Diesel at BMW is the king?
Discussion
I really don't know why anyone buys a performance petrol BMW any more. My 335xd is getting a bit old now at five years this year. I've tried an M3, M4, and M5 and they all seem to suffer from the same thing. The ZF8 doesn't suit a petrol car anywhere as well as it does the diesel.
My wife has a brand new loaner 440i for the last few weeks. In sport+ mode nothing happens until you are up about 5K and then the rev counter moves much faster than the zf8 can react. Gear changes are imprecise and strangely better on the downshift where they are fast and grudgingly slow on the upshift to the point when you flip the lever about a second prior to it changing gear which is terrible if you are trying to keep the rev counter bubbling. Half the time you have no idea whether you have changed gear or the car has done it to stop over rev.
Of course you can just go auto, or manual and let it protect you from over revving which seems much better to the point where you think why bother. Its not encouraging you to change gear is effectively saying we will make this as rubbish for you as possible until you simply use auto.
The 335d however has a wide band torque band and in that you do have enough time to use the box manually. Its not as much fun as driving a petrol engine car with a singing rev range but the zf8 at least makes some sense in it.The M3 and 4 were a little better but I convinced myself they were my next car.
Then I got my TVR out of the garage after a winter sitting there waiting for dry roads and suddenly realised just how crappy modern semi auto gearboxes are.
Is the ZF BMWs way for preparing us for the numbed experience that is electric cars?
My wife has a brand new loaner 440i for the last few weeks. In sport+ mode nothing happens until you are up about 5K and then the rev counter moves much faster than the zf8 can react. Gear changes are imprecise and strangely better on the downshift where they are fast and grudgingly slow on the upshift to the point when you flip the lever about a second prior to it changing gear which is terrible if you are trying to keep the rev counter bubbling. Half the time you have no idea whether you have changed gear or the car has done it to stop over rev.
Of course you can just go auto, or manual and let it protect you from over revving which seems much better to the point where you think why bother. Its not encouraging you to change gear is effectively saying we will make this as rubbish for you as possible until you simply use auto.
The 335d however has a wide band torque band and in that you do have enough time to use the box manually. Its not as much fun as driving a petrol engine car with a singing rev range but the zf8 at least makes some sense in it.The M3 and 4 were a little better but I convinced myself they were my next car.
Then I got my TVR out of the garage after a winter sitting there waiting for dry roads and suddenly realised just how crappy modern semi auto gearboxes are.
Is the ZF BMWs way for preparing us for the numbed experience that is electric cars?
No mention of the 335 xd’s squiffy, wallowy SE suspension though...
Personally I think that BMW still make some good petrol engines. The B58 in ‘40 badged cars feels pretty flexible to me with low down torque yet is happy to rev. Doesn’t sound like a Massey Ferguson under load either
The ZF8 works well with both petrol and diesel engines in my experience but is particularly good with the latter.
Personally I think that BMW still make some good petrol engines. The B58 in ‘40 badged cars feels pretty flexible to me with low down torque yet is happy to rev. Doesn’t sound like a Massey Ferguson under load either
The ZF8 works well with both petrol and diesel engines in my experience but is particularly good with the latter.
Court_S said:
No mention of the 335 xd’s squiffy, wallowy SE suspension though...
Personally I think that BMW still make some good petrol engines. The B58 in ‘40 badged cars feels pretty flexible to me with low down torque yet is happy to rev. Doesn’t sound like a Massey Ferguson under load either
The ZF8 works well with both petrol and diesel engines in my experience but is particularly good with the latter.
Never tried SE suspension, only the adaptive type. I feel pretty well qualified to comment having had a number of M cars prior to finally getting the diesel (my first diesel). The 4 wheel drive feels like a four wheel drive, there is some slight numbing of the front end feel and you drive it in a different way, but its not wallowy, if anything its a bit too hard. However it definitely has a place on British roads where it would embarrass my previous E39 or E60 M5s in anything but ideal conditions especially in corners.Personally I think that BMW still make some good petrol engines. The B58 in ‘40 badged cars feels pretty flexible to me with low down torque yet is happy to rev. Doesn’t sound like a Massey Ferguson under load either
The ZF8 works well with both petrol and diesel engines in my experience but is particularly good with the latter.
BTW there isn't much difference in noise when sitting in the cabin between a 335xd and a 440i BMW so I really don't know what you are talking about with the Massey Ferguson comments, the noise is very muted and sounds derived in both. There's an improvement with the top down in the petrol but not much. If you stick your ear on the bonnet you might have a point
julian64 said:
Court_S said:
No mention of the 335 xd’s squiffy, wallowy SE suspension though...
Personally I think that BMW still make some good petrol engines. The B58 in ‘40 badged cars feels pretty flexible to me with low down torque yet is happy to rev. Doesn’t sound like a Massey Ferguson under load either
The ZF8 works well with both petrol and diesel engines in my experience but is particularly good with the latter.
Never tried SE suspension, only the adaptive type. I feel pretty well qualified to comment having had a number of M cars prior to finally getting the diesel (my first diesel). The 4 wheel drive feels like a four wheel drive, there is some slight numbing of the front end feel and you drive it in a different way, but its not wallowy, if anything its a bit too hard. However it definitely has a place on British roads where it would embarrass my previous E39 or E60 M5s in anything but ideal conditions especially in corners.Personally I think that BMW still make some good petrol engines. The B58 in ‘40 badged cars feels pretty flexible to me with low down torque yet is happy to rev. Doesn’t sound like a Massey Ferguson under load either
The ZF8 works well with both petrol and diesel engines in my experience but is particularly good with the latter.
