from ground zero.
Honda entering the sport should have paid one or two of the backmarkers like HRT, Lotus etc to help them develop their engine for a few years in line for a return to a top team for a 2-3 year push for the WCC. This has always been the way.
However McLaren ended up without an engine supplier and this process was expedited, the big mistake McLaren made was this.
Honda underestimated what was needed, hence even in winter 2016 they developed engines with a 1 cylinder test model not a full engine on a proper test bed. Mclaren werent close enough to realise, were Honda keeping them at arms length? we can assume yes i would say as their MO has now completely changed and integration and collaboration is now key, not delivering a crate in time to build the car for pre-season and the team going "well, what have we got here chaps".
Honda's development curve looks normal, especially as they have changed concept two or three times ( remember the initial engine was a axial compressor turbo), its just been played out in public rather than at a lower team first, you can see, how/why this occured.
Questions remain about reliability and fuel consumption, one swallow does not make a summer although with the time and resource invested its inevitable they will rise to the top eventually
Look at it objectively
This is year 5, generally any F1 project takes 5-6 years to come to fruition starting from ground zero.
Honda entering the sport should have paid one or two of the backmarkers like HRT, Lotus etc to help them develop their engine for a few years in line for a return to a top team for a 2-3 year push for the WCC. This has always been the way.
However McLaren ended up without an engine supplier and this process was expedited, the big mistake McLaren made was this.
Honda underestimated what was needed, hence even in winter 2016 they developed engines with a 1 cylinder test model not a full engine on a proper test bed. Mclaren werent close enough to realise, were Honda keeping them at arms length? we can assume yes i would say as their MO has now completely changed and integration and collaboration is now key, not delivering a crate in time to build the car for pre-season and the team going "well, what have we got here chaps".
Honda's development curve looks normal, especially as they have changed concept two or three times ( remember the initial engine was a axial compressor turbo), its just been played out in public rather than at a lower team first, you can see, how/why this occured.
Questions remain about reliability and fuel consumption, one swallow does not make a summer although with the time and resource invested its inevitable they will rise to the top eventually
Jasandjules said:
I guess we will see how the season goes but I am starting to wonder if the McL doesn't have some sort of design fault engine wise given Carlos' BBQ
It's an interesting point, Redbull used to be criticised for the way they packaged the Renault engine and the failures they got from the KERS as a result. I can't imagine the ethos has changed too much. Daston said:
Jasandjules said:
I guess we will see how the season goes but I am starting to wonder if the McL doesn't have some sort of design fault engine wise given Carlos' BBQ
It's an interesting point, Redbull used to be criticised for the way they packaged the Renault engine and the failures they got from the KERS as a result. I can't imagine the ethos has changed too much. MikeStroud said:
Hi. Sorry if I have missed the answer to this but what has changed from when Honda powered mclaren to them powering red bull?
In McLaren's second and final year there was a better spec engine in the final third of that season. That spec should have been raced had Ron Dennis given Honda the very least a year of private testing/development but instead Ron reneged on this (desperate for Honda money IMO) and had to go through the humiliation of public testing via Grand Prix's - which was a good thing as it exposed McLaren's arrogance, frailties and weaknesses.Torro Rosso reaped the benefits as well as being patient and giving more respect to how the Japanese work.
The relationship with RBR will be interesting. Bigger tests are yet to come, the demands and expectations will be far greater than at STR. As most of us know, Helmut Marko is hard to please and Horner has lend an extra hand at sticking the knife in.
Composite Guru said:
Apart from Honda change the engine systems to integrate with the tight packaging. This ups the reliability.
Know what the funny thing is? This year RB have had Honda put a lot of the top airbox/intake routing back to how mclaren had it originally as they also thought, like mclaren, that the tighter packaging was worth the engine compromise.
Even though Honda changed it last year in the TR.
Yet we still have people pointing fingers at mclaren wanting the package being 'too tight' being an issue yet cheering the RB for the same...
PhillipM said:
Composite Guru said:
Apart from Honda change the engine systems to integrate with the tight packaging. This ups the reliability.
Know what the funny thing is? This year RB have had Honda put a lot of the top airbox/intake routing back to how mclaren had it originally as they also thought, like mclaren, that the tighter packaging was worth the engine compromise.
Even though Honda changed it last year in the TR.
Yet we still have people pointing fingers at mclaren wanting the package being 'too tight' being an issue yet cheering the RB for the same...
By all accounts, McLaren were more dictatorial in their approach, which didn't go down so well with the Japanese.
Anyway, they say the proof is in the pudding. Early days but so far the pudding is looking pretty tasty for Red Bull. Horner also looks extra smug of late, so I guess he's genuinely happy with the result. Reliability also seems improved which further suggests the packaging works.
DanielSan said:
Condi said:
Mclaren have looked silly ever since they spent 2 years blaming Honda, then switched to Renault engines and found themselves in the same position as they were, while Toro Rosso were picking up more points using the engine Mclaren had spent 2 years deriding in public.
Also, which was the only car, and only engine, with a total engine failure on Sunday?
It wasnt even Honda holding them back, the last season with Mercedes was pretty shocking as well.Also, which was the only car, and only engine, with a total engine failure on Sunday?
EDLT said:
DanielSan said:
Condi said:
Mclaren have looked silly ever since they spent 2 years blaming Honda, then switched to Renault engines and found themselves in the same position as they were, while Toro Rosso were picking up more points using the engine Mclaren had spent 2 years deriding in public.
Also, which was the only car, and only engine, with a total engine failure on Sunday?
It wasnt even Honda holding them back, the last season with Mercedes was pretty shocking as well.Also, which was the only car, and only engine, with a total engine failure on Sunday?
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