GT3 Suspension setup/Handling/LSD .....driving
Discussion
The 996TT has gone and a MK2 GT3 is coming. Question is... how are you supposed to drive the damn thing? I'm pretty confused/excited and "reading up" on how to get the best from the thing.
I've heard all sorts of things about needing to get the suspension geometry re-setup.... and the floaty front end.
What's all this LSD malarky meaning you keep your foot planted when the car is already running wide? me no understand.
Straight line braking or do you brake all the way up to the apex to keep the weight (and therefore grip) all over the front end...
Although a reasonably experienced driver (mostly Ferraris actually), can someone provide some "conventional wisdom" as to what is the safest/fastest way to get the best from the car and whether it needs it's suspension setup. (intention is to use the car at LOT on the road..a LOT).
MB
I've heard all sorts of things about needing to get the suspension geometry re-setup.... and the floaty front end.
What's all this LSD malarky meaning you keep your foot planted when the car is already running wide? me no understand.
Straight line braking or do you brake all the way up to the apex to keep the weight (and therefore grip) all over the front end...
Although a reasonably experienced driver (mostly Ferraris actually), can someone provide some "conventional wisdom" as to what is the safest/fastest way to get the best from the car and whether it needs it's suspension setup. (intention is to use the car at LOT on the road..a LOT).
MB
murcielago_boy said:
The 996TT has gone and a MK2 GT3 is coming. Question is... how are you supposed to drive the damn thing? I'm pretty confused/excited and "reading up" on how to get the best from the thing.
I've heard all sorts of things about needing to get the suspension geometry re-setup.... and the floaty front end.
What's all this LSD malarky meaning you keep your foot planted when the car is already running wide? me no understand.
Straight line braking or do you brake all the way up to the apex to keep the weight (and therefore grip) all over the front end...
Although a reasonably experienced driver (mostly Ferraris actually), can someone provide some "conventional wisdom" as to what is the safest/fastest way to get the best from the car and whether it needs it's suspension setup. (intention is to use the car at LOT on the road..a LOT).
MB
An LSD doesn't mean you keep your foot planted if you are understeering! They tend to increase understeer in fact! It does let you put more power down coming out of a corner though assuming you get it right.
I'm not an expert, especially on 911s so will stop at that point, I just didn't want you to think keeping your foot in would help with understeer. I guess you could unhook the back by planting the throttle, but its going to take a lot of talent.
DanH said:
The 996TT has gone and a MK2 GT3 is coming. Question is... how are you supposed to drive the damn thing? I'm pretty confused/excited and "reading up" on how to get the best from the thing.
I've heard all sorts of things about needing to get the suspension geometry re-setup.... and the floaty front end.
What's all this LSD malarky meaning you keep your foot planted when the car is already running wide? me no understand.
Straight line braking or do you brake all the way up to the apex to keep the weight (and therefore grip) all over the front end...
Although a reasonably experienced driver (mostly Ferraris actually), can someone provide some "conventional wisdom" as to what is the safest/fastest way to get the best from the car and whether it needs it's suspension setup. (intention is to use the car at LOT on the road..a LOT).
MB
An LSD doesn't mean you keep your foot planted if you are understeering! They tend to increase understeer in fact! It does let you put more power down coming out of a corner though assuming you get it right.
I'm not an expert, especially on 911s so will stop at that point, I just didn't want you to think keeping your foot in would help with understeer. I guess you could unhook the back by planting the throttle, but its going to take a lot of talent.
You're exactly right... What's this guy talking about - or have I just misunderstood?
www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/main.jhtml?xml=/motoring/2003/04/11/emfpors12.xml
murcielago_boy said:
DanH said:
murcielago_boy said:
The 996TT has gone and a MK2 GT3 is coming. Question is... how are you supposed to drive the damn thing? I'm pretty confused/excited and "reading up" on how to get the best from the thing.
I've heard all sorts of things about needing to get the suspension geometry re-setup.... and the floaty front end.
What's all this LSD malarky meaning you keep your foot planted when the car is already running wide? me no understand.
Straight line braking or do you brake all the way up to the apex to keep the weight (and therefore grip) all over the front end...
Although a reasonably experienced driver (mostly Ferraris actually), can someone provide some "conventional wisdom" as to what is the safest/fastest way to get the best from the car and whether it needs it's suspension setup. (intention is to use the car at LOT on the road..a LOT).
MB
An LSD doesn't mean you keep your foot planted if you are understeering! They tend to increase understeer in fact! It does let you put more power down coming out of a corner though assuming you get it right.
I'm not an expert, especially on 911s so will stop at that point, I just didn't want you to think keeping your foot in would help with understeer. I guess you could unhook the back by planting the throttle, but its going to take a lot of talent.
You're exactly right... What's this guy talking about - or have I just misunderstood?
<a href="<a href="www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/main.jhtml?xml=/motoring/2003/04/11/emfpors12.xml">">www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/main.jhtml?xml=/motoring/2003/04/11/emfpors12.xml"></a><a href="www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/main.jhtml?xml=/motoring/2003/04/11/emfpors12.xml"><a href="www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/main.jhtml?xml=/motoring/2003/04/11/emfpors12.xml">www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/main.jhtml?xml=/motoring/2003/04/11/emfpors12.xml</a></a></a>
Sounds like journo crapness to me. If you lift going into a corner you are going to get forward weight transfer which will give you more front end bite and possibly unstick the rear. Maybe thats what he means, that he's provoking a drift and then balancing it on the throttle.
