Improving running time/speed (ParkRun)

[JapanRed]

Hi all,

I’m just coming back from 9 months off running due to patellar tendinopathy. Had some fairly strict physio, strengthening, massaging and stretching exercises but am now back to 5km runs with no knee pain whatsoever.

At the minute I’m taking it really steady and doing the 5km in 31-33mins. I could go quite a bit faster. Last summer before my injury I got down to about 25mins but realistically I want to be hitting 20-22mins by the end of the year.

What’s the best way to achieve this? I’m tempted to go with the following;
3 runs per week.
8km slow pace
5km mid pace
2.5km fast pace.

I’m hoping that if I kept this up most weeks I would build up both speed and stamina and my 5km ParkRun times would gradually fall. I’ll be supplementing this with my usual weight training which includes legs.

I’m not competing by the way. Just want to get fitter.

Any advice appreciated.

[MOBB]

Watching with interest

Pb 24.58 but currently over 30 mins mainly due to weight gain following an injury

Would love to be well under 25 mins

[Skyedriver]

Also watching with interest, I'm 66 this week and the one who posted about knee pain a couple of weeks ago.

Parkrun also depends upon the actual course. Catterick Racecourse is absolutely (well almost) flat. Ganavan Sands (Oban) is like fell running on tarmac.

I could go and do a flat 5K but trying to do the Oban one just knacks my knee (and everything else). Sadly that's now my local run so haven't been for a year.

[JapanRed]

Skyedriver said:

Also watching with interest, I'm 66 this week and the one who posted about knee pain a couple of weeks ago.

Parkrun also depends upon the actual course. Catterick Racecourse is absolutely (well almost) flat. Ganavan Sands (Oban) is like fell running on tarmac.

I could go and do a flat 5K but trying to do the Oban one just knacks my knee (and everything else). Sadly that's now my local run so haven't been for a year.

I built up to 5km on treadmill as per physio advice. So 1km, 1.5km, 2km etc. Doing 2-3 runs per week and increasing or staying at same distance depending on how knee felt. If I felt pain I stopped immediately. If it hurt next day I dropped distance down again. Target is to slowly increase distance (at a slow pace) with the goal of having no pain either during the run or the next day.

Once I could do 5km on treadmill I started again from 2.5km but on a relatively flat route outdoors. Running outdoors is much harder on the knees due to the ground not being level even when the route is flat.

I’m now at a stage where I am comfortable with 5km outdoors on a flat route so am starting to incorporate decent hills on my route.

Still maintaining proper stretches before and after running. Doing leg weights at gym 3 times a week. Icing my knee after every run.

Ballache but long term will be stronger for it.

[rossmc88]

Oban parkrun is savage with that hill at the start

[Parsnip]

This all comes with the disclaimer of watching your recovery from injury and assumes that the distance is no issue for you (if you are hitting 30min 5kms it doesn't sound like it is) A couple of long runs here and there just to keep your base mileage will be all you need on the distance front - if you can run 8k easily enough at a slow pace, then I'd argue that's more than enough distance ability and the rest is all speed.

Getting quick for a 5k is all about speedwork - 400s, 800s, 1200s - all at above your 5k pace. You only have one run per week in your proposal where you are going at or above 5k pace - not what I would be doing. To hit your target you need to be running 4-4.25ish/km - how often are you running at this speed? Doing 8km at 5min/km will not directly translate to being able to do 5km at 4.20...

Break up your runs to include a couple of hard efforts - that 8k long run - do a couple of 400m efforts at your 5km pace in the middle and recover at your long run pace. Substitute the 2.5km and 5km runs for interval sessions. Make sure you recover properly and don't overdo it, if you need a day off, take it.

I would also build up your total distance a bit - 15.5km/week running is not a lot to try and hit 20 mins - its probably doable, but you need to make sure every km is quality and has a purpose.

