Is Democracy Dead?
Discussion
Well, according to Question Time last night, it looks like the French may vote "non" to the European Constitution. If they do, the likelihood is that they'll have another referendum on an ammended constitution.
Now you could call me cynical, any you'd probably be right, but this smacks to me of "We'll get a European constitution through by hook or by crook".
What happens if the French also vote "non" to that? Do they have another go until they eventually get fed up and vote "oui"?
How do Europeans vote "thanks, but no thanks"?
Something smells very poissony to me about the whole thing. I for one would just like an opportunity to say whether I am for or against Europe.
I'm forty now and I've never been asked my opinion. The youngest person in the UK who has ever had a chance to express an opinion on the matter would have to be fifty one years old by my reckoning as the last vote was back in 1972 IIRC. That's hardly representative.
I think the whole European thing is in for a very rocky ride over the next few years. What do you think?
Now you could call me cynical, any you'd probably be right, but this smacks to me of "We'll get a European constitution through by hook or by crook".
What happens if the French also vote "non" to that? Do they have another go until they eventually get fed up and vote "oui"?
How do Europeans vote "thanks, but no thanks"?
Something smells very poissony to me about the whole thing. I for one would just like an opportunity to say whether I am for or against Europe.
I'm forty now and I've never been asked my opinion. The youngest person in the UK who has ever had a chance to express an opinion on the matter would have to be fifty one years old by my reckoning as the last vote was back in 1972 IIRC. That's hardly representative.
I think the whole European thing is in for a very rocky ride over the next few years. What do you think?
I voted for UKIP at the euro elections purely because I hoped that enough people would do so for the tories to wake up, smell the coffee and become the advocates of a Britain out policy.
Sadly none of the major parties will take the step that I believe a majority of britons want and that's to give us a vote on leaving the EU.
Sadly none of the major parties will take the step that I believe a majority of britons want and that's to give us a vote on leaving the EU.
I think Bliar is having a hard time balancing our inherant distrust of all things EU and his personal desire to drag us into Eurocracy and ulimately his goal of being President of the entire continent.
Not sure what he'll end up doing to get away with it but you're right that if the Frogs are manipulating things to get a Oui then our chances of getting screwed are far higher.
Not sure what he'll end up doing to get away with it but you're right that if the Frogs are manipulating things to get a Oui then our chances of getting screwed are far higher.
I'm obviously having one of my european days. I can't help thinking this country would be better off if we merged into europe.
I believe in culture and diversity, and would quite like to be part of the united states of europe.
But the counter argument is an obvious one. Who would stand up and say they don't want to be english, and if they didn't isn't it just easier to tell them to move out of the country?
I think the reason no one has had a vote since we decided to become part of a common market is because the answer is ultimately obvious but wrong.
I believe in culture and diversity, and would quite like to be part of the united states of europe.
But the counter argument is an obvious one. Who would stand up and say they don't want to be english, and if they didn't isn't it just easier to tell them to move out of the country?
I think the reason no one has had a vote since we decided to become part of a common market is because the answer is ultimately obvious but wrong.
The EU does have way too much bureaucracy attached and it's high-handed rulings should be vetoed, but other than that, an EU constitution doesn't signal the end of sovereignty, really it doesn't.
There are two issues at stake in the UK referendum though. Firstly, the vast majority of people on the street are largely un/misinformed about the EU but have been manipulated by scaremongering tabloids.
However, the other issue is more grave.
In realising that the French people could vote against the constitution, Blair has realised that what he thought would be an apathetically-driven walk in the park to get the legislation sorted might be more difficult.
Unfortunately, he's proposing that the British people don't get a say on it, just in case they don't agree with him.
Mugabe would be proud
There are two issues at stake in the UK referendum though. Firstly, the vast majority of people on the street are largely un/misinformed about the EU but have been manipulated by scaremongering tabloids.
However, the other issue is more grave.
In realising that the French people could vote against the constitution, Blair has realised that what he thought would be an apathetically-driven walk in the park to get the legislation sorted might be more difficult.
Unfortunately, he's proposing that the British people don't get a say on it, just in case they don't agree with him.
Mugabe would be proud
Know what you mean. If they vote "no" then it'll be re-worded, re-packaged and voted on again. Eventually there will be a "yes". On the other hand, no one is proposing that if they vote "yes" the no-camapaigners have a right to another vote to see if this decision can be reversed. It's a case of "heads I win, tails you lose".
