Nip on cloned car
Discussion
I’m hoping someone can help me out with this one.
I bought an X5 on Friday 1st March in Totton (West of Southampton) and promptly drove it home (East of Southampton). There it remained until Sunday 3rd March when my wife drove it to our local leisure centre parking in an ANPR controlled car park at roughly 8.25am to take our seven year old to a swimming lesson.
Two weeks later I get a call from the seller of the car (unusual I thought) to say he’d had a speeding fine from Met police through for doing 58 in a 50 somewhere in North London at 3.24am on Sunday 3rd March. He passed on my name to the Met Police (even though the car is registered in my wifes name).
Concerned by this we contact DVLA to suggest that our car may have been cloned. They wouldn’t do anything until we’d gone through the process with the Police.
So the NIP eventually came through to me (not the registered keeper) and we duly wrote a letter stating it wasn’t us. We also stated that to get from North London to our home we would have to have travelled along the M3 & M27, both of which have average speed camera enforced 50mph limits (the Junction of the M27 is 300 yards from our house so we would always use the motorway) so they could check that evidence to see whether we’d travelled along those roads to get home. Finally I stated that our mobiles will show as both having been no more than a few miles from our home address for the whole weekend.
The Met police responded to ask for detailed pictures of our vehicle which we provided.
Today I get an email from them stating that they’ve reviewed the images we provided against theirs and decided that it was us so we need to state who was driving the vehicle so they can progress and charge the driver.
They included a copy of their evidence which is black and white and whilst it does show a registration matching our vehicles the (poor quality image) of the registration plate doesn’t seem to show the same dealer writing as ours and the vehicle in the image doesn’t have (factory) roof rails whereas ours does.
I’ve gone back to them to state these but given that they’ve not accepted the evidence I’ve provided and offered thus far I don’t hold out much hope that they’ll accept this either.
I would be grateful for any advice as we will not accept a speeding conviction for something that we did not commit!
I bought an X5 on Friday 1st March in Totton (West of Southampton) and promptly drove it home (East of Southampton). There it remained until Sunday 3rd March when my wife drove it to our local leisure centre parking in an ANPR controlled car park at roughly 8.25am to take our seven year old to a swimming lesson.
Two weeks later I get a call from the seller of the car (unusual I thought) to say he’d had a speeding fine from Met police through for doing 58 in a 50 somewhere in North London at 3.24am on Sunday 3rd March. He passed on my name to the Met Police (even though the car is registered in my wifes name).
Concerned by this we contact DVLA to suggest that our car may have been cloned. They wouldn’t do anything until we’d gone through the process with the Police.
So the NIP eventually came through to me (not the registered keeper) and we duly wrote a letter stating it wasn’t us. We also stated that to get from North London to our home we would have to have travelled along the M3 & M27, both of which have average speed camera enforced 50mph limits (the Junction of the M27 is 300 yards from our house so we would always use the motorway) so they could check that evidence to see whether we’d travelled along those roads to get home. Finally I stated that our mobiles will show as both having been no more than a few miles from our home address for the whole weekend.
The Met police responded to ask for detailed pictures of our vehicle which we provided.
Today I get an email from them stating that they’ve reviewed the images we provided against theirs and decided that it was us so we need to state who was driving the vehicle so they can progress and charge the driver.
They included a copy of their evidence which is black and white and whilst it does show a registration matching our vehicles the (poor quality image) of the registration plate doesn’t seem to show the same dealer writing as ours and the vehicle in the image doesn’t have (factory) roof rails whereas ours does.
I’ve gone back to them to state these but given that they’ve not accepted the evidence I’ve provided and offered thus far I don’t hold out much hope that they’ll accept this either.
I would be grateful for any advice as we will not accept a speeding conviction for something that we did not commit!
I don't think your original argument is as strong as you think.
You might prefer to use the motorways to get home - but you don't have to. In addition, you don't necessarily have to take your phone with you when you drive - and neither did it necessarily have to be you or your wife driving the car.
I think that if you can point out material differences in the cars (which it seems you can - although the number plate one is meaningless, I could get a number plate knocked up in 5 mins and take a picture of it) it's a much stronger argument and I don't see why they wouldn't accept that?
You might prefer to use the motorways to get home - but you don't have to. In addition, you don't necessarily have to take your phone with you when you drive - and neither did it necessarily have to be you or your wife driving the car.