Every minute under 25 starts to get much, much harder to hit. Once you hit the low 20s, a few seconds per km will feel noticeably more horrible. You are talking about going from 6+ min kms at the moment to 4min kms - not an inconsiderable jump - its the difference between a treadmill going at 10kph and 15kph. This isn't a dig or anything, but it is a big jump - getting back to doing a 25 is step 1, then start shaving time from there.

Get used to running faster than you need to and learn what it feels like and learn how you feel with a lot of fast running in your legs.- a 5k is a lot harder to pace right than most people think - it is really hard to negative split because it's too short to come in slow and speed up, but too long to open the taps in km 1 and try to hang on.

Edit - Listen to medical advice over people on the internet - if you are recovering from injury - that is priority number 1 - building slow is better than crocking yourself and having to start all over again.

Edited by Parsnip on Tuesday 23 April 09:29

[andy_s]

^ Wise words.

[FredClogs]

20minute 5k is fast... If you can do 1k at that pace just keep stretching that out, until you can do 3 or 4 and then on Saturday morning you give yourself a chance. But you'll need a good base of aerobic fitness which you'll get from longer extended runs. Warm up well, very well before stepping on the pace and recover well. Have you looked at the MAF method of heartrate training?

[PistonTim]

Set yourself a range of goals, getting from 30 to 25 is WAY easier than 25 - 22 let alone 20.

Speed work, realistic targets and patience.

[JapanRed]

Parsnip said:

This all comes with the disclaimer of watching your recovery from injury and assumes that the distance is no issue for you (if you are hitting 30min 5kms it doesn't sound like it is) A couple of long runs here and there just to keep your base mileage will be all you need on the distance front - if you can run 8k easily enough at a slow pace, then I'd argue that's more than enough distance ability and the rest is all speed.

Getting quick for a 5k is all about speedwork - 400s, 800s, 1200s - all at above your 5k pace. You only have one run per week in your proposal where you are going at or above 5k pace - not what I would be doing. To hit your target you need to be running 4-4.25ish/km - how often are you running at this speed? Doing 8km at 5min/km will not directly translate to being able to do 5km at 4.20...

Break up your runs to include a couple of hard efforts - that 8k long run - do a couple of 400m efforts at your 5km pace in the middle and recover at your long run pace. Substitute the 2.5km and 5km runs for interval sessions. Make sure you recover properly and don't overdo it, if you need a day off, take it.

I would also build up your total distance a bit - 15.5km/week running is not a lot to try and hit 20 mins - its probably doable, but you need to make sure every km is quality and has a purpose.

Every minute under 25 starts to get much, much harder to hit. Once you hit the low 20s, a few seconds per km will feel noticeably more horrible. You are talking about going from 6+ min kms at the moment to 4min kms - not an inconsiderable jump - its the difference between a treadmill going at 10kph and 15kph. This isn't a dig or anything, but it is a big jump - getting back to doing a 25 is step 1, then start shaving time from there.

Get used to running faster than you need to and learn what it feels like and learn how you feel with a lot of fast running in your legs.- a 5k is a lot harder to pace right than most people think - it is really hard to negative split because it's too short to come in slow and speed up, but too long to open the taps in km 1 and try to hang on.

Edit - Listen to medical advice over people on the internet - if you are recovering from injury - that is priority number 1 - building slow is better than crocking yourself and having to start all over again.

Edited by Parsnip on Tuesday 23 April 09:29

Thanks for the advice. I’m quite confident I can get back down to 25min. I could prob do a 28min tomorrow (just taking it steady with the knee).

I’ll incorporate a few faster runs into my regime. Problem is with the overall distance it’s tough at the minute as I like to run just 3-4 times a week as I like to have a day rest between each run.

So that might translate to something like the below;

Week 1
Mon - Speed work
Wed - speed work
Sat - park run

Week 2
Mon - speed work
Wed - long run
Sat - park run

Not sure how I can improve on this unless I start running 2 days on the trot (which I can do but am cautious with the knee at the min).