Julian64 said:
I believe in culture and diversity, and would quite like to be part of the united states of europe.
I too believe in culture and diversity.
I believe all european countries have their own cultures and that they are rather diverse.
Thats the problem.
We cant all be part of the same government, with the same laws, otherwise we loose large amounts of that identity, culture and diversity.
Bullfighting? That would be illegal.
Foxhunting? I would put that in as a nation tradition, but the lentilists banned it...
Firearms? We ban 99.9% of them and heavily legistlate the remainder. Large amounts of Europe doesnt.
Speed limits? See Autobahn...
Taxes? Wide disparity
Any category you pick, there is a VERY wide gap across the continent. As a result any common law creates an amorphous blend of consesus politics, wiping out the very diversity and culture you praise.
I know I've edited out a large chunk of your post Julian and taken it out of context, but it neatly illustrated a point I wanted to make.
TheLemming said:
I believe in culture and diversity, and would quite like to be part of the united states of europe.
I too believe in culture and diversity.
I believe all european countries have their own cultures and that they are rather diverse.
Thats the problem.
We cant all be part of the same government, with the same laws, otherwise we loose large amounts of that identity, culture and diversity.
Bullfighting? That would be illegal.
Foxhunting? I would put that in as a nation tradition, but the lentilists banned it...
Firearms? We ban 99.9% of them and heavily legistlate the remainder. Large amounts of Europe doesnt.
Speed limits? See Autobahn...
Taxes? Wide disparity
Any category you pick, there is a VERY wide gap across the continent. As a result any common law creates an amorphous blend of consesus politics, wiping out the very diversity and culture you praise.
I know I've edited out a large chunk of your post Julian and taken it out of context, but it neatly illustrated a point I wanted to make.
But in doing so you highlight the part I like most about joining to europe.
We have suffered as a country for the longest time in being over legislated. The majority rules the minority with no thought of consequences. Therefore stupid restrictive laws are passed such as gun control and fox hunting, and even antismoking.
Now while I see smoking as a filthy habit and fox hunting as a pointless exercise and even the idea of having guns seems a bit redundant in our society, I respect those people who want to do it as their freedom of choice, and don't think laws are appropriate. It doesn't greatly impinge on me and I will tolerate others to have them tolerate me.
This used to be the essence of english to me, tolerence.
So to further my argument I quite like the idea that central laws have to cope with the diversity of europe and to suddenly get a crying woman on the british TV, a frenzy of media activity and knee jerk reaction by a publicity seeking politician to suddenly ban guns, hunting, smoking would cut no ice in the far flung reaches of europe and would therefore not make it into law.
If england has become the nanny state then balancing it with europe might improve us.
Julian64 said:
We have suffered as a country for the longest time in being over legislated. The majority rules the minority with no thought of consequences. Therefore stupid restrictive laws are passed such as gun control and fox hunting, and even antismoking.
But the EU will be worse. They will not allow the superset of tolerances in Europe, i.e. we all get German speed limits, UK gun control, etc, they will reduce it all to the minimum set of freedoms - and we won't get a choice because we (the UK, the minority) will be overruled by the majority. It will be like current Westminster politics, only devastatingly worse.
Julian64 said:
If england has become the nanny state then balancing it with europe might improve us.
If England (sic) is the nanny state, the Europe is the Mary Poppins state, without the amusing bits.
Size Nine Elm said:
We have suffered as a country for the longest time in being over legislated. The majority rules the minority with no thought of consequences. Therefore stupid restrictive laws are passed such as gun control and fox hunting, and even antismoking.
But the EU will be worse. They will not allow the superset of tolerances in Europe, i.e. we all get German speed limits, UK gun control, etc, they will reduce it all to the minimum set of freedoms - and we won't get a choice because we (the UK, the minority) will be overruled by the majority. It will be like current Westminster politics, only devastatingly worse.
Julian64 said:
If england has become the nanny state then balancing it with europe might improve us.
If England (sic) is the nanny state, the Europe is the Mary Poppins state, without the amusing bits.
That is the gamble I take in saying lets go ahead. But I wouldn't mind german speed control or even that in france compared to what we have here.