Alternatively maybe he's talking about steering on the throttle but he has a funny way of expressing it.
Hard to tell though. If its the telegraph journo who crashed the Noble m400 on a test run, I'd be warey of following his advice
Oh, he also managed to spin it pulling out of his drive before crashing it too! I should just add that when I was saying an LSD can cause understeer, I mean corner exit understeer. He's actually talking about corner entry understeer. I wasn't aware an LSD had an effect on trailing throttle, so maybe there is some mystic relationship I don't know about. I'm under the impression that corner entry understeer is dictated by weight balance, entry speed, and the fundamental balance/setup of the car.
Of course I may be wrong too. So waiting to be corrected
>> Edited by DanH on Thursday 19th May 17:48
He is not that far wrong,you can get a diff to push,the factory used to run up to 75% for turn in on 993 gt2,as they can understeer horribly,but the diff helped this big time.With all the power and rear end grip the problem has always been under steer.
You can dial so much out with chassis etc,but all changes with fuel load and tyre temps etc.Again gt2 were fited with adjsutable roll bars from inside the cabin,which could be adjusted when fuel dropping low etc(this is race cars and not road cars).
You can dial so much out with chassis etc,but all changes with fuel load and tyre temps etc.Again gt2 were fited with adjsutable roll bars from inside the cabin,which could be adjusted when fuel dropping low etc(this is race cars and not road cars).
Get some on track training with an experienced 911 trainer. I've done a fair bit of training, but its all been mid engined so there may be differences. Also whilst I think I understand the physics I haven't got enough wheel time to really back it all up (about 10 track days & 5 driver training days, so loads to learn).
In the end if you get to a certain level, there's a large amount of self analysis involved. You can judge your speed through a corner by checking the revs at an exit point, and you can feel how settled the car is through the corner. So as long as you don't overcook it, you can work out a lot for yourself. Once you are a certain level, falling off the track is pretty inexcusable as you should work up to the limit, not down to it by falling off. The former is a lot cheaper! Similarly with a technical approach to braking points. You pick a conservative one, if its easy you nudge it on a bit and work from there.
Its one of the downsides with a 'safe' track like bedford, you are stuffed with trying to remember 15 braking points and exit rpms! Much more likely to fall off at brands, but less to remember if you approach it correctly.
Getting back to the Telegraph article, talk of understeer/oversteer is largely irrelevant though, unless its qualified with whether they mean 'turn in', 'mid corner' or 'exit' as they can all be difference depending on the car.
If you want a good book on track technique, have a look at 'Going Faster' by Skip Barbour. Its a great reference imho.
>> Edited by DanH on Thursday 19th May 22:38
DanH said:
Get some on track training with an experienced 911 trainer. I've done a fair bit of training, but its all been mid engined so there may be differences. Also whilst I think I understand the physics I haven't got enough wheel time to really back it all up (about 10 track days & 5 driver training days, so loads to learn).
In the end if you get to a certain level, there's a large amount of self analysis involved. You can judge your speed through a corner by checking the revs at an exit point, and you can feel how settled the car is through the corner. So as long as you don't overcook it, you can work out a lot for yourself. Once you are a certain level, falling off the track is pretty inexcusable as you should work up to the limit, not down to it by falling off. The former is a lot cheaper! Similarly with a technical approach to braking points. You pick a conservative one, if its easy you nudge it on a bit and work from there.
Its one of the downsides with a 'safe' track like bedford, you are stuffed with trying to remember 15 braking points and exit rpms! Much more likely to fall off at brands, but less to remember if you approach it correctly.
Getting back to the Telegraph article, talk of understeer/oversteer is largely irrelevant though, unless its qualified with whether they mean 'turn in', 'mid corner' or 'exit' as they can all be difference depending on the car.
If you want a good book on track technique, have a look at 'Going Faster' by Skip Barbour. Its a great reference imho.
>> Edited by DanH on Thursday 19th May 22:38
Thanks mate. I think you've hit the nail on the head - I need more professional instruction with someone who knows how to actually drive this car. For some reason I have so far assumed that the GT3 requires a different approach to any other 911.... I'm still concerned about whether or not the car needs setting up (even if it's to make it more compliant) for extended road use.... I'll suck it and see by the looks of it!
The car will need a setup to make it more compliant and driveable on the road and track. JZM or Parr can do this to your requirements. Every owner I know has had a set up and is amazed at the difference it makes.
The car does handle like any other modern 911, but is very stable once you get the hang of it.
Have fun Sean
The car does handle like any other modern 911, but is very stable once you get the hang of it.
Have fun Sean
murcielago_boy said:
For some reason I have so far assumed that the GT3 requires a different approach to any other 911....
It does, it's a piece of cake to drive quickly compared to any aircooled RS.
You will only find the limits in the GT3 from carrying huge speed into the bends, hence trail ABS braking up to the apex and neutral angle power on out the other side. Not something to practise on the road, so go forth onto the track with a respected instructor as you propose. I would also recommend having wet instruction, since especially with the Michelin tyre option they are very nervous when the road is damp.
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