In terms of pacing a 5km run - assuming a flat course I’ve always tended to try and maintain a constant speed all the way round (other than a 200m sprint at the end. Is this advised or would you do something else?

Thanks again.

[JapanRed]

FredClogs said:

20minute 5k is fast... If you can do 1k at that pace just keep stretching that out, until you can do 3 or 4 and then on Saturday morning you give yourself a chance. But you'll need a good base of aerobic fitness which you'll get from longer extended runs. Warm up well, very well before stepping on the pace and recover well. Have you looked at the MAF method of heartrate training?

Not heard of MAF method what is it?
Ive done interval training a lot in the past (on the treadmill).

[JapanRed]

PistonTim said:

Set yourself a range of goals, getting from 30 to 25 is WAY easier than 25 - 22 let alone 20.

Speed work, realistic targets and patience.

I’m not suggesting for a moment it’s easy. I could get back to 25 relatively easy (assuming knee stays ok). It’s the sub 25’s that I might struggle with.

[FredClogs]

JapanRed said:

FredClogs said:

20minute 5k is fast... If you can do 1k at that pace just keep stretching that out, until you can do 3 or 4 and then on Saturday morning you give yourself a chance. But you'll need a good base of aerobic fitness which you'll get from longer extended runs. Warm up well, very well before stepping on the pace and recover well. Have you looked at the MAF method of heartrate training?

Not heard of MAF method what is it?
Ive done interval training a lot in the past (on the treadmill).

Training to a specific heart rate limit, so essentially the further you run the slower you get, but it makes sure you are always in the aerobic zone and it's great for your heart and lung function. Also it creates a good metric on which you can assess progress because times alone don't always reflect an actual improvement as there's a lot of other factors at play.

Plenty online about it.

[MC Bodge]

As others have said, don't go too hard too soon.

A few ideas:

Try to run smoothly and efficiently. I see some appalling, plodding, pounding, heel flicking out running technique.

Swing your arms from the shoulders, lift your knees, FLEX YOUR HIPS, land lightly on your feet.

Breath from the diaphragm. Practice all of the time until it becomes natural, it can make a big difference.

I find that a hilly route is good for a fartlek (mixed effort) run. Running uphill taxes the aerobic system and running down helps with leg speed (and aerobic).

Get used to trying hard and to running fast. Grit your teeth and be competitive. It's only 5km, it will be over quickly!

Doing fast intervals/efforts are good. Even better with somebody of a similar or slightly faster pace. Intervals with an incline towards the end make you work hard.

Build a mileage base, run smoothly, cycle and do some bodyweight strength and conditioning training.

Edited by MC Bodge on Tuesday 23 April 15:05

[Parsnip]

JapanRed said:

PistonTim said:

Set yourself a range of goals, getting from 30 to 25 is WAY easier than 25 - 22 let alone 20.

Speed work, realistic targets and patience.

I’m not suggesting for a moment it’s easy. I could get back to 25 relatively easy (assuming knee stays ok). It’s the sub 25’s that I might struggle with.

This in bucketloads - doesn't matter if you get a PB by 5 seconds or 5 minutes as long as you are heading in the right direction.

I would guess that most fit people could break 30, most fit people who do a bit of running break 25, but after that (and below 20 moreso) you need to be a bit serious about it and/or be naturally very quick.

JapanRed said:

In terms of pacing a 5km run - assuming a flat course I’ve always tended to try and maintain a constant speed all the way round (other than a 200m sprint at the end. Is this advised or would you do something else?

Negative splitting (i.e getting quicker as you go) is almost always faster, but it is hard to do. You will get lots of conflicting advice, but you will likely lose more time if you go out fast and blow up than if you need to make up a handful of seconds in the last km and you have another gear to shift into.

