When do limits change with no signage?

[markiii]

having had the fun of an SAC yesterday, thought of a question last night I really should have asked.

Using the old street lights tell you its a 30 unless otherwise signed rule.

Your driving down a street lighted road with additional limit sign, so its a 40, 50 whatever, you turn off onto another road that's also street lighted but has no limit signs. Does the previous limit still apply as you haven't seen a reduction sign or because its a seperate road do you start from the basic assumption again and it becomes a 30?

From a logical perspective I say you start from the general principle of a 30 again, that said if its looks identical in character to a streetlit road with a higher limit that I'd just turned off I'd probably continue at my original speed. If it was a housing estate I'd assume it was a 30?

What I can't find is anything that specifically addresses the scenario in the Highway code.

Can anyone provide a definative answer and supporting link?

[silentbrown]

There should always be a sign indicating a change of limit, but there are also requirements for the maximum distance between repeaters signs.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:UK_Traffic_Sig...

So if you thought you were in a 40 but haven't seen a repeater for 350m, assume you're in a 30...

[Pica-Pica]

Well, I did ask that question at a SAC last year. I had turned from a 40 dual carriageway, round a roundabout into another dual carriageway, which I assumed was still 40, because it always had been. We were asked to make a note of how we were speeding, and how to avoid it in future. My note was, ‘when turning into a new road, if you fail to see a sign, assume it is 30 until you have confirmation it is not, e.g. 40mph repeaters’.
I was doing 37. (I found it was marked as 30 but a bit close to, and partially obscured by, pedestrian crossing lights, I was concentrating on that imminent hazard, no excuse though).

[Pica-Pica]

silentbrown said:

There should always be a sign indicating a change of limit, but there are also requirements for the maximum distance between repeaters signs.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:UK_Traffic_Sig...

So if you thought you were in a 40 but haven't seen a repeater for 350m, assume you're in a 30...

Check that is the latest word, it was updated in 2016, revising distances.

[JimbobVFR]

Pica-Pica said:

Well, I did ask that question at a SAC last year. I had turned from a 40 dual carriageway, round a roundabout into another dual carriageway, which I assumed was still 40, because it always had been. We were asked to make a note of how we were speeding, and how to avoid it in future. My note was, ‘when turning into a new road, if you fail to see a sign, assume it is 30 until you have confirmation it is not, e.g. 40mph repeaters’.
I was doing 37. (I found it was marked as 30 but a bit close to, and partially obscured by, pedestrian crossing lights, I was concentrating on that imminent hazard, no excuse though).

So does that mean there was a 30 sign as there should be?

The only scenario I can think of where a limit might change without a sign would be NSL roads that change from single to dual carriageway or vice versa. Other changes should always be signed

[silentbrown]

Pica-Pica said:

Check that is the latest word, it was updated in 2016, revising distances.

Thanks. Latest is here, Page 74.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...

On a slightly different tack, we have 20 zone nearby which has no repeaters or obvious traffic calming. I can't see how that's enforceable?

[markiii]

thanks gents but the question I have is specifically when turning from road into road b.

if no signs do the previous limits apply or the assume 30 until signposted apply?

[Matt_E_Mulsion]

markiii said:

thanks gents but the question I have is specifically when turning from road into road b.

if no signs do the previous limits apply or the assume 30 until signposted apply?

Surely there will always be a change in the speed limit sign if the limit is different.

[silentbrown]

markiii said:

thanks gents but the question I have is specifically when turning from road into road b.

Without explicit signage, nothing changes. A road junction has no effect on the speed limit in force (unless you're turning onto or off a dual carriageway, I suppose)

If you think you missed a sign at the junction, then start using your usual spidey senses and checking for streetlights, repeaters, etc to work out what the limit is.

[markiii]

which is what i thought, yet can;t find it documented anywhere

[silentbrown]

markiii said:

which is what i thought, yet can;t find it documented anywhere

Page 68. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...

8.2.1.  A terminal sign to diagram 670 (S10‑2‑1, see Figure 8-1) should be used to indicate
the beginning of a maximum speed limit (except for 20 and 40 mph zones). Diagram 670 is
not used to indicate the national speed limit; the appropriate sign is diagram 671 (S10‑2‑2, see
Figure 8-2). All speed limits, except those for tramcars, are signed in miles per hour.

Even when you enter a section of restricted road (30mph, street lights) there's still a requirement for these terminal signs. A road junction makes absolutely no difference, so why would you expect it to be documented?

[markiii]

i guess because ones is traffic regs (which no one really reads) and I'd expect there to be guidance in the highway code for something that to me is open to argument

[JimbobVFR]

markiii said:

i guess because ones is traffic regs (which no one really reads) and I'd expect there to be guidance in the highway code for something that to me is open to argument

Do you have any examples? Personally I think the situation won't won't occur because if the limit changes there will be a sign.

[Pica-Pica]

JimbobVFR said:

Pica-Pica said:

Well, I did ask that question at a SAC last year. I had turned from a 40 dual carriageway, round a roundabout into another dual carriageway, which I assumed was still 40, because it always had been. We were asked to make a note of how we were speeding, and how to avoid it in future. My note was, ‘when turning into a new road, if you fail to see a sign, assume it is 30 until you have confirmation it is not, e.g. 40mph repeaters’.
I was doing 37. (I found it was marked as 30 but a bit close to, and partially obscured by, pedestrian crossing lights, I was concentrating on that imminent hazard, no excuse though).

So does that mean there was a 30 sign as there should be?

The only scenario I can think of where a limit might change without a sign would be NSL roads that change from single to dual carriageway or vice versa. Other changes should always be signed

Yes, my last sentence says that. I took photos, thought about appealing due to partial obscurity and proximity to a bright green crossing light, but decided it was not worth it.

[Bill]

JimbobVFR said:

markiii said:

i guess because ones is traffic regs (which no one really reads) and I'd expect there to be guidance in the highway code for something that to me is open to argument

Do you have any examples? Personally I think the situation won't won't occur because if the limit changes there will be a sign.

There's no guidance because it's not open to argument. If there's no sign, there's no change. And if there's a change with no sign any ticket can be challenged due to the lack of signage.

[markiii]

fair point I think where the challenge stems from is on my SAC they were adamant that no signs and lamposts means a 30 limit. Whereas I'm trying to counter with eveidence thats not the case as its dependant on previous signage

[Bill]

By "no signs" they mean no repeaters.

[BertBert]

markiii said:

fair point I think where the challenge stems from is on my SAC they were adamant that no signs and lamposts means a 30 limit. Whereas I'm trying to counter with eveidence thats not the case as its dependant on previous signage

The instructors on the SAC won't be interested in what happens where there is an inconsistency or mistake in signage. They'll always want you to fail safe. So if you are in a 30 marked by streetlights, observe the 30 limit. The possibility that the change from 40 to 30 was incorrectly marked is of no interest.
Bert

[Pica-Pica]

Bill said:

By "no signs" they mean no repeaters.

That is the way I read it.

[markiii]

my point being though the correct answer to the question is dependnant on the last signs prior to where the picture was taken