Pacer's late for museum display
Discussion
Apparently the 313's vintage is to be celebrated 
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/br-blue-re...
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/br-blue-re...
2fast748 said:
Neither of the trains pictured in that article is a Pacer !Krikkit said:
Quite! Bloody awful machines. All Northern will commit to is getting rid sometime this year, bet they won't even manage that.
Don't all the Pacers have to be out of service by the end of the year anyway, due to them not meeting accessibility regs? The NRM have had dibs on the first 142 unit for years so this all seems a bit of a non-story.As awful as they may be (and I speak as someone who has travelled plenty of miles on 142s/143s in the West Country in a near-constant screech of wheel flanges, listening to that pathetic bus engine trying to lug itself up hills and having my ankles fried and my head chilled simultaneously) I have a slight gruding soft spot for the Pacers and certainly see why one should be in the national collection.
They are emblematic of their time, when the 1st-gen DMUs from the 1960s were clapped out and there was no money coming from central government for genuinely new 'proper' unit replacements, especially on provincial suburban and rural lines with (at best) marginal profitability. Unless you want to try and radically rewrite economic and political history, it was never a choice between Pacers and 'proper trains'. It was a choice between Pacers and no trains at all. Given the need for New Trains, Now and the tiny budget, BREL did pretty well to come up with a vaguely-workable lashup of High Speed Freight Vehicle frame, Leyland National body parts and drivetrain and Austin Metro heater controls. The Pacers fulfilled their role, and some roles for which they were never designed or really suited, and did so for far longer than anyone ever intended.
But then I'm the sort of person who can muster similar fondness for the Morris Marina on "a cheap parts-bin stopgap which did far more than it was ever meant to and was actually far better than it had any right to be" grounds, so feel free to tell me I'm an idiot.
2xChevrons said:
Don't all the Pacers have to be out of service by the end of the year anyway, due to them not meeting accessibility regs? The NRM have had dibs on the first 142 unit for years so this all seems a bit of a non-story.
Yes they do, but probably wont be. An extension will get signed off at the last possible moment.For anyone who doesn't know, this is what they look like. Shot taken at Hellifield on 17th July last year:
And a comparison of what that scene looked like in August 1967 is here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/93122458@N08/4330513...
And a comparison of what that scene looked like in August 1967 is here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/93122458@N08/4330513...
2xChevrons said:
Don't all the Pacers have to be out of service by the end of the year anyway, due to them not meeting accessibility regs? The NRM have had dibs on the first 142 unit for years so this all seems a bit of a non-story.
As awful as they may be (and I speak as someone who has travelled plenty of miles on 142s/143s in the West Country in a near-constant screech of wheel flanges, listening to that pathetic bus engine trying to lug itself up hills and having my ankles fried and my head chilled simultaneously) I have a slight gruding soft spot for the Pacers and certainly see why one should be in the national collection.
They are emblematic of their time, when the 1st-gen DMUs from the 1960s were clapped out and there was no money coming from central government for genuinely new 'proper' unit replacements, especially on provincial suburban and rural lines with (at best) marginal profitability. Unless you want to try and radically rewrite economic and political history, it was never a choice between Pacers and 'proper trains'. It was a choice between Pacers and no trains at all. Given the need for New Trains, Now and the tiny budget, BREL did pretty well to come up with a vaguely-workable lashup of High Speed Freight Vehicle frame, Leyland National body parts and drivetrain and Austin Metro heater controls. The Pacers fulfilled their role, and some roles for which they were never designed or really suited, and did so for far longer than anyone ever intended.
But then I'm the sort of person who can muster similar fondness for the Morris Marina on "a cheap parts-bin stopgap which did far more than it was ever meant to and was actually far better than it had any right to be" grounds, so feel free to tell me I'm an idiot.
An intelligent perspective.As awful as they may be (and I speak as someone who has travelled plenty of miles on 142s/143s in the West Country in a near-constant screech of wheel flanges, listening to that pathetic bus engine trying to lug itself up hills and having my ankles fried and my head chilled simultaneously) I have a slight gruding soft spot for the Pacers and certainly see why one should be in the national collection.
They are emblematic of their time, when the 1st-gen DMUs from the 1960s were clapped out and there was no money coming from central government for genuinely new 'proper' unit replacements, especially on provincial suburban and rural lines with (at best) marginal profitability. Unless you want to try and radically rewrite economic and political history, it was never a choice between Pacers and 'proper trains'. It was a choice between Pacers and no trains at all. Given the need for New Trains, Now and the tiny budget, BREL did pretty well to come up with a vaguely-workable lashup of High Speed Freight Vehicle frame, Leyland National body parts and drivetrain and Austin Metro heater controls. The Pacers fulfilled their role, and some roles for which they were never designed or really suited, and did so for far longer than anyone ever intended.