First km - a (very) hard extension to your proper warmup - say ~5 seconds below your goal pace.
Next 2.5km bang on your goal pace.
Last 1.5km at ~5s above your goal pace - this is why you need to know how fast running feels - throttles past the stops, engine room reporting failures and the big Looney Toons ACME pressure gauge is past the warning line - you are emptying the tanks but know the plane will make the runway and not fall short - in the words of Jens Voight - "SHUT UP LEGS".
There is no need to leave anything for a sprint - you are racing the clock, not someone else - if you do it right, throw up 10m after the line, not 10m before it.

Edited by Parsnip on Tuesday 23 April 14:43

[esuuv]

I'm really not built to run - i'm 6'6 and not a rake (about 95Kg on a really good day) - i've run a few sub 20 parkruns (and a lot more over 20 mins)

I am going to go against what some say on here and say that distance does matter - training hard and making every mile count is really tough - training more, but easier, just gives you a better base - makes you less susceptible to injury - and just gives you a better idea of feel and form, obviously with specific sessions to get the speed.

Running under 6.30 mins/mile is hard work - i'd run at least a to mile warm up - about 8 min per mile pace, the run itself - as the previous poster said - first K or so, just below your max - wind it up to max for the middle - and the rest of it - just blow the doors of..............if you can sprint the last 100m, you weren't going hard enough.

[MC Bodge]

This has come up before, but a 25min 5K is only 3x 8min miles.

An able bodied, lean, healthy, non injured, young ish man with a little running practice should physically be able to do that. (Think running for your life and it isn't that fast).

Take this as encouragement, It's very do-able!

Edited by MC Bodge on Tuesday 23 April 15:13

[Parsnip]

esuuv said:

I am going to go against what some say on here and say that distance does matter - training hard and making every mile count is really tough - training more, but easier, just gives you a better base - makes you less susceptible to injury - and just gives you a better idea of feel and form, obviously with specific sessions to get the speed.

I agree with you - it's the old analogy of base mileage being a cake and speedwork the icing and cherry - no point in having the garnish if you don't have a cake to put it on.

BUT

If you have a limited time to train, the quality of the training starts to become far more important than the quantity. Ideally you would intersperse all of the required speedwork (and it is required to do a quick 5k) training with plenty of easy miles and plenty of recovery running, cycling, swimming, the works. But if something has to go and you know your cake is a bit dry and the bakeoff final is coming, make do with what you have and throw a stload of icing and cherries on it. As long as by doing it, your cake doesn't collapse under all of the extras. Much like this analogy is collapsing...

[MC Bodge]

Parsnip said:

I agree with you - it's the old analogy of base mileage being a cake and speedwork the icing and cherry - no point in having the garnish if you don't have a cake to put it on.

BUT

If you have a limited time to train, the quality of the training starts to become far more important than the quantity. Ideally you would intersperse all of the required speedwork (and it is required to do a quick 5k) training with plenty of easy miles and plenty of recovery running, cycling, swimming, the works. But if something has to go and you know your cake is a bit dry and the bakeoff final is coming, make do with what you have and throw a stload of icing and cherries on it. As long as by doing it, your cake doesn't collapse under all of the extras. Much like this analogy is collapsing...

To sort of agree, I don't think that a massive mileage base is required for a reasonable 5K. For 10K plus, it is much more important.

...However, a decent cardiovascular and strength base and tolerance of hard effort for 20-odd minutes is very helpful.

I'm currently getting back into running, and doing a mixture of undulating fartlek, economy pace and intervals. Endurance is improving.

Edited by MC Bodge on Tuesday 23 April 16:45

[irish boy]

Some great advice in this thread. I’m 42 this year, always considered myself relatively fit tho never belonged to a gym or did much exercise. Decided to start running last year and entered my first park run in August. Started around 27 mins but within a few weeks was down to 25, getting below that was tough. Sitting at 23 now at thought that would be me but reading some advice in this thread gives me some great tips to improve some more.