BTW there isn't much difference in noise when sitting in the cabin between a 335xd and a 440i BMW so I really don't know what you are talking about with the Massey Ferguson comments, the noise is very muted and sounds derived in both. There's an improvement with the top down in the petrol but not much. If you stick your ear on the bonnet you might have a point
Objectively, diesels are really good at what they do. They are just so joyless. No real character, sound rougher and point and squirt delivery. Add 4wd and huge grippy tyres to the mix and the whole thing is numbed further. This is great on a commute where you just need to get to the destination with minimal fuss, but for enjoyment they are pretty cold.
I would never buy a diesel again for that reason.
I would never buy a diesel again for that reason.
julian64 said:
I really don't know why anyone buys a performance petrol BMW any more. My 335xd is getting a bit old now at five years this year. I've tried an M3, M4, and M5 and they all seem to suffer from the same thing. The ZF8 doesn't suit a petrol car anywhere as well as it does the diesel.
Well for start the m3/4 don't have a ZF8 gearbox. Wills2 said:
julian64 said:
I really don't know why anyone buys a performance petrol BMW any more. My 335xd is getting a bit old now at five years this year. I've tried an M3, M4, and M5 and they all seem to suffer from the same thing. The ZF8 doesn't suit a petrol car anywhere as well as it does the diesel.
Well for start the m3/4 don't have a ZF8 gearbox. Pioneer said:
I run 3 diesels, 3 petrols and 1 hybrid. They all have their redeeming qualities. But when some numpty says my tuned 335d is just as good as my mates M3 I wonder why they're on PH
And when some numpty that's actually had both cars rather than commenting on their 'mates' car says the same? I guess its horses for course as the above poster said.If I could choose between a 335xd and an M3 to go to work in the morning it would be the 335xd. If I could choose what to take out on the weekend, well it wouldn't be a flappy paddle car of any sort. Where does that leave the M3 for a car enthusiast like me?
but how anyone would chose to own a soulless dirty diesel for none other than the reasons mentioned baffles me 
I dont care how much grunt they have Inevitably this will turn into a diesel bashing thread, but just my 2 cent worth: Depending on usage, a diesel may very well be "king". I have had a very strange ownership record over the last 2 years, with an F10 M5, X5 50D, Giulia Quadrifoglio, and now an F31 335D.
Now, I would never argue that the 335D was the most exciting out of that lot, but for my purposes it is actually the best fit: ability to transport a large dog (backseat for the M5 and Alfa), long distance comfort, and importantly range, as I find that 95 % of all journeys are 400+ km.
It has a good engine sound (for a diesel), an excellent ZF gearbox, and importantly, allows me to travel fast with no care for the range, whereas the Alfa or M5 would have its low fuel light on after 350 km, meaning average speed is actually quite a bit higher in the diesel.
If you were to do shorter journeys and don't mind refuelling more often, then petrol may very well be king, but diesel is not dead yet, and BMW does make, especially in the 6 cylinder versions, some cracking engines.
Now, I would never argue that the 335D was the most exciting out of that lot, but for my purposes it is actually the best fit: ability to transport a large dog (backseat for the M5 and Alfa), long distance comfort, and importantly range, as I find that 95 % of all journeys are 400+ km.
It has a good engine sound (for a diesel), an excellent ZF gearbox, and importantly, allows me to travel fast with no care for the range, whereas the Alfa or M5 would have its low fuel light on after 350 km, meaning average speed is actually quite a bit higher in the diesel.
If you were to do shorter journeys and don't mind refuelling more often, then petrol may very well be king, but diesel is not dead yet, and BMW does make, especially in the 6 cylinder versions, some cracking engines.
rassi said:
but for my purposes it is actually the best fit:
That really is the start and the end of it. You could have a M5 and a ford focus. Ask a granny which car is better for her needs or wants - focus every single time. Ask a car enthaus same thing and it will be m5 99% of the time.
pointless topic really OP. The 335D suits YOU now and thats fine.
I suppose I'm not really very good at explaining myself. I wouldn't pick the 335xd because I want to go to sleep on the morning commute, its actually because it makes more sense.
Closest I can liken it is when I go to the states. I can pretty much pick any hire car I want, and I either pick a giant MPV/truck or a mustang/camero. I don't pick a BMW of any sort because they previous two are more pleasant.
Same is true for the morning commute in the UK. The diesel BMW is more fun in the morning commute because its a better fit. I do more overtaking in the diesel. It gets off the line faster without sounding like a whaling banshee, its better on the uneven wet corners.
Don't get me wrong whaling banshee is great for te weekends, where there are no police and for track days, but to be honest whaling banshee in commuter traffic is simply asking for trouble. Non whaling banshee in a petrol means no power. In the diesel power is instant and almost inaudible, its just a better fit for that scenario
Closest I can liken it is when I go to the states. I can pretty much pick any hire car I want, and I either pick a giant MPV/truck or a mustang/camero. I don't pick a BMW of any sort because they previous two are more pleasant.
Same is true for the morning commute in the UK. The diesel BMW is more fun in the morning commute because its a better fit. I do more overtaking in the diesel. It gets off the line faster without sounding like a whaling banshee, its better on the uneven wet corners.
Don't get me wrong whaling banshee is great for te weekends, where there are no police and for track days, but to be honest whaling banshee in commuter traffic is simply asking for trouble. Non whaling banshee in a petrol means no power. In the diesel power is instant and almost inaudible, its just a better fit for that scenario
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