But then I'm the sort of person who can muster similar fondness for the Morris Marina on "a cheap parts-bin stopgap which did far more than it was ever meant to and was actually far better than it had any right to be" grounds, so feel free to tell me I'm an idiot.
Yertis said:
2xChevrons said:
Don't all the Pacers have to be out of service by the end of the year anyway, due to them not meeting accessibility regs? The NRM have had dibs on the first 142 unit for years so this all seems a bit of a non-story.
As awful as they may be (and I speak as someone who has travelled plenty of miles on 142s/143s in the West Country in a near-constant screech of wheel flanges, listening to that pathetic bus engine trying to lug itself up hills and having my ankles fried and my head chilled simultaneously) I have a slight gruding soft spot for the Pacers and certainly see why one should be in the national collection.
They are emblematic of their time, when the 1st-gen DMUs from the 1960s were clapped out and there was no money coming from central government for genuinely new 'proper' unit replacements, especially on provincial suburban and rural lines with (at best) marginal profitability. Unless you want to try and radically rewrite economic and political history, it was never a choice between Pacers and 'proper trains'. It was a choice between Pacers and no trains at all. Given the need for New Trains, Now and the tiny budget, BREL did pretty well to come up with a vaguely-workable lashup of High Speed Freight Vehicle frame, Leyland National body parts and drivetrain and Austin Metro heater controls. The Pacers fulfilled their role, and some roles for which they were never designed or really suited, and did so for far longer than anyone ever intended.
But then I'm the sort of person who can muster similar fondness for the Morris Marina on "a cheap parts-bin stopgap which did far more than it was ever meant to and was actually far better than it had any right to be" grounds, so feel free to tell me I'm an idiot.
An intelligent perspective.As awful as they may be (and I speak as someone who has travelled plenty of miles on 142s/143s in the West Country in a near-constant screech of wheel flanges, listening to that pathetic bus engine trying to lug itself up hills and having my ankles fried and my head chilled simultaneously) I have a slight gruding soft spot for the Pacers and certainly see why one should be in the national collection.
They are emblematic of their time, when the 1st-gen DMUs from the 1960s were clapped out and there was no money coming from central government for genuinely new 'proper' unit replacements, especially on provincial suburban and rural lines with (at best) marginal profitability. Unless you want to try and radically rewrite economic and political history, it was never a choice between Pacers and 'proper trains'. It was a choice between Pacers and no trains at all. Given the need for New Trains, Now and the tiny budget, BREL did pretty well to come up with a vaguely-workable lashup of High Speed Freight Vehicle frame, Leyland National body parts and drivetrain and Austin Metro heater controls. The Pacers fulfilled their role, and some roles for which they were never designed or really suited, and did so for far longer than anyone ever intended.
But then I'm the sort of person who can muster similar fondness for the Morris Marina on "a cheap parts-bin stopgap which did far more than it was ever meant to and was actually far better than it had any right to be" grounds, so feel free to tell me I'm an idiot.
PhilboSE said:
I take a Pacer from time to time from the east coast into Ipswich (50 min journey). They're quite fun in their way, but I'm very glad I don't do it every day! A museum really is the best place for them.
Which company is that with? I didn't think there were any Pacers in East Anglia and that they were only used in the north.rs1952 said:
For anyone who doesn't know, this is what they look like. Shot taken at Hellifield on 17th July last year:
And a comparison of what that scene looked like in August 1967 is here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/93122458@N08/4330513...
The buildings are the same, having been listed many years ago. Sadly, the station had most of its services removed in the 1970s, lost a platform, and is now unmanned.And a comparison of what that scene looked like in August 1967 is here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/93122458@N08/4330513...
It does still have one of the last remaining manual signal boxes, however!
Europa1 said:
PhilboSE said:
I take a Pacer from time to time from the east coast into Ipswich (50 min journey). They're quite fun in their way, but I'm very glad I don't do it every day! A museum really is the best place for them.
Which company is that with? I didn't think there were any Pacers in East Anglia and that they were only used in the north.skwdenyer said:
rs1952 said:
For anyone who doesn't know, this is what they look like. Shot taken at Hellifield on 17th July last year:
And a comparison of what that scene looked like in August 1967 is here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/93122458@N08/4330513...
The buildings are the same, having been listed many years ago. Sadly, the station had most of its services removed in the 1970s, lost a platform, and is now unmanned.And a comparison of what that scene looked like in August 1967 is here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/93122458@N08/4330513...