I think that if you can point out material differences in the cars (which it seems you can - although the number plate one is meaningless, I could get a number plate knocked up in 5 mins and take a picture of it) it's a much stronger argument and I don't see why they wouldn't accept that?
I take your point but at 4 or 5am on a Sunday morning all common sense would suggest a few miles of 50mph motorway is far more sensible than 5or so miles of 30mph town roads.
I'm incensed at the idea that some scrote is driving around with my cars registration plate and I have to fight for my innocence. I've not driven in London for a couple of years and my wife never has.
Yes also true that you don't always need the phone with you, but again maybe I'm relying too much on rationale thought.
It'd take quite the determined character to buy a car, premeditatedly keep their phone at home, drive said new car 100 miles away into north London at 3am just to speed on a road and then purposely not take the direct route home to avoid average speed cameras when already shown to have contempt for a speed limit and still be home in time to take their daughter swimming!
I'm incensed at the idea that some scrote is driving around with my cars registration plate and I have to fight for my innocence. I've not driven in London for a couple of years and my wife never has.
Yes also true that you don't always need the phone with you, but again maybe I'm relying too much on rationale thought.
It'd take quite the determined character to buy a car, premeditatedly keep their phone at home, drive said new car 100 miles away into north London at 3am just to speed on a road and then purposely not take the direct route home to avoid average speed cameras when already shown to have contempt for a speed limit and still be home in time to take their daughter swimming!
QuattroDave said:
I take your point but at 4 or 5am on a Sunday morning all common sense would suggest a few miles of 50mph motorway is far more sensible than 5or so miles of 30mph town roads.
I'm incensed at the idea that some scrote is driving around with my cars registration plate and I have to fight for my innocence. I've not driven in London for a couple of years and my wife never has.
Yes also true that you don't always need the phone with you, but again maybe I'm relying too much on rationale thought.
It'd take quite the determined character to buy a car, premeditatedly keep their phone at home, drive said new car 100 miles away into north London at 3am just to speed on a road and then purposely not take the direct route home to avoid average speed cameras when already shown to have contempt for a speed limit and still be home in time to take their daughter swimming!
Whilst I generally agree with what you've said :I'm incensed at the idea that some scrote is driving around with my cars registration plate and I have to fight for my innocence. I've not driven in London for a couple of years and my wife never has.
Yes also true that you don't always need the phone with you, but again maybe I'm relying too much on rationale thought.
It'd take quite the determined character to buy a car, premeditatedly keep their phone at home, drive said new car 100 miles away into north London at 3am just to speed on a road and then purposely not take the direct route home to avoid average speed cameras when already shown to have contempt for a speed limit and still be home in time to take their daughter swimming!
It's unrealistic to think the police have the resource to check motorway camera footage to see whether your car appeared between the hours of the offence and cross check that with the ANPR of the gym - and even if they did, the fact that you were not on the motorway doesn't prove you didn't commit the offence.
It's equally unlikely they're going to come and check your mobile phones - they would not have time. And anyway - maybe it's your work phone, and since it was the weekend you'd have been using your personal phone? It really isn't proof of anything - and I'm sure the police get many excuses for NIPs - so even though yours may be genuine, they are going to need something a lot more concrete.
Which I would think is the case if you can point out the roof bars and any other obvious differences in the cars.
Yes I'm aware there's lots of chancers out there but as youkeenly point out it's very easy to knock up a plate and so their evidence is as anecdotal as mine.
I have responded with regards the physical differences of the vehicle in their photos and will also offer for them to check the sim data in the vehicle which is concrete.
Oh what fun
I have responded with regards the physical differences of the vehicle in their photos and will also offer for them to check the sim data in the vehicle which is concrete.
Oh what fun
QuattroDave said:
Yes I'm aware there's lots of chancers out there but as youkeenly point out it's very easy to knock up a plate and so their evidence is as anecdotal as mine.
I have responded with regards the physical differences of the vehicle in their photos and will also offer for them to check the sim data in the vehicle which is concrete.
Oh what fun
OP where was the car advertised? Did the advert show the vehicles reg plate? If so its possibly where the number was cloned fromI have responded with regards the physical differences of the vehicle in their photos and will also offer for them to check the sim data in the vehicle which is concrete.
Oh what fun
They are likely to have some much better images than the one you have. Is there any damage to your car or other more permanent marks that may show up on a better quality image. They seem pretty sure that their pics and your's are the same car.
Is the alleged speed and limit shown on the NIP? or is it just a S172 asking for driver details
Just seen it in your first post, well inside SAC territory if the driver qualifies, maybe a pragmatic approach is the the best option
Is the alleged speed and limit shown on the NIP? or is it just a S172 asking for driver details
Just seen it in your first post, well inside SAC territory if the driver qualifies, maybe a pragmatic approach is the the best option
Edited by martinbiz on Tuesday 9th April 13:53
Bigends said:
QuattroDave said:
Yes I'm aware there's lots of chancers out there but as youkeenly point out it's very easy to knock up a plate and so their evidence is as anecdotal as mine.
I have responded with regards the physical differences of the vehicle in their photos and will also offer for them to check the sim data in the vehicle which is concrete.
Oh what fun
OP where was the car advertised? Did the advert show the vehicles reg plate? If so its possibly where the number was cloned fromI have responded with regards the physical differences of the vehicle in their photos and will also offer for them to check the sim data in the vehicle which is concrete.
Oh what fun
martinbiz said:
They are likely to have some much better images than the one you have. Is there any damage to your car or other more permanent marks that may show up on a better quality image. They seem pretty sure that their pics and your's are the same car.
Is the alleged speed and limit shown on the NIP? or is it just a S172 asking for driver details
Just seen it in your first post, well inside SAC territory if the driver qualifies, maybe a pragmatic approach is the the best option
Will NOT take point for something we did not do. If it has to go to court so be it. Is the alleged speed and limit shown on the NIP? or is it just a S172 asking for driver details
Just seen it in your first post, well inside SAC territory if the driver qualifies, maybe a pragmatic approach is the the best option
Edited by martinbiz on Tuesday 9th April 13:53
Our car has a small bubble of rust and we put some stickers on the back to match or other car but as a sure someone will say it's easy to put stickers on after the event and I've totally mastered the ability to accelerate localised rusting!
martinbiz said:
Don't shoot the messenger mate, just saying how it is, without good evidence to show ii is not your car you could be up against it.
How big is the rust spot, something that may show up in a higher re image?
I'd have thought the roof rails were a good starter for ten plus the different number plate font thrown in. (Cant really see the OP dashing out to get a new set of plates of the same number with a slightly different font in order to avoid a speeding ticket). Police acn also carry out checks to see of there were any other camera hits in North London at the time the OP's car was actually still in HantsHow big is the rust spot, something that may show up in a higher re image?
The roof rails are enough to throw doubt into the equation. Can you access the photo's from the site/AT where you bought the car?
With the above and the other "dubious" proof, I'd chance it in court. All the waffle about which motorway you would've used is irrelevant.
Will a Judge accept you bought a car, removed the roof rails, got caught speeding. put the rood rails back on with all the other circumstantial evidence you have to support it was not you; if you're credible and not just another scrote trying to pull the wool over the court's eyes... I'd back you.
I'd suggest once someone with a brain sees the situation and thinks about it, it is unlikely to get that far.
With the above and the other "dubious" proof, I'd chance it in court. All the waffle about which motorway you would've used is irrelevant.
Will a Judge accept you bought a car, removed the roof rails, got caught speeding. put the rood rails back on with all the other circumstantial evidence you have to support it was not you; if you're credible and not just another scrote trying to pull the wool over the court's eyes... I'd back you.
I'd suggest once someone with a brain sees the situation and thinks about it, it is unlikely to get that far.
I had something similar when selling a previous car. It seems to stem largely from autotrader adverts with the registration displayed. Very easy to filter and find an exact matching car and do online checks for the insurance tax and MOT.
Luckily mine was only a fine (DART charge) but I live over 2 hours away and , because I'm overly cautious:
-Got security at work to provide CCTV of my car entering the work car park that day
-Got them to print out security swipes of my ID pass (and my Father's as he works there and was the only other named driver)
-Printed out my work calendar which showed funnily enough that I was in a job interview on site at the time of the offence.
Your first port of call is to report it to your local police that your car has been cloned and someone has been illegally driving with your registration. Now you have a crime reference number.