I gamble that instead of reducing us to the minimal set of freedoms we will have the minimal set that brussels can impose over every nation. Now I think thats got to be a little less restrictive than what we have now.
I could be wrong but when you look at the way this countries going I would doubt they could be any worse, I already feel we as english have far and away the most restrictive laws in europe.
srebbe64 said:
Know what you mean. If they vote "no" then it'll be re-worded, re-packaged and voted on again. Eventually there will be a "yes". On the other hand, no one is proposing that if they vote "yes" the no-camapaigners have a right to another vote to see if this decision can be reversed. It's a case of "heads I win, tails you lose".
Actually I think it would be worse than that. "Essential" bits of the constitution like the voting rights with 25 would be cut out and nodded through Brussels at a political level. The rest would be introduced gradually in a similar manner, so by stealth. Europe is too much of a gravy train for politicians for them to let it die - after all it creates a few hundred £200k pa jobs for them to share amongst them and their cronies. It generates wealth, particularly for the politicians....
If the french vote no, this might be the last time that they actually ask the european public opinion, on the excuse that they know better than us of course.
Julian64 said:
we as english
Speak for yourself...
Europe is like the old joke.
If we all had Italian cars, German speed limits, French cuisine, British justice, there wouldn't be a problem (depends on the Italian cars a bit...)
Withthe EU we'd have French cars, British cuisine, Dutch speed limits, German police and Italian justice.
The Irish have far too much influence in the EU, via Murphy's law. If the EU can make a mess of anything, they will.
Julian64 said:
I'm obviously having one of my european days. I can't help thinking this country would be better off if we merged into europe.
I believe in culture and diversity, and would quite like to be part of the united states of europe.
But the counter argument is an obvious one. Who would stand up and say they don't want to be english, and if they didn't isn't it just easier to tell them to move out of the country?
I think the reason no one has had a vote since we decided to become part of a common market is because the answer is ultimately obvious but wrong.
with all due respect...
your first paragraph is laughably naive. Your rulers are not interested in culture and diversity, they create laws every day with one ultimate aim. Homogonisation.
The second 'obvious' paragraph is, well..., not obvious?, care to explain what you mean?
Your 3rd Paragraph is simply incorrect. 'we' were never asked if we wanted to be part of the then EEC, and certainly never asked if we wanted to be part of a federal europe (EU).
let us hope that you don't have one of your 'european days' when it comes our time to vote on a loaded, carefully worded 'referendum'...
for what it's worth, I believe that their empire will ultimately lead to farcical disaster, and ultimately an eventual tragic war. it's just a shame that the two-headed treacherous Bliar, along with the other besuited gangsters in high office will not have to suffer the consequences of his egotistical aspirations. His children will however, just like mine, and just like 'yours'...
Dr Strangelove said:
for what it's worth, I believe that their empire will ultimately lead to farcical disaster, and ultimately an eventual tragic war. it's just a shame that the two-headed treacherous Bliar, along with the other besuited gangsters in high office will not have to suffer the consequences of his egotistical aspirations. His children will however, just like mine, and just like 'yours'...
This is exactly right, we've always been at war with our European neighbours and I find it amazing that having experienced a mere 60 years of peace we're expected to believe that we can now all live together as one happy nation.
What will happen, will be exactly what happened with Yugoslavia - we will be condemning our kids or our kids, kids to a very scary and uncertain future.
Interesting that Le Grand Fromages of the EU were planning to vote out our right of veto.
How can that be possible?
And now they want to scrap the rebate, worth £3Bn a year. Why? Because we're apparently rich and some of the other countries are poorer. Well tough bananas, I didn't invite half the impoverished ex-Soviet Union lot to join.
So basically, we're sending money to the other countries. Nice if you're a recipient - that's why they're so keen to sign up of course, for the free handouts - but how many poor countries are we supposed to pay for? You don't get rich by giving it all away.
How can that be possible?
And now they want to scrap the rebate, worth £3Bn a year. Why? Because we're apparently rich and some of the other countries are poorer. Well tough bananas, I didn't invite half the impoverished ex-Soviet Union lot to join.
So basically, we're sending money to the other countries. Nice if you're a recipient - that's why they're so keen to sign up of course, for the free handouts - but how many poor countries are we supposed to pay for? You don't get rich by giving it all away.
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