It does still have one of the last remaining manual signal boxes, however!
As regards the train service, I shall put my nerds hat on...
My 1968/69 LMR timetable that I have up on the shelf next to me shows the following services calling at Hellifield:
From Carlisle 3 (this includes an early morning train starting at Dent so it's really only 2 from Carlisle)
From Morecambe 8
To Carlisle 2
To Morecambe 6
A total of 19 passenger calls per day
in 2019, the totals are:
To Carlisle 8
To Ribblehead 1
To Morecambe/ Lancaster 7
From Carlisle 6
From Ribblehead 1
From Morecambe/ Lancaster 7
A total of 30 passenger calls per day
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/HL...
As someone who drove the 142's from '86 to 2014 on an almost daily bases here is a list of all the mods done over the years , so they weren't even cheap.
Replace the cable brake system
New gearbox
modified heater system
4leaf doors( Leyland National) replaced with more robust system
All this done in the first 5 years, many more have been done but not all these are 142 specific to put right a flawed design. Interesting the 143(Andrew Barclay built)and 144(Met Cam) always looked better screwed together.
I look forward to shaving with the remains of one of these detestible machines!
Replace the cable brake system
New gearbox
modified heater system
4leaf doors( Leyland National) replaced with more robust system
All this done in the first 5 years, many more have been done but not all these are 142 specific to put right a flawed design. Interesting the 143(Andrew Barclay built)and 144(Met Cam) always looked better screwed together.
I look forward to shaving with the remains of one of these detestible machines!
Europa1 said:
PhilboSE said:
I take a Pacer from time to time from the east coast into Ipswich (50 min journey). They're quite fun in their way, but I'm very glad I don't do it every day! A museum really is the best place for them.
Which company is that with? I didn't think there were any Pacers in East Anglia and that they were only used in the north.rs1952 said:
The station was restored in 1994 - a plaque on the wall says so and is mentioned in my caption on Flickr linked to above, but here it is anyway:
As regards the train service, I shall put my nerds hat on...
My 1968/69 LMR timetable that I have up on the shelf next to me shows the following services calling at Hellifield:
Be interesting to see the amount of freight booked over the line in the same era, my hunch would be that the 11 missing passenger slots would be more then made up with slow freights avoiding the WCML. The other irony is that the dmu's that the pacers were built to replace lasted another 10 years, I did the DMU course in early '87 , on day 1 the instructor said "we'll have an easy week, these will gone next year", I learn't a lot about rose growing that week and the DMU's(Met Cam 101's) lasted another 10 years.
From Carlisle 3 (this includes an early morning train starting at Dent so it's really only 2 from Carlisle)
From Morecambe 8
To Carlisle 2
To Morecambe 6
A total of 19 passenger calls per day
in 2019, the totals are:
To Carlisle 8
To Ribblehead 1
To Morecambe/ Lancaster 7
From Carlisle 6
From Ribblehead 1
From Morecambe/ Lancaster 7
A total of 30 passenger calls per day
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/HL...
As regards the train service, I shall put my nerds hat on...
My 1968/69 LMR timetable that I have up on the shelf next to me shows the following services calling at Hellifield:
Be interesting to see the amount of freight booked over the line in the same era, my hunch would be that the 11 missing passenger slots would be more then made up with slow freights avoiding the WCML. The other irony is that the dmu's that the pacers were built to replace lasted another 10 years, I did the DMU course in early '87 , on day 1 the instructor said "we'll have an easy week, these will gone next year", I learn't a lot about rose growing that week and the DMU's(Met Cam 101's) lasted another 10 years.
From Carlisle 3 (this includes an early morning train starting at Dent so it's really only 2 from Carlisle)
From Morecambe 8
To Carlisle 2
To Morecambe 6
A total of 19 passenger calls per day
in 2019, the totals are:
To Carlisle 8
To Ribblehead 1
To Morecambe/ Lancaster 7
From Carlisle 6
From Ribblehead 1
From Morecambe/ Lancaster 7
A total of 30 passenger calls per day
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/HL...
2xChevrons said:
I have a slight gruding soft spot for the Pacers and certainly see why one should be in the national collection.
...The Pacers fulfilled their role, and some roles for which they were never designed or really suited, and did so for far longer than anyone ever intended.
Totally agreed there, they fulfilled an important role, and as a piece of super cheap engineering they're certainly right up there with the best of them....The Pacers fulfilled their role, and some roles for which they were never designed or really suited, and did so for far longer than anyone ever intended.
What's a disgrace is that they weren't retired by the millennium.
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