Then I would try and get a contact at your local station , mine was really helpful. I took a photo of my number plate and the one in the ticket and you could see one was biased to the right and didn't line up with the grill in the same way. The car was otherwise identical .
The local police may be able to see your car being pinged on ANPR locally at the same time. I would try and seek that info now.
Luckily mine was only a fine (DART charge) but I live over 2 hours away and , because I'm overly cautious:
-Got security at work to provide CCTV of my car entering the work car park that day
-Got them to print out security swipes of my ID pass (and my Father's as he works there and was the only other named driver)
-Printed out my work calendar which showed funnily enough that I was in a job interview on site at the time of the offence.
Your first port of call is to report it to your local police that your car has been cloned and someone has been illegally driving with your registration. Now you have a crime reference number.
Then I would try and get a contact at your local station , mine was really helpful. I took a photo of my number plate and the one in the ticket and you could see one was biased to the right and didn't line up with the grill in the same way. The car was otherwise identical .
The local police may be able to see your car being pinged on ANPR locally at the same time. I would try and seek that info now.
joropug said:
I had something similar when selling a previous car. It seems to stem largely from autotrader adverts with the registration displayed. Very easy to filter and find an exact matching car and do online checks for the insurance tax and MOT.
Luckily mine was only a fine (DART charge) but I live over 2 hours away and , because I'm overly cautious:
-Got security at work to provide CCTV of my car entering the work car park that day
-Got them to print out security swipes of my ID pass (and my Father's as he works there and was the only other named driver)
-Printed out my work calendar which showed funnily enough that I was in a job interview on site at the time of the offence.
Your first port of call is to report it to your local police that your car has been cloned and someone has been illegally driving with your registration. Now you have a crime reference number.
Then I would try and get a contact at your local station , mine was really helpful. I took a photo of my number plate and the one in the ticket and you could see one was biased to the right and didn't line up with the grill in the same way. The car was otherwise identical .
The local police may be able to see your car being pinged on ANPR locally at the same time. I would try and seek that info now.
Brill thanks. I'll stop by my local station on the way home. Luckily mine was only a fine (DART charge) but I live over 2 hours away and , because I'm overly cautious:
-Got security at work to provide CCTV of my car entering the work car park that day
-Got them to print out security swipes of my ID pass (and my Father's as he works there and was the only other named driver)
-Printed out my work calendar which showed funnily enough that I was in a job interview on site at the time of the offence.
Your first port of call is to report it to your local police that your car has been cloned and someone has been illegally driving with your registration. Now you have a crime reference number.
Then I would try and get a contact at your local station , mine was really helpful. I took a photo of my number plate and the one in the ticket and you could see one was biased to the right and didn't line up with the grill in the same way. The car was otherwise identical .
The local police may be able to see your car being pinged on ANPR locally at the same time. I would try and seek that info now.
martinbiz said:
They are likely to have some much better images than the one you have. Is there any damage to your car or other more permanent marks that may show up on a better quality image. They seem pretty sure that their pics and your's are the same car.
Is the alleged speed and limit shown on the NIP? or is it just a S172 asking for driver details
Just seen it in your first post, well inside SAC territory if the driver qualifies, maybe a pragmatic approach is the the best option
That would require them to commit perjury though, by declaring somebody was a driver when they know they were not? I appreciate the police are being difficult, but if they don't accept the evidence then the only other option is to present it as a defence for a s172 prosection.Is the alleged speed and limit shown on the NIP? or is it just a S172 asking for driver details
Just seen it in your first post, well inside SAC territory if the driver qualifies, maybe a pragmatic approach is the the best option
A friend had the same problem, but it arose as he was just about to set off to visit us in Germany. It sort of spoilt his long Weekend, not so much the speeding issue but worrying about all of the other stuff that may or may not happen. End result was the 3 series in photo had one of the small boot lip spoilers and his didn’t. Think if it had been the other way around (they could of accused him of fitting one) he may of been screwed, as other than the spoiler, car was identical.
It really did seem as though they weren’t interested in anything he said and it came across as far as they were concerned they had a fine coming their way, whereas a cloned car they were getting zilch
It really did seem as though they weren’t interested in anything he said and it came across as far as they were concerned they had a fine coming their way, whereas a cloned car they were getting